Nitto Gouki and defensive play

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
1

Look at this guy! I love it!!!
Never seen Nitto play anyone other than Yun but his Gouki is very much my style! It makes me happy to see him kicking ass with that type of play. Its a bit more defensive than many but his spacing is impeccable, as well as his patience. He even does some funny demon flip gimmicks that I try to use but again he’s pretty safe about the whole thing.
Merciless chip kills are nice too.:clapdos:

Many people seem to play Gouki as a serious rushdown character and it works very well due to his many offensive tools but this can also lead to his low health disappearing fast. I’ve always played him a bit more on the defensive side and when I used to play emulated 3s a pretty decent GGPO Ken told me I was “too safe”. He also told me i needed to work on my hit confirms which i have since addressed. (Thanks Mochimoto!)

I feel like there is a case for a more defensive Gouki. One who zone’s sorta mid range for pressure with more normals/fireballs and less combo attempts using lots of baiting or countering from that range unless the opponent’s down or in the corner. At the time of that conversation with the Ken I brought up Match, but Nitto here seems like the best example. I do realize that some match-ups invite a rushdown but…

What do ya’ll think about defensive style vs offensive style for the master of the Dark Hado?

2

Imo outside of the Hugo matchup its risky to play defensive with Gouki. Gouki doesn’t really have a great reversal tool like Ken does, so he can’t really get any damage from blocking. Gouki def has some unique defensive tools as far as zoning and staying away but I think those long drawn out battles just become riskier and riskier considering Gouki’s low stamina. I find when the momentum is on your side damage opportunities open up for you a lot more.

But I definitely always chip kill!

3

Trust me. Gouki’s offense is his best defense. As soon as you get knocked down its game over. I have a much harder time coming back after I get knocked than if I am rushing down and mixing up. Just watch Kuroda’s gouki. Dash in standing mk all day into SA1. Blatant jump ins with option select parry to low hitting triple tatsu combo. Best Gouki out there imo.

4

Personally Yuki Otoko was always my fav, CLayman. He just seemed to have a great balance of offense and defense and tricks. Kuroda is Kuroda so when I first saw his Gouki around SBO’08 I was floored by his original style and combos I didn’t know were possible. Kinda feel like he doesn’t count as a fav Gouki though. Nitto isn’t really my hero or anything I just like how friggin annoying his style seems. Also, could you please explain the option select parry jump in that Kuroda uses?

Hey pherai, if you’re on XBL I formally request some Gouki rushdown tutelage. Well really… some general feedback would be much appreciated too. Maybe you could show me how to apply rushdown to Ken since he has answers for so many of the rushdown tools. I tend to play that matchup a bit defensively until I get a good opening.

5

I know what you mean about Kuroda. Of course he’s my favorite Gouki, but its almost not fair to everyone else who plays him. Yuki would def be my fav after Kuroda.

sadly I don’t have XBL, but feel free to hit me up sometime (aim, fb, pm on SRK, w/e) cause I always love to help aspiring Gouki players. Ken is one of the matchups I have the most experience in so hopefully I can help you out!

6

Jump in with the option to parry opponents attack or go straight into tatsu. Basically your going to have to parry if they leave the ground before you. Then after your finished parrying their attack(s) you do an air tatsu. Which ends up being the perfect timing for the triple tatsu combo. You need an air tatsu that hits once and low to the ground for the correct timing. Then you walk forward a bit and try to get underneath the opponent as much as possible but don’t wait too long and do a RH tatsu which should hit two times and bounce the opponent very high on the second hit. Then immediately hold up forward and input tatsu as soon as you leave the ground for the tatsu to connect in the air as well. So there is three tatsus total. Two airborne tatsus, one after parry ,full hit one in the air, and two hit tatsu on ground.

This is all purely ridiculous. Me personally, I just do air tatsu, short tatsu, and fierce dp. Almost as much damage but definitey not as stylish. Jiro would be my favorite Gouki, actually was before I discovered Kuroda played Gouki.

Pherai, I will definitely put some of my Gouki vids up on the junkies website.

7

In '07 Jiro was arguably the reason I got serious about Gouki, maybe 3s in general. :woot:

oh and I will surely hit you up for some knowledge Pherai.

8

I’m not sure. It seems to me that Gouki is Kuroda’s unofficial man character now, so I would still count him.

9


^^So much fireball zoning from Daikichi in this match against Matsuken.

Speaking of defensive gouki play, look at this shit in the third round.


