NEW Street Fighter aka. SF 2.5/3.5: The Parry Debate

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
1

Not sure what to call it yet.

After weeks of fruitless debate between the few of us guys in the small town of Ottawa (capital of Canada) about the effects of parry on 3s and no conclusion later, we finally tried 3s with parry disabled via system directions. Now I know a lot of you love parry, and some of you hate it. I’m a hater so neg me now.

The argument is that parry removes spacing and long range battles and reduces the game to the same basic mixups over and over again. While parry lovers, enjoy their “risks” of parry, and complex multi faceted mental struggles with their opponent.

First off, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed 3s without parry, our other parry haters enjoyed it too, while the parry lovers seemed to enjoy it less. I want to note that just because we hate parry doesn’t mean we can’t play the game and can’t parry.

I also want to make the point that I found that the parry hater argument is absolutely true. Fireballs were all of a sudden a force to be reckoned with. Strategies had to all of sudden be created to deal with them, and tools that we never really used (or knew existed for that matter) were implemented.

I found I wasn’t playing the classic Ken vs Ken match with both players at arms length poking each other with c.MK all day. Fireballs were being tossed across the screen, fireball traps were back, we began spacing and learning to fight with tools we never used from a further distance. Meter was now used much more for EXs than before, reducing the super centric style of previous 3s play.

Ryu became ridiculous tier for the night with unparryable denjin setups. Akuma moved to the top briefly with air fireball (everyone has a solution to this so it’s not ST with a need to ban him).

The game plays a bit like SF2, with fireball traps being the norm, but with a greater amount of solutions (uppercuts are nothing close to invincible) and a less game over style spacing advantage (wakeup isn’t reversal or die).

Basically, I want this thread to be intelligent discussion pertaining to the topic at hand. I don’t want to see the degeneration of it into parry sucks vs. parry is awesome with neither side conceding their ideals. I ask people to post with an open mind with opinions, strategy and suggestions.

Feedback from people who’ve tried it and their opinions, strategies for people who may try playing this style of game and perhaps further changes in the directions to balance the game.

2

How about u play in Toronto

3

Wow, it only took one reply for a potentially interesting thread to turn to shit! That’s got to be some sort of record. Congratulations, AneurysmX.

On topic, I liked 3S until I started to really appreciate ST, and now I really don’t like it much. I perfer the spacing/zoning aspect of 2D fighters because, well, that’s what they inherently do best. The cool point-blank guessing games are fine, but not without my fireball traps. It’s kind of weird, since in 3S you see such impressive things happen in current matches, but at the same time the game seems so dry to me because of the range games take a backseat to footsies/empty cancelling/baiting.

That’s fine, though. 3S is a game that represents that aspect of the game extremely well.

4

interesting thought. i know if i were to play without parries i would mop the floor with him because he has little knowlege of footsies but tries to make up with it by parrying anything and everything. at times i wish there weren’t parries, but then again it forces you to think ahead of your opponent.

5

I’m not exactly clue’d up on this, but why not make projectiles un-parryable? It puts most of the zoning game back in, but will still let you get out of closerange pressure strings.

meh

6

The reason parries were added was because scrubs bitch about fireballs.

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Do people use fireballs even WITH Parries in the game? Yes? why do you think that is? DISCUSS.

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I think Fireballs still give you the ability to control the pace of a fight without parrying, but the traps are lost. I personally like both (I’ve come to love 3S in recent months, and ST is my favorite fighter). I can see some characters becoming outrageously better with no parries though, especially Ryu.

Some other characters I’d wonder about:

Elena - Now that her moves like Spin Scythe, Mallet Smash and Rhino Horn aren’t parryable, that can make certain aspects of her mixup game more potent, perhaps?

Hugo - Would lack of parrying hurt or help Hugo?

Remy - Sweet lord…now you have to manuver through those fireballs without parrying any of them? Although it won’t make him an O.Sagat or something, I wonder what it would do for Remy’s game?

