Azrael people are just complaining about a game they dont like. The game mechanics they thought made sf, sf, got left behind and now they are salty.
People babbling about how complex shit was in 3s forget how the best character, chun, was just simple footsies.
Im sorry 3s players 3s is not all that special or complex as you guys make it to be.
I dont get it in sf4 you can still sj, meaty, zone, and bait.
Hell, sf4 has character that can get by with out a focus on footsies (rufus, c.viper).
To me CCs, VCs and FADC-ultra being easy or not means nothing. It just changes the game in a sense I, PARTICULARLY, don’t like it. The issue with people who like them and people who don’t is that they disagree to fundamental levels: some like flashy, high damaging long hit-cormfirmable combos, some don’t. The issue which has pissed me a bit is the last one is not dangerous because of a bug or unintended high damage, it was actually done on purpose. I just don’t see a point in these hit-confirm-everything fighters.
You must be a positioning, mindgames, and footsies master then. Even in 3s it’s a bit harder than “Simple footsies” and this pretty much says the opposite of what most people complain about in 3s (parry system) which is kind of funny to me. Chun may be able to hit you from far away but it’s completely possible to handle her pokes if it’s someone just throwin shit out.
Azrael: It’s been forever since I played Alpha so my fault on forgetting that. But I think it’s not only the feeling that you feel like some random person shouldn’t have the opportunity to destroy you in pretty much a simple move comes along with feeling like it’s almost too simple especially since there’s been more “depth” to subsystems and play styles from previous games. If you look at the things discovered in Alpha, 3rd Strike, Marvel, etc, and look at the length of time they were played and how much they changed (even ST) it was because there was a lot more that people found where in SF4, with the exception of maybe Gen, it seems like we’ve tested the game to it’s limits already and it’s only been out for a year or 2.
Plus, all the knowledge that has been compiled, spread, and developed that is around this site seems to just get tossed. I think the work and effort that people put into these games before should at least get mentioned or a nod in places where SF4 is always being played or shown especially in a place with mostly new players. I mean even OG’s who hate the new shit give new shit a chance and I think it’d help if the people who are guiding new people into SF4 could at least mention or show what the older games have to offer as well.
Also, stay out of DP range is like saying don’t get hit: unless you have projectiles you gotta go in some time or making them walk into dp range. It’s also a reason why this game becomes so turtley in some cases which is a frequent complaint from those who don’t like SF4. A lot of moves trade with DP in Ryu’s favor and he can go into a combo just off of a jab, so he doesn’t need a naked dp to land it easily.
Your example about winning against Uryo sounds a lot like the argument I make when people who play Shooters exclusively try to say it’s the best genre out for whatever reason. However that’s not what this is about. I won’t downplay your win because you won and good shit, and I agree that gratification for winning is what keeps people playing but its like the only place that works anymore would be at home if you’re with someone who’s your friend. If you go online to play, people aren’t gonna sandbag unless they blatantly start messing with you. This pisses people off even more and they put the game away anyways. If anything, I think Tekken is easier to start with to understand fighting games competitively but allows for more fun because if you mash in that game, it looks like you’re doing something where in a 2D fighter, it looks like your character has full body tourettes.
Delay
If you think that fighting game is better than SF IV, feel free to. It’s your opinion [Though I personally think some people here are exaggerating and making SF IV sound like Shaq Fu or something]
I myself think SF IV is fine, has it’s flaws, but it can be fixed and be made as a great game. More on this later in the post [And yeah, I played other Capcom fighters before it]
Anyways, this isn’t my point. I’m posting here to sort correct something and give my 2 cents about the original purpose of the thread
About people saying that SSF IV is gonna be the same as vanilla SF IV due to Seth’s claim
He never specified what’s gonna say, he said something around this line
“People who didn’t like SF IV are probably not going to like SSF IV”
That’s it. Some just took it like he said “People who didn’t like SF IV won’t like SSF IV because we aren’t fixing shit! all the hitboxes,crossups,bugs etc are not gonna be fixed at all! nothing is gonna be added besides new ultras and characters! hahaha oh wow”
I’m seeing it like this. SSF IV is still gonna have the “core features” from SF IV - No Air Guard, No Parrying, Focus attacks and Ultras. [+Shortcuts?]
