you can still walk, jump over, dash, throw, parry yourself, guess the high/low correctly, purposely throw out attacks that get parried high AND low and cancel into a high priority move on reaction to parry(just like countering ac), and delay your attacks. Some of these options protect you even after you get parried, forcing the opponent to parry, then block. Those are at least 8 options against parries, and only one of them won’t lose to fadc.
Man, it’s not that easy landing a chain into GJ for full damage. Usually it’s just Yun activating off something blocked into super cheddar GJ which still results in decent damage. Still Yun manages to dominate cause of how often he gets GJ.
And dude…far strong, Shippu is not 20% lol it’s more like 1/3 life on Yun.
This is one of the big things that I don’t like about SF4, and actually a lot of games after ST to a varying degree. SF2 was very offense-based because of two things: 1)Everyone could do big damage at any time 2)Almost nothing is hit-confirmable. I got into SF4 really late and I’m having fun with it I guess. But it feels like most match-ups are just a bunch of dancing around and looking for an opening to land a big combo. It feels a lot like when you play a Ken in HF that does nothing but try to land cross-up, HP xx HP SRK. I’m obviously over-simplifying here, but in SF4 you can replace that with jab, jab, jab into whatever for many characters. Some differ a bit, but it still seems mostly like it’s goofing around with the guy until you can land you big damage thing.
It seems like the characters that are good in SF4 are simply the ones who either have the most ways to land their big damage thing or have the most ways to harass you until you eventually screw up something small, which allows them to land their big damage. And bonus points if they have both. I do think there’s a lot of fun and variety to be had in the game. And I do appreciate match-ups being important. But I’m really not so crazy about all the safe semi-no-risk play into hit-confirm crap. Sometimes I feel like the opponent wants to bore me into losing, rather than actually beat me.
I honestly think that you could take SF4, with the same characters, the same moves, and the same systems (Focus/Ultra/Armor break) and do absolutely nothing except for changing the frame data and some hitboxes and turn it into a markedly sharper and more offense-based game. While I think it’s fun enough to play, it really, feels sloppy and rushed. From simple things like goofy hit-boxes making cross-ups whiff at seemingly random to more glaring things like Balrog having 8 days to juggle headbutt into Ultra while many people’s juggles are incredibly exacting in spacing and timing. If a ton of things were polished up and tweaked, I think it would feel a lot more solid.
/rambling
Here is hoping that SSF4 makes some of these very needed tweaks, could happen, ya never know…
I hope to god they do. I love the game for all the new players and publicity but it needs tweaking for sure
SF4 does need tweaking, but please remember to look at it in context. I’m sure this point has been raised before, but it’s worth keeping it fresh in your minds.
Taking all other Capcom ‘first attempts’ at a Street Fighter No. series, e.g. SF2, SF3, SF Zero/Alpha, SF4 is actually really… really good. It’s possibly a better ‘first attempt’ than the first attempts of any of those, bar perhaps Street Fighter Zero, even if it was broken.
This is how it’s always worked. Capcom enters blindly into trying to make a ‘new’ Street Fighter, puts it out, gets feedback and makes it better. If what we’re hearing about SSF4 is true then it’s definately going to be better than SF4.
I mean, be real with me here. SF4 is good. It’s a lot better than New Generation was.
This is not to say that being the first attempt exempts SF4 from criticism. Hardly. The entire point is that these criticisms are removed in the next instalment. It’s a natural process.
Totally agree, and I really do hope that is what happens with Super.
There’s nothing more I could say that jchensor hasn’t said 10x better. I’m just going to save that post in case this type of topic comes up again (it almost certainly will).
Agreed 100%. I think people have gotten spoiled with options, options for this situation, options for that situation…if you use an option and get into this situation…well, here’s another one!
I also like having limited options, and being forced to best utilize what you have. Having options means you have to think about which one to use when - not having them means thinking more about not getting put into situations where you’re screwed, and coming up with ways not to die if you do somehow end up in that position. The fight against every character is different, and even that changes between player styles.