Sean - Would Sean be any better if Ryuubi Kyaku Wasn’t parry bait? It’s pretty safe on block, so if you’re smart about going into it, I think it can be dangerous.

Alex and Urien - What I think of immediately is that their dashing attacks (Slash Elbow and Chariot Tackle, respecitvely) are really safe on block… Would it be even safer to get in on opponents Alex and Urien? Would it give him a way to approach people on the ground safely?

These are just a few things I thought of off the top of my head; these ideas might be easy to debunk, but I just thought I’d throw them out there for you theory fighters.

9

Ironically with parry fireballs become better at closer range; point blank range even. EX fireballs with Ken and Ryu are still a force to be reckoned with.

As for parry itself, I hate it. I will admit that I find players who are skilled at parrying and can read the opponent within the first match are very good players indeed! My problem isn’t so much with parry itself but in the way I was raised to play fighters. I mostly grew up with SFA3. So my strategy there (I played Chun mostly) was to get in their face and span nigh invincible poke strings till their block guage exploded or till I was in position to cross-up with her God-like lk and hit them with the back of her canyon sized thigh. With 3S, if you go on with the continued poke strings, you’re toast.

Unfortunately I also have the (dis)pleasure of playing the best player in Saskatoon (we play every weekend) and he parries … everything. It seems that for us the game has become a set around ways to get in to throw your opponent; it’s all so very lame and predictable, but the way 3S is set-up, disgustingly effective.

He pokes, walks up throws, goes for another throw, or dashes back, then forward, throws, throws me on wake-up … over-head and throws … throws thrOWS THROWS. ARGH.

I personally hate parry, but it doesn’t mean it’s a bad system. This is just my position growing up with poke strings and a more traditional style of fighting. The best advice that the so called top player gives me? Be random. WTF? It feels weird playing completely random in 3S, especially since my player is Remy. He doesn’t exactly have a lot to work with. It’s just frusterating is all.

10

d+lp+lk? :stuck_out_tongue:

ST and 3s are both kinda extream. even in ST you can sometimes see matches where the only thing the ryu player is doing is spamming fireballs.

11

Lack of Parrying actually is bad for Hugo cause he loses much of his defense, especially since Hugo is no Gief (Gief’s movelist is much better all-around imho). On top of that, Hugo would not be dramatically improved offense-wise if his opponents had no parry. That’s the way I see it anyway.

Personally, I only play 3s casually so I’m no one to talk. But I do play a lot of Garou, and have been for years. Parry/JD removes the fireball traps but the fireballs are still a way to pace the game, if not to zone (that last point is highly arguable depending on the level of the players) but what I like of parry systems is that it forces people to take some risks when they tended to rely on long range play and/or clock turtling, especially among not-noob-but-not-so-good players. Of course, it has some great downsides but all in all it’s rather good I think.

12

I have mixed feelings about parrying. For one it encourages wimping which I personally am not too fond of… two, it turns out it’s a universal substitute for those so-called psychich-dp’s, which is great for balance…

Sonic_Reaper… I know what you mean. But I think if you just attack less (when blocked), and use more LK and LP, you’ll give the other a much harder time parrying. I think the window is virtually non-existant after parrying a LK too. And fuck Chun Li.

EX moves were a brilliant idea :tup:

And uh. My fireballs are used just as much here as in other games. My goal is to make them freeze for a moment while I hurry over.

13

Interesting. I will try playing without parries later today.

My feelings about parrying are kinda mixed. Parrying is really effective (for reasons already mentioned), but it kinda kills other aspects of the game (as already pointed out). To me it’s more fun when used sparingly or in do or die situations ("Whoo! Let’s Go Justin!"haha). It’s impressive to watch someone parry a Kikou-shou, but it gets old fast. Not to mention the idea of getting punished for simply attacking can be a little over-bearing at times.