This is SF IV, and some people don’t like SF IV due to having no parries/having ultras. We already know that ultras and FAs stay, so I can pretty much assume that that’s what he meant. The core features aren’t gonna be removed, only additions, thus why people who didn’t like SF IV won’t like SSF IV as well. It never said the bugs and the issues related to it aren’t gonna be fixed. There maybe gonna be ultras, but they could be toned down/changed in ways of getting it, etc. And so on for the other featues in Vanilla SF IV
The only specific engine changes that I’ve encoutered so far about SSF IV
That’s it for now iirc. And don’t forget that up to now, we pretty much only saw footage of the new characters and the ultras, but not of the engine and gameplay changes really.
As parabellum said, SSF IV IS going to be better than SF IV. Call me optimistic, but I personally see and think that SF IV will go at the same routine as SF3 did with NG to 2I to 3s. Was NG as good as 3s? Didn’t it have lots of bugs and issues? But look at 3s, what matters to me is the final version and product. I knew that a new version for SF IV will come out eventually long ago, and was sure that Capcom “accidentally forgot” to add all the things that were planned for SF IV in the first version.
Don’t forger about Jeff and Tomo and the other SF2 players who pretty much quitted back when SSF2T came out, one of the main reasons was that supers seemed to them like a pretty much retarded idea. But guess what? Every 2d fighter game pretty much has a super meter, with various supers and uses, and SSF2T is considered by many as a great game, same with other SF games that have that “retarded feature”. Things may seem dumb back at the beginning, some are really are, but only time will tell really
About the original purpose of the thread
Well yeah, no pro here, but I’ve got an idea. Iirc, Isn’t Seth a former SF2 high level player? And isn’t he working for Capcom USA? Isn’t he known and knows the fighting game top players? Can’t he be sort of a “feedback and info pipe for Capcom Japan” from top players that actually know how to play and understand the flaws of the game and what needs to be fixed?
Well, it came out of sort of a tl;dr, but It will be read
new players only hurt the scene if thats your perspective ie change = bad.
new players WILL change the scene and imho change is almost always a good thing.
honestly i just see a bunch of whine in here…people that “think” they’re hella good dont like that they can no longer hide behind great execution and not necessarily great strategy… execution USED TO destroy newbs… not in sf4 though, you can no longer just take a pokestring and have it be safe all the time, you no longer get “free” pressure by doing the SAME meaty setup everytime you get a knockdown. no more destroying scrubs cause they dont have 1 frame reversal timing.
and yeah, all of that pisses me off to a certain extent as well… but i’ve gotten used to it and have come to love 4 more than any other fighter ever except for the alphas.
i play a character that has low ass hp and can almost never do as much damage to a downed opponent as they can on there own wakeup… kind of sucks but it just forces me to be that much better at the neutral game than my opponent… it isnt easy, but i’m able to make it work.
wakeup games arent “watered down” in 4 at all… on the contrary they are MUCH HARDER to apply (character specific… some characters have awesome wakeup games like abel and viper and akuma)… doesnt seem watered down to me.
harder? most certainly. having to deal with 6-7 options on wakeup rather than just 2 like in st, of course makes things much more murky… which is why you shouldnt be trying to win just based off of wakeup in this game… footsies and space control are much more important than pokestrings and wakeup games.
its just something that you have to deal with on 4… get used to it or dont play.
wakeup ultras are easily dealt with by delayed attacks on the opponents wakeup.
4is by no means perfect but it is by far the best “starter” of any of capcoms series.
new players are good for us all cause there are more scrubs to practice on, and more good players to learn from… win win imho.
the only time its bad is at the arcade when i have to wait for 1/2 an hour before i get to play again… but thats neither here nor there.
-dime
ok i’m first off going to admit that i’m one of those people who is brand spanking new to fighting games with sf4’s console release.
anyways… don’t you think part of the reason that sf4 got downloaded and analyzed so quickly (and i do think new stuff is being found out still) is that this scene’s ability to assimilate information from so many sources so quickly is much better than it was during those other games hay days? and i mean aren’t new option selects and baits/frame traps/meaty’s inside of combo’s etc are being found.
the other thing i’m going to comment on is that when i first picked up the game as a brand new player i could hardly even activate the ultra at all, and i wasn’t the only one, most of my friends couldn’t do it either. and i’m talking qcfx2 ultra’s not even to bring up dp fadc into ultra (took me prolly 2 months before i was working that into my game and even then i whiffed it alot and felt EXTREMELY good when it landed) or charge ultra’s, i mean fuck i didn’t even realize for like a full month that the reason i only could sonic boom at the start of a round was because i had been holding the back input while waiting for the round.
so i think the people here are over-estimating how “easy” this game was for a brand new player and instead they assumed it was easy because (being players allready) they could pick the game up and fadc ultra on day 1.