Too many options can be a double edged sword really, let’s take CvS2 as example [I love that game, but It’s a great example]
You have 6 different modes to choose from, increasing the chances for every character to be tourney viable than in a “1 mode only” FG
However, balancing is way more hard, considering that even a change for a jab can wreck havoc if an abuse is found with one of the modes selectable, you have to consider every groove and see if the changes will be actually balancing and not runing
Again, as I’ve said I thought Capcom was “rushing” SF IV only to release future versions for it.Tbh, I was sure of it before I even got to play SF IV. But I also think that they first wanted to check how the old cast deals with some of the mechanics from existing games [We never had EX Guile,Blanka,Honda… etc]. I guess that we can say that they adopted quite good with the current systems, thus allowing the addition of other systems. And should I even mention how many systems and tweaks and changes were added from WW to ST and from NG to 3s?
Oh, and I totaly agree about SF IV being the best “first attempt” game. Never understood why people keep comparing 3s to it. Sure 3s is better, 3s is a FINALIZED product. Capcom probably added all of what they were planing and didn’t need 7 versions to do so [In SF2 it seemed more like “experimenting” than adding]. SF IV = NG in terms of first installment, I know, people will agree that Capcom should learn from the past and make a “finalized” game since the beginning and only release some tweaking and balance revisions, but, Capcom is first of all a Company. They want to make profit, and why would they release a finalized game when SF2 and SF3’s versions all milked out pretty damn well? When there millions and millions of SF games sold before the final versions were even announced? Which proved my first point - Capcom “forgot” some stuff in order to “correct” them on the next sequel
I also agree 100%. SF4 is the purest SF game since ST, but without the BS. You have to know the matchups, and favorites of mine such as zoning, footsies, and mind games reign supreme.
It is a bad match-up, probably Honda’s worst. But one bad match-up doesn’t really ruin him. I mean, it’s one of Rufus’s worst match-ups as well, but Rufus is still top tier, right? That’s the thing about match-ups that are so beautiful. I mean, in ST, Dhalsim and Vega are both supposed counter characters to Ryu. But good Ryu players, like Choi and Daigo, WILL overcome those matches no matter what. Ryu is still top tier, despite losing to two other top tier characters. Because Match-ups are SO SPECIFIC between two characters, people WILL find ways to overcome bad match ups.
Yeah, I have no arguments that Sagat is a little overpowered. But the thing is: he’s still beatable! He’s still the weakest top tier character ever in any SF game.
So what this ends up meaning is that CvS2 is really similar to MvC2. MvC2 doesn’t have character balance, but TEAM balance. It’s more how MSP fares against Santhrax and such.
So really, a Blanka or Bison based team counters YOUR team which needs Iori as a battery. And even still, if they happen to put Bison or Blanka at the END of their queue, then it doesn’t even counter it automatically.
Yeah, there are definitely character speific matchups, but notice how Iori failing to be a battery affects LATER matches as well. It’s just a sign, to me, that individual match-ups are as strong. I mean, if there were no teams in the game, there would be threads upon threads of “How do I beat Sagat with Maki?!?” And Maki players would get hella good at countering Sagat, because they’d have no choice. But as it is, it’s not much of a problem.
See, I just can’t agree with that. We just don’t know. We just DON’T KNOW. And the sad part is we will never know, so no one can ever come up to me and say, “I told you so.” I mean, I thought we knew everything about every game fairly early on. In fact, I was so close-minded once a long time ago to call for a ban on X-Dhalsim in Alpha 3 because he was “broken”. Now, X-Dhalsim is the WORST of the three Dhalsims in Alpha 3. It’s impossible to say. It’s just too hard to predict that SFIV has reached its limit, especially when, as I mentioned before, characters like Honda are jumping up in ranks and such. And Rufus has been slowly on the decline since the game came out. Option Select Tech Throw / Anti-Dive Kick has really put a damper on Rufus’s general gameplan, and it’s only recently been being used by top players. So we don’t know anything yet.