14

Losing the parry would be awful for Hugo and Q. Some characters have setups that they literally cannot beat without parry (or super), and others would be so annoying as to be near 2-8 or even 1-9 matchups. The parry is one of the main reasons 3S is anything close to being balanced. Sounds like it would be fun to mess around without being able to parry, though.

I don’t love or hate the parry, it’s just one of the game’s things. Third Strike without the parry would be retarded, since the characters and their moves were all designed around having the parry available. Some characters are only competitive because of the parry; others, without the parry, would become too good.

Super Turbo is more about spacing and reward for successful application of strategy, while Third Strike is more about wakeups, reactions, and guessing correctly, and not just because of the parry. Both are great games, my two favorites, but they’re different, and that’s fine.

15

Parrying as still been a big challenge to me so I definitely wouldn’t downplay it at all even against a light attack.

I like the parry system cause I absolutely hate when players completely rely on the “fireball chipping while opponent is rising” and it gives cornered wall players a fighting chance.

16

Akuma would be near unstoppable in certain matchups without parry. Hugo would NEVER be able to even touch him.

17

Dear god, the shitty characters would be unplayable with being able to parry. Yun, Chun, Ken, Akuma, and Yang I think would own everyone so bad. Pretty much any character with fast multi-hitting moves would become better because there would be so few breaks between attacks. Slower characters would never get to create openings and take advantage of the other player’s predictable offense.

This discussion shouldn’t even be taking place. 3S is almost 7 years old and if you don’t like the way it is, play something else. You’re wasting your time thinking about what could’ve been.

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Completely rely? In ST, where this would be most prevalent, you can only cause chip with one fireball each time the opponent wakes up, and there are ways out of it (reversals). Why should someone in the corner be given a fighting chance? The round didn’t start there, so surely they did someone that resulted in them being moved to the corner. If being in the corner is the same as being in the middle of the stage, what is the purpose of the corner?

EDIT Hay guys, we know 3S would be broken apart if parry were removed, it was designed with parry in mind. Let’s please not discuss that, it’s about as worthy of discussion as WHAT IF YOU TURN ON AUTO PARRY?

19

Nothing at all against the OP, but I find that most people who complain about parry, simply dont have the skill to pull the shit off. I do understand the idea that parry changes the game of SF from its traditional roots, but SF3 isnt meant to be Old School SF…its an evolution, and thus parries belong in just as much as anything else. I guess the point is, what makes SF3 different from the other SF games if one of the main new features is taken away?

With that said, maybe I will try it just for fun, and in the interest of being open minded.

20

Actually, a lot of the low tier characters move way up with the removal of parry. Remy for one obviously, who can actually use the tools given to him. But how many of you knew that Twelve could walk under fireballs? Makoto can dash under them? Dudley can dash through them? Alex can stomp over them? Chun li can c.MK or c.MP under them? ex fireball to punish etc.

I disagree. Tools were given to all these characters to deal with fireballs, but how many of you actually were forced to figure them out when there was parry? Here is the first example that the removal of parry has opened up a wide range of strategy.

On the subject of tiers, Hugo gets the biggest axe. Tick throws essentially don’t exist (compared to sf2 anyway). His 4 frame jump makes getting around fireballs essentially impossible (actually if I recall he should be able to clap them, but denjin vs. Hugo is pretty much guaranteed from anywhere now). I think Chun-Li gets a huge axe, her lack of effective anti-air means she’ll be eating jump ins a heck of a lot more.

The lack of option select parry is one of my favourite elements of this game. No longer is jumping in retarded, jumping is still risky, but shoto dragon punches are so weak in this game it’s very easy to get around. Super jump movement means you often cross over the dragon punch, air ex hurricane kicks always get around dragon punches etc. How many of you knew that? air ex hurricane as a solution to dragon punch anti-air?

Parry was always annoying against stuff like safe jumps (wait how many of you non SF2 players know what that is?). But honestly, you can have your mix up games on wake up and in the corner, but I feel strongly that a lot of strategy that was absent in 3s due to parry returns.