Name me a fighting game where this isn’t true.
The problem is that these days people THINK they can change it. Before, when a new game came out, we lived with it. People learned to deal with Vega Wall Dive BS in ST. People learned to deal with Chun Li’s ridiculous prioritied normals in 3S. People have lived with AHVB forever. If those games came out today, everyone would bitch. But that’s because games like HDR and the advent of SSFIV is fooling people into believing that games CAN be fixed. The Smash community is ALL about this, making their own hacked versions of Brawl to remove tripping.
Understand that in the old days, shit was broken all over the place. But we just learned to deal with it. We had no choice. So you think so much is wrong with SFIV? Every game has just as much wrong with it. Roll Canceling, Crouch Canceling, AHVB, Infinites, easy-mode Parries, Genei-Jin, Valle CC’s, Throw Loops, etc.
Hell, in the HDR threads before HDR came out, everyone was crying about how hard Reversals were to do. “Make them 2 frames at least, please!” Now that SFIV is out, everyone is crying that Reversals are too easy to do.
One of those games listed was MvC2. If you are going to tell me that MvC2 was not an attempt to make the MOST dumbed down Fighting Game in history, you will lose a lot of credibility. Keep in mind that two buttons were removed from previous iterations for the sake of causing BIG THINGS to happen automatically with one button press. Mashing makes Combos happen. I dropped my control pad onto the floor and got a 300 hit Combo once.
Do you play Guilty Gear religiously? That’s a game designed to be as complex as deep as people keep crying about. yet every time I tried to get people to play Guilty Gear, 'cause I loved the game, it was the same thing: “The game is too hard.” “You have to dedicate your life to play this game.” “I have no clue what’s going on! Stuff is flying all over the screen!”
It’s not SFIV, it’s 15 years of knowledge and the insanely quick spreading of knowledge that’s doing it. Safe Jumps, Option Selecting, etc. – All of that stuff existed back in SF2. No one just used it 'cause no one thought of it. Look at X-Men Vs. Street Fighter. Magneto could do lots of similar triangle jump crap. No one did it back then, but people do it now.
The amount of knowledge carries forward, so it feels like we figured out SFIV so fast. But frankly, it’s Street Fighter. And all of the same things apply. The only way Capcom could make a game that is hard to figure out quickly is by doing something like making Alpha 3. And frankly, everyone I know hates Alpha 3 (unless you’re in an SFIV thread, where every game that isn’t SFIV becomes the greatest Fighting Game ever).
Add on top of that Forums, Wikis, and YouTube. I have never seen the proliferation of information as fast as I do these days. I mean, in trying to learn Cammy in SFIV, I couldn’t do shit. And I was convinced she was the worst character in the game. But then I watched some Sanford videos, had an army of Cammy players discussing strategies, etc. and now I think Cammy is potentially High Tier in the game. If SFIV was released back in the same days that Alpha 2 was, you’d BE ABLE to discover Ken’s Kara Throw and not tell anyone and save that for Nationals like Valle CC’s were. That just doesn’t happen anymore. The instant someone does a Valle CC, it’s on the internet, and someone invariably makes a YouTube video for it. And then it’s linked on the front pages of SRK and Eventhubs, and posted in the forums of NeoGAF, GameFAQs, and every other Forum imaginable.
No, Azrael is absolutely correct. One thing about old games is that DPs were risky, so people don’t throw them out as much. Since in SFIV DP’s have become SO reliably safe thanks to FADCs, they are MUCH more easily baited. The reason why a lot of people complain is because they are used to blocking DPs as the counter to DPs and punishing them. Well, thanks to FADCs, that doesn’t work anymore. But you know? This is a different game, folks, so maybe Blocking DPs… isn’t so great anymore? Almost all DPs are not safe upon landing, so it’s a valid strategy. There’s no Ken Jab DP’s in SFIV, for example, where whiffing one was still hugely safe. I mean, we complain about knowing everything about the game so fast, yet when we are forced to do something outside of the box that we know as “SF” in our own perception, we complain. Maybe there IS more to learn about the game.
Baiting whiffed DPs is a huge factor in the game, a strategy made very possible by having invincible back dashes (another thing people complain about). Because people love DPing so much because they are “safe” now, a lot of the times you can be rewarded most for getting them to whiff it at times they think they can FADC it to be safe, because now they are MORE LIKELY to whiff it.