I KNEW you were gonna call me out on that. Hahahahahaha. I still have them on my hard drive, swear to God. Maybe I’ll just encode them in some random format with no editing and give them to you as a present for your unborn son when he… becomes… born. Hahaha. That sounds weird.
But isn’t that the same with a fully metered Cammy in P-Groove in CvS2? Or a fully metered Ryu vs. Dhalsim in ST? That’s just been part of the game forever, right?
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That’s still guessing. I hate guess Parries. I don’t think people should be rewarded that much for a guess, and the rewards ARE huge.
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Most of the time, you get hit by Genei-Jins. Agianst experts, you will eventually get comboed about 80% of the Genei Jin activations. And by the time it’s done, he’s pretty much already ready for the next one. The Timer wasn’t even good enough! And yeah, experts can avoid getting hit by Genei-Jins. But… experts will also avoid getting hit by FADCs. At least you can easily punish whiffed FADCs whereas a naked Genei Jin is oftentimes a REAL strategy.
But FADCs can’t be Option Selected. I can parry Option Select into a Throw, right? So even Blocking isn’t safe against Parries. But with an FADC, Blocking, which is BY FAR the safest move in 90% of Street Fighters, is the BEST way to defend against an FADC. Really, you can only get Thrown or hit by an Ovehead, both of which do VERY minimal damage. If your opponent manages to Throw you 7 times in a row, dude, you just got Thrown 7 times in a row. FADCs aren’t your problem. 
I know I’ve even been impressed when people manage to block three uppercuts in a row with FADCs in between them all, but it’s still the best tactic… because even if they try to throw you, another complaint is that Teching is too easy in SF. All these things balance each other out, or they have so far. It’s like… A is broken, B is broken, but because A and B exist, neither is broken. But people will complain about it anyhow!
So a couple of things:
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Most of the best characters in any fighting game are the ones who have the most ways to land big damage or have the most ways to harass you until you eventually screw up. I can name a Fighting Game where this isn’t the case. Is the best character ever one who sucks in a bunch of categories? That just doesn’t make sense.
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The funny thing about ST vs. SFIV is that ST required NO hit confirms because everything was safe!! Fei could Rekka and be safe every time. Balrog, Bison, and Honda could all charge at you basically for free. All Fireball characters could Fireball you and Dee Jay can Dread Kick you. And on and on. THERE WAS NO NEED TO HIT CONFIRM in ST because the best combo to do was ALSO the best sequence to do when they blocked!!! If all Special Moves were made less safe like they are in SFIV, then yes, we would need hit confirms in ST as well. But fact of the matter is that ST circumvents hit confirms solely on the concept that hit confirms aren’t needed.
I agree 100%. SFIV is flawed, and flawed in some fairly significant ways. But I see it more fair: all games are flawed, and as many people have pointed out, this is a first effort, and most first efforts have turned but horrible. But the fact that we don’t have Guy/Akuma killing everyone, Nakoruru killing everyone, etc. etc. is nothing short of amazing. AND the game is actually fun for many, many, many people. That’s gotta say something about the game. So rather than focus on the negatives regarding SFIV, I like to look at what makes it good.
I did want to say that, while you ended your post with a “/rambling” close, I thought your post was really well thought out, SJV. I appreciate the WAY you approached why you think SFIV was bad, without resorting to baseless critiques that complain about stupid, trivial things. And that even you admit there is a huge potential for the game to be better. So thank you, and everyone else like DevilJin and such, for keeping things civil and keeping things a fun debate.
I may have to write up a really long and non-flammatory post about HDR and why I think OGs dislike it for you, SJV, as a means to repay you.
- James
I should’ve worded my stance a bit better. You’re obviously right. Of course the characters with the best tools to deal damage will be best. The thing I object to is that most of the best stuff in SF4 involves hit-confirms. My objection isn’t to some character’s having better tools than others. That’s bound to happen. It’s that most of those tools don’t require much risk.