He has ken in the corner and two times in a row he does cr.lk x 2… with a jump back air fb followup!? No UOH, no dash up throw/cl.st.mk, no overhead chop, etc. Keeps the pressure on for a few moments with that weird tactic then back to that mid range zoning game once ken escapes the corner. This was back in '06 and 3s strategy has evolved since then, I know. Anyway this Daikichi guy show some similarities to Nitto in regards to my original post.

10

Hey, I remember reading and enjoying this thread a week or two ago, and now here the OP and I are having some ggs on XBL at this very moment. It’s a small world, after all! Or maybe “It’s a small 3S community, after all” is more accurate in this case… hahaha.

Disney World (or perhaps Disney World Tokyo) should make a ride called “It’s a Small Third Strike Community, After All,” and it could have animatronic versions of Frank the American originator smoking a joint, Nuki doing the parry/super to the EX fireball, of course Evo moment #37, and it could conclude with Gootecks and 5 Star doing the Third Strike Revival podcast and/or Pyrolee being really salty after losing the first Super Arcade 3S tourney.

11

I was just thinking about this thread I started as after I played you Poe. Your gouki, from what I observed, is kinda along the lines of what I was proposing. Hurray for patience and defense. :woot:

On the other hand, because of Pherai’s comments and some great matchup tips he’s been giving me I’ve forced myself to at lease try’n push the pressure more when the momentum is on my side. It feels so damn good when you are knocking someone around the screen or sufficating them in the corner and you get almost in their face and then just… stop. Panicked shoryukens are tasty rewards for a change of pace.

12

That’s funny haha It’s also funny that you say I’m more defensive because in AE (haven’t really played enough 3S yet for many knowledgeable people to have an opinion haha) I have people alternately tell me that my Akuma is a lot more footsie/zoning based than most (i.e. not your typical rushdown/mix-up style) and then “HOLY SHIT YOU HAVE A CRAZY BALLS OUT POSSIBLY MENTALLY ILL AKUMA.” HOPEFULLY this means that I have a complex style that can at times seem conservative and later unpredictable and wild… a generous interpretation but that’s the one I choose to go with :stuck_out_tongue:

One of the things that attracted me most about Akuma when I picked up vanilla SF4 and was trying to pick a main was that all signs pointed to Akuma being capable of either an extremely offensive style or an equally extreme defensive style. This was a huge “turn on” for me - the idea that I could adapt to just about any style of play or any character’s strengths at a moment’s notice. I thought Akuma was amazing from the beginning, well before the majority put him up there with Sagat and Ryu at the top, and honestly my being right was probably more luck than anything as I didn’t know enough about SF4 or fighting games to know for sure, but I wasn’t too far off the mark in the end… Akuma had no bad match-ups in vanilla. A lot of that is obviously due to him being, well, Akuma, a character who was designed to be strong, but I do chalk a lot of it up to specifically how well rounded he is - borderline broken damage with his combos and ultra, brutal mix-ups, and good normals on one side, on the other a teleport that’s actually pretty useful even in today’s OS-laden high level play and air fireballs. I love being creative, unpredictable, and feeling like I can stay one step ahead of my opponent, and SF4 Akuma’s massive array of options has allowed me to explore all of that with a lot of enjoyment and success.

As others have said, from what I’ve read and experienced, I do think Third Strike favors offense a lot more than SF4 does, and that has to be taken into account. Two of Akuma’s best defensive options in SF4 - the teleport and air fireball - are not nearly as useful in 3S. The teleport is not invincible (I’m still figuring out WTF is up with that because it starts up instantly, but I’ve been hit with Ken’s super when I reversal teleported, and I was told that the suction effect of Ken’s super makes the teleport fail), and air fireballs can of course be parried on the ground and even more relevantly in the air. Of course, the opponent does still have to parry them successfully which leads to his rhythm being broken and even vulnerability at close range. In some match-ups, too, you really can’t afford to stay back and let the opponent build meter for free just due to the 3S mechanics. So those things really add up. He does, though, have some nice 3S specific stuff that can be used in a defensive/pseudo-defensive/conservative game plan. His super 1 is amazing for chip damage wins, so that can allow you to close out some rounds in an extremely safe way. KKZ is also amazing for chip wins, and of course you have to be pretty close to your opponent to use it, but if you have a life lead in a round that would give you the win, there’s not a whole lot your opponent can safely do if you’re skilled at pulling the trigger on that utterly destructive bad boy… His far standing fierce is quite good as a defensive move in SF4 (and very underused…) and it seems to be even better in 3S, and his far roundhouse is much more defensive in 3S and I’ve gotten some good use out of it so far as a surprise antiair on certain characters. You’re gonna eat shit of course if those are parried… (wonder how many times someone’s said that hahaha) That’s about all I got at this hour and I realize I’m not breaking any new ground in 3S Akuma strategies, but as someone who just started playing, it helped me to think this through. In the end, given how offense-heavy 3S is, I would think that Akuma is better than a lot of characters, especially if we limit it to the B+ through S level characters, at slowing things down if he so chooses.