There are many examples of this, but I’ll talk about one of the most common that I find counter-intuitive in SF4. Most Ultras don’t work as anti-airs, yet most of the good ones work very well of easily hit-confirmable setups. To me, that’s dumb. I assume that the reason why most supers/ultras have SO many start-up frames is to reduce the number of hit-confirm setups, but the irony is that’s not how it really works in practice.
For example, Gouken has a SRK super and ultra. And yet, unless your opponent really screws up with an obvious early jump-in, it’s almost impossible to anti-air them with super/ultra. And yet, back throw -> ultra or palm xx super is super easy to do…if you land those. Don’t get me wrong. I main Gouken, so I’m not bitching about him having those setups per se, its just dumb to me that that’s the BEST way to land those things. While I don’t like how you land those things, he’s actually at a disadvantage, since it’s hard to land those. Other characters have way more reasonable, but still dumb, setups into super/ultra. So, my main objection is that these moves aren’t useful where you’d normally consider them a good call, but are useful off dumb crap like jab, jab, short xx headbutt, trade SRK, fwd + HK, etc.
What I think is superior in older games is that your opponent either blatently left themselves wide open and you landed big damage or you guessed right and got big damage. But in SF4, you seldom throw away your big damage meter. You don’t need to wait for your opponent to screw up royally. Instead, you fish and fish and fish until they throw out some random wrong quick poke, and then take it to the bank. And again, the top tier are better at that mechanic, which i consider dumb. That’s the part i don’t like.
That’s the other thing I find undesirable in SF4. I’ve been trying to embrace it for what it is. But frankly, while mashing counter during block strings and stopping block strings short to bait mashed counters is an added mind game, it feels dumb to me. I’d MUCH rather have block strings be much safer. People tend to bitch about easy-to-mash reversals, but that’s not really the problem IMO. It’s that it’s really, really hard for people to consistently hit their block strings. I don’t find any real added value to that.
I totally agree. I’ve been trying, hard as it is, to just embrace the dumb tactics that exist in SF4 and play it for what it is. I also really, really hope these things get tightened up for super. But, in SF4 as it stands, it’s really tough to do that. It feels like 90 out of 100 best-tactics are as dumb as Chun’s walk forward mash strong in ST. Ya, you can get around it. But it’s like so many of the “best” tactics feel so scrubby as to infuriate you. In older games, the dumb but powerful tactics existed for sure. It just didn’t seem like there were as many of them as there are in SF4.
I do agree with this. And ironically, I think it’s mostly due to the “scrubby” ultras. It actually cracks me up that most people list most match-ups in this game is 5-5 or 6-4. IMO, there are TONS of matches which seem way, way more mis-matched than that. Thing is, once whichever character has the actual advantage starts beating up the other guy, he gets ultra. Once that happens it then becomes way more defensive, since the “bad” character can even things up in a jiffy. It’s not that the move sets are really balanced. It’s just that the chance to come back is so possible in this game as to sort of even things out. In most ways, I think that’s really helped what seems like a typical first effort to me. In other ways, I loathe it.
I hear ya. I’ve been trying really hard to just accept and embrace the shit I find dumb in this game. Every game has some crap that seems way to easy and way too over-powered. Tick-throws in SF2, CC blowout in A2, etc. But it’s been a tough pill to swallow. Like I say, I think SF4 has TONS of these things. Still, it is definitely fun if you can get past that crap. If super removes a lot of these, I think it’ll turn into a GREAT game!
No problem. I realize that my old-school sensibilities don’t apply to everyone. And I’ve really tried hard to enjoy SF4 for what it is. It is exceptionally successful in some areas IMO. It’s made 2-D fighters look flashy. It’s made total newb players feel like they actually have a chance. I really do applaud all these things, because frankly, this genre needed those things BADLY. I also appreciate a quasi back-to-basics approach where projectiles matter, match-ups matter, and spacing matters. So, I do like a lot of the essence of SF4 and I appreciate what they tried to do and how close they got to achieving that goal. Still, it feels rushed and I think there’s a LOT of room for improvement left and I’ll just hold out hope that super delivers on that.
LOL! You can if you want. But honestly, at this point I’ve talked to enough people that I think I pretty much get it. As far as I can tell, it’s a simple combo of a)being mad at sirlin b)not wanting to learn a new variant on a game that’s as familiar as the back of your hand c)not liking the changes to the character you play. I’ve talked to TONS of people over the last year. Some big names, some lesser known people. And its pretty much the same story every time. I literally don’t think I’ve ever heard ONE person ever make a cogent argument for how HDR is less balanced or has qualities that make it devolve in any major way. It’s always small gripes against very specific situations or matches and not about the overall playability of the game.
And to be honest…at this point, I somewhat don’t care anymore. I think HDR is a more balanced game with less bullshit. I find ST inferior simply because ST it has Vega wall dive spam and O.Sagat. None of the other changes matter to me in the big picture. Plus, my main is better in ST. So yeah…I just kinda don’t care that much anymore. I think HDR is better, and think it should be the main game these days, but if I end up playing ST, that’s fine too. :wgrin:
SweetJohhnyV:
> What I think is superior in older games is that your opponent either blatently left themselves wide open and you landed big damage or you guessed right and got big damage.
Actually, it really depends on how far back you want to go. Because in SF2, “big damage” was relative. You couldn’t land 50+% ToD combs very often, but you could get usually get a solid 20%-23% damage for a single throw or 25-30% for a simple normal -> special. And of course, a lot of the times you could get huge damage off a single special move. Moreover, a LOT of stuff was safe, either on hit or on block. So a lot of the old games revolved around more frequent episodes of fairly significant life loss inbetween the occasional weak hits or single attacks that didn’t do much.
In modern games, though, the damage is less while either still being hard to land or even harder to land than before, so you have to rely on the stuff that gives you the most bang for the buck for your opening. You can’t do 25% for a single throw anymore (unless you’re Gief), but you can now hit confirm into an EX special/super, or hit confirm into EX special, tack on juggle Ultra. The occasional weak hits have become weaker, but the instances of significant life loss are now much more painful. Moreover, even if they’re less frequent, they seem disproportionately safe because everything else is much less safe than it used to be, which makes those instances stand out more.
The fact is, getting hit with SFIV Boxer c.LPx3, headbutt, Ultra isn’t much different in damage than getting hit by Boxer c.MK,c.MP, dash sweep, and significantly less than eating two headbutt throws from ST/HDR Boxer. It’s just that Boxer has other tools he might want to use in ST/HDR because they’re good to use, while there isn’t much incentive for SFIV Boxer to do much else than fish for c.LP and the occasional sweep.
That’s why, in order to make the significance of comboing into Ultra less, there is a need to seriously beef up the offense for other characters.
lmfao@the randomness
The matchup is one of the worst in the game period. Shit is ass terrible and Honda can’t do jack shit but lose or try to win and just lose. I think there’s just basic things that need to be done to Sagat to make it easier for Honda but until now I can’t see Honda being a TOP TIER character as long as Sagat is in the game.
True in a sense but that’s why SFIV is so bleh for me. He’s the weakest top tier of any SF game but he just is generally one of the only characters in the game that really has anything powerful or interesting. Most of the characters under him win with really processed strategies and mind games that last overly long and drawn out due to the nature of SFIV’s system. Everything else but Ultras doing shit damage and jabs being the only block strings that don’t carry a shit ton of risk. Hopefully Super addresses this issue and makes the game less of a watered down ST.
I dunno what to say about this really. I mean yeah a fully metered P groove Cammy can nullify a lot of fucking shit but A groove is still coming for her ass with the quickness and she still has very low health to boot. P groove Cammy has a real nullfication on a lot of the offensive shit in the game but there’s still plenty of things that offensively kick the shit out of character using P groove. Sagat and Ryu don’t have either of that. Plus anything you do after a parry offensively requires risk and there’s still move incentive to get within throwing range or use mind games like empty jumps to move in on a P groove Cammy. Ryu in SFIV is just looking to FADC Ultra all that shit. When the highest bar SFIV has to offer is P groove Cammy that’s kinda where the problem is in the first place. I’d still rather fight P groove Cammy over a Ryu that can shoryu safely. There’s still more gimmicks and offense you can play against P groove Cammy.