13

I will warn you that generally in any of the 3s threads on SRK comparisons to SF4 or really just bringing SF4 up at all will get lots of fire coming your way. Luckily this thread doesn’t get much traffic. Also you seem to have fallen into a trap I find myself in sometimes on these forums; you’re post is so damn long dude.

Defensive Gouki is a long and kinda boring road to walk in the land of 3rd Strike. He can certainly switch from offense to defense well enough but its not like SF4 at all.

Be vary sparing with his far st.hk as a standard anti air. It can be good to catch a jump as the opponent leaves the ground if space correctly though. Also, please please please be more careful with your cr.mk into lk.tatsu. It seems safer online than it really is. Just a few suggestions.

14

Thanks for the tips. Far hk is obviously pretty slow and I’ll take your advice and not get in the habit of doing it too much. I know that I have to tone down the lk tatsu. I’ve really just been lazy about learning some of the other stuff I can replace it with (mk tatsu into mk shoryu, getting better at short short super), but again you’re right that it’s time to push forward with that. My only question is that I know mk tatsu is significantly less safe than hk tatsu… is it still tough enough for most characters/players to punish that it’s worth doing over hk tatsu for the extra damage?

Very good call on the SF4 thing. There’s a silly but IMO understandable reason why I did that: because your question immediately brought to mind my quest to figure out the “right way” to play 3S Akuma, which for me has involved a whole lot of comparisons to SF4 Akuma, I foolishly assumed you were asking for the same reason I would. It’s been enlightening and a lot of fun for me to learn about 3S’s system and 3S Akuma and to tweak my gameplay in both games accordingly. Because SF4 was the first game I ever played competitively and, until 3SOE came out, the only game I played for a long time, it’s very easy for me to start thinking that way, especially after the years of “3S is God” and “3S is ass” build-up I’ve endured. I do apologize to you and to anyone who doesn’t give a fuck about SF4 Akuma.

I feel you on the post length, but I also think that’s a matter of opinion. Regardless of topic, the best forums that I’ve been to over the years have all had posters who enjoyed writing about what they loved and regularly put some effort into their posts. Some posts only require a few words or sentences, but you asked a really open ended question that I’ve been thinking a whole lot about lately. Maybe I just like reading more than most people, but I don’t consider a few legit paragraphs a particularly long piece of writing. I really don’t get it. Seems I’m in the minority, but I feel pretty strongly about it, so if I feel like writing a “long” post, I’m going to, even if it means annoying some people. If some people don’t want to take a couple of minutes to read what I have to say, they can freaking skip it, and in most cases I’d probably rather they did.

15

You have no idea how important it is to learn as many different ways to get damage against your opponent as possible with Gouki. You can’t ever have a decent offense with this character if you aren’t constantly changing things up. This is something imo you never can relax about and feel like youve learned enough.

Every move has its use, and EVERY version of tatsumaki is legit as fuck, even speaking strictly about punishes. You need to learn every combo from lk tatsu, mk tatsu, or rh tatsu. Sometimes your strongest punish requires a mk tatsu into uppercut.

As far as the safeness of the move, none of the versions are really safe. Goukis tatsumaki is like ST vega wall dive. Its cheap as hell, but there is a counter. In fact, almost the entire cast can punish the move (without the need to parry) as long as the player is sharp.

16

According to http://ensabahnur.free.fr/
lk tatsu has 17 frames of recovery, block advantage is -12.
mk tatsu has 16 frames of recovery, block advantage is -8.
hk tatsu has 10 frames of recovery, block advantage is -5.
Pherai generally explained why they’re all important in spite of being punishable. Also, tagging a hk tatsu onto the end of a mk tatsu can be great for pushing your opponent into the corner.

Go ahead and post long posts, I do it occasionally and a few others do it (look’n at you DevilJin01!) but many might skip it or give you a bit of crap unless you have some cred. Just a heads up is all. Post away and don’t let the trolls get ya down.

17

Pherai and Funland, thanks for the tatsu info. I was just in training mode practicing mk tatsu into mp shoryu.

Amen.