The guess parry thing didn’t really IMO have much to do with the argument I was trying to make but whatever. Genei Jin had some stupid attributes to it but again…Yun was severely stripped down of a character without Genei Jin. Those were your chances to get in and beat him. Ryu without FADC Ultra is still better than most of the characters in the game. When watered down Ryu is the threshold for SF that isn’t a whole lot of interesting to be had. Boring game. For me any ways. I guess some people like what the offense is like in the current SFIV but it’s not for me anymore.
Even so the Yun player still has to get in your face once he gets Genei Jin to do anything serious with it and there’s a clear point in time where you should just not press much. Yeah you’ll probably take some damage any ways but there are plenty more reasons to pressure Yun outside of Genei Jin than pressuring Ryu holding onto meters just strippin shit from the game. For something that takes that much away from the game there should be a little more execution or just plain old strategic about it. Yeah sure you can backdash or walk back to try to make shoryus whiff but that’s the whole point. You’re doing more things that require defense to stay away from something that beats everything offensive. Which if the Ryu players catches on to that you’re forced to deal with his normals and he gets in your face and pushes you closer to the corner where making the shoryu whiff will be even more difficult.
Overall Super needs to buff character’s tool sets so dry riskless gameplay isn’t the only way to beat the good characters of the game. Oh and less of this stuff that totally strips everything offensive you have available. Sure some of the older games had things which did similar effects but I still hold on to the idea that there were more ways to deal with those things. In SFIV it’s basically just Ryu and Sagat continuing to win and be able to pressure situations like they were in ST though now they just have new options for doing so that limit the other character’s even further from attacking them. Most of the world warrior characters should be a lot less boring to play as well. What the hell happened to Dictator and Dhalsim? THey’re nothing on offense compared to the old days.
Can’t agree more. More Super should be more ST…less SFIV. By that I mean basically making the characters stronger before giving them the ability to combo into Ultra to begin with. Just giving everyone the ability to combo into Ultra solely just makes it the same dry game.
That’s one way to look at it.
The other way to look at it is that limited options make for an easier, less mentally intensive effort towards nullifying your opponents’ options. If there are a bunch of clear, obvious weaknesses for a character, it makes fighting against that character much easier, and the game becomes very one dimensional.
Loads of Abel’s matches come down to “This character has shitty reversal options. Let me knock him down once, and end the round”. The mental game is hampered by this, in this sense.
You can try to romanticize a lack of options, but that is purposefully ignoring the whole other side to the issue.
i haven’t read the whole thread yet but yes, new players are hurting sf.
and i don’t get why people hate CCs so much. its almost the same concept of fadc into ultra.
both cc/fadc have invincibility at startup and both are safe if blocked 90% of the time.
Then it would’ve been smart to gimp Sagat’s health and Ryu’s. That’s what doesn’t make sense, you get chars like Akuma and Seth who are gimped in some serious manner for the sake of balance… then you have those two.
Rufus is entirely dependent on the divekick, and is top tier because of a few screwy things like EX SS, EX Horizontal SRK, TC into ultra, and having massive HP. He’s not necessarily good so much as he’s just not as hosed as many other chars, and he’s not top tier against chars that can zone or have awesome AA capable of destroying his one-dimensional game. Hence Sagat and Ryu being bad matchups for him, like they are for the rest of the cast. Same goes for a lot of the other upper-mid tier chars like Bison, Boxer, Gief.
This is also where Dhalsim ends up being such a weird char, since even though all fights are hard for him he can actually use his options to push around even the top tiers.
Nothing’s new about it. In nearly every game he’s been completely not fun to deal with if you need to get in close, and not fun to play AS if going against someone who can zone. Funnily enough, it’s the tools given to him to aid in the latter case that always makes him so lame in the former. He’s just a fundamentally broken char by design.
Riffing on the issue of options. Despite the similarities with Ryu, his moves just aren’t quite as godlike with active frames, startup, recovery, or stun. Ken is what Ryu would look like if he actually made sense compared to the rest of the cast. Even in the SSF4 Ken improvements thread, everyone was just whining about how their shit’s not broken like Ryu’s. Pretty funny to see even someone like UltraDavid calling for better stepkick so the kara throw has even MORE range. UHN, I CANNOT FADC INTO FULL ULTRA, THIS IS A PROBLEM MY CHAR IS BROKEN
Actually, it’s kind of weird. All the chars who are truly broken tend to ask for things that would cover a major hole. Abel players want an actual AA, Cammies want an overhead, Fei and Guile want Ultras that matter, etc. And even then people are bizarrely against anything that would make their own mains “too good”. Ken? 3 FRAME JAB SHORYU FULL DAMAGE FADC ULTRA FASTER WALKSPEED MORE ADVANTAGE ON EX TATSU FP SRK KNOCKS DOWN ON 1 HIT FROM TOO FAR AWAY GARBL GARBL. And according to the listing on curryallergy’s blog, Ken has more players at Master level than the higher-ranked Abel, Blanka, Dictator, Viper, and Honda, almost tying with Chun.
Maybe it’s my turn for bullshit relativism and/or i need to spend more time with the char, but i’m not entirely clear on what makes him that much worse than the majority of mid-tiers.
Sure, that’s fighting games in general, or at least that’s the idea. But again, in SF4 there’s the issue of whether or not you can really do anything about anything. But specifically i mean really trying to wiggle out an error to make up for a crap moveset, as opposed to using the moveset to force a move. Top tiers can make you worry about what they can do if you freeze up and just sit there, while say, cammy, can either throw or make a lot of noise and hope you forget she doesn’t have an overhead.
Basically, it’s not that impressive to whittle down your opponent’s options when he doesn’t have that many to begin with. You were talking to Ultima about having to learn the Gief matchup as Rufus; that’s actually a huge example of having to play the character rather than the player, because his entire game is nullified by Gief’s. Gief can bully his way around thanks to mp, lariat, and SPD, while Rufus essentially has no way of forcing Gief into an error.
Anyone with a weak wakeup response is going to take significant damage not because he necessarily messed up, but because the developers simply didn’t give them a way to truly increase the chances of avoiding that damage. The point’s proven by Akuma again, isn’t it? Would the lack of HP be justified if he didn’t have an awesome teleport?
Going back to Dhalsim again though, as weak as he seems he actually has enough options to deal with Sagat and Ryu on his terms, rather than theirs. He can jump a fireball and he doesn’t specifically have to risk sitting on an SRK to get a hit in the process. In fact, he can punish in the air from a safe distance if they decide to throw one, creating some actual risk in doing so. No other char can really do this other than Seth. He can, remarkably, look at the top tiers and say “All night long, pal. You want damage, you’re gonna have to come and get me”, and he can change the usual roles by doing damage while they fumble with his keepout game.
Maybe i’m being really myopic, but what i’m saying is that a frightening amount of strategy in this game involves the word “baiting”. As in, not forcing an error – which still does happen from time to time with chars that have plenty of offensive and defensive options – but sticking out your face and hoping someone takes a swipe big enough to punish.
Hyper Fighting i have no real insight on right now since the last time i played it was when it came out. I don’t remember it fondly, and Schaefer’s description of Super Blanka and his magical corner jump RH or whatever didn’t make it sound like i ever would. 3S we both seem to agree is a guessing game, at least with the usual 4 suspects, and CvS2… let’s just say your example of Maki not mattering when you can scrub out and pair her with anti-Sagat chars? That doesn’t mean the team mechanic is the flaw. That just goes back to character imbalance.
man wat
Yeah Rufus is good in SFIV for like all the wrong reasons. Just has mad stuff padding him against most of the cast like huge health and better BnBs than most of the cast. Then there are plenty of characters that have less offensively than he does and his offense isn’t necessarily the most varied compared to other SF games either.
after the tekken hype i just experienced. i dont think i give two shits about anything new sf related at all. ha ha