Fighting Games HAVE changed. The reason why it has changed so drastically is that people are fooled into thinking that games can be changed to their preference. HDR set that precedent and now, Ono claiming they are listening to fan feedback for SSFIV is adding to that precedent. Many online multiplayer games continually being patched add to that precedent. So it’s easier for everyone to bitch about everything because they believe that things will change to what THEY want. What players have to understand these days is that Fighting Games are a rule set, and we deal with what we’re given. What did we do back in the days of Hyper Fighting when Ken landing one Low Short meant we lost the ENTIRE ROUND, no matter how much life we had? We either moved on to the next round or put up our quarter and got back in line.
^ applause Dime_x also said a lot of what I wanted to as well.
IIRC CvS2 was also subject to a lot of complaining at first. The GGXX series kept getting patched, and people figured Capcom could do the same. Then time passed and we saw that Capcom really was never going to touch the game again, so people learned to live with it
This is true, and in the case of online, somewhat unavoidable. I don’t sandbag either - my opponent is nameless and faceless, and I don’t actively think to take it easy on him.
Online is one thing, but new players don’t have a whole lot of friendly/non-hostile options. The hostility extended here to SRK as well, and with arcades dead real-life gatherings are a lot harder. Many times it’ll be a tournament setting, which doesn’t really allow for friendly, casual play too much. Hopefully we can all be more welcoming to newcomers - if not during online play, then at least on forums and at tournaments and what not. Not all of them will stick around, but even if some do that helps the community.
The people hyping up older games more than likely don’t know how to play them. There is no way someone can look at A2 Chun-Li, or 3s Chun-Li and have a legitimate complaint about Sagat. There is no way someone could look at activate lightning leg cc or cr.mk roundhouse, or even SGGK and talk bad about FADC roundhouse. SF4 doesn’t require execution, and people tend to think execution is the same as good skills or sound strategy.
SF4 is a game where good fundamentals are important. Spacing, zoning, footsies are still what’s going to get you by in this game. That’s the only way you were going to EVER beat a decent player in any previous SF game. As a matter of fact, a lot of bullshit has been taken out, and in a lot of situations that’s all you have. So now you can’t just activate CC because your spacing game is ass, or CC because your ground game suck. Yes, now you actually have to KNOW how to do these thing, instead of bullshitting your way out of a bad situation.
It’s one of those things I liked about CVS2 and still exist in SFIV. It’s a game about footsies. And I’m going to tell you footsies and spacing is a hell of a lot harder to learn then some shitty custom combo that’s easy as fuck to set up. In SFIV you actually have, THINK now. So now you can’t learn 4 combos and consider yourself good now. You actually have to learn and think to win, and when you practice you have to come up with good mindgames and tactics.
Let’s be honest with ourselves, the better 3s player wasn’t always the smartest. I can at least say this much about SFIV.
Sorry for ignoring the rest of your post, but uuuh, do you know what SGGK is? It’s not even close to all the others you mentioned in terms of dominance. SGGK gets beat by stuff like waking up with a super, or a multi-hit special, or even a normal that chains into itself (or a normal that chains into another normal fast enough, Dudley’s lk,mk,mp,hp chain will beat some SGGKs at the second hit if I recall correctly), so it’s only a very specific type of option select you don’t even see being used that often (Yes, even amongst top players). Gonna complain about 3S Chun, complain about how you have eternity to confirm if her cr.MK landed and then do a comically late cancel into SA2, or her bullshit kara throw (or even her pokes, though her pokes alone wouldn’t be so bad).
SGGK doesn’t break 3s, but DP xx FADC is child’s play compared to it. The thing that made 3s so dumb was option select parry. The only thing that kept 3s from being a total random fest was spacing and footsies, which SURPRISE are still important in SFIV. People who complain about SFIV usually don’t know what the fuck they are talking about, or has never played a halfway decent player in previous games. I’m a long time CVS 2, 3s, and Alpha player, and SFIV is a decent game in my eyes. Not perfect, but solid.
What in the fuck happened to this community?
I may not like SFIV that much, but the wonders it has done for the community and the hype it generates is absurdly infectious.
I really want to slap the fucking ‘bitch’ out of alot of you, should be ashamed of the way you’re acting.
I dunno why this has to devolve into “look other games have stuff that is just as stupid so you should accept SFIV!” People simply have different tastes. Some people don’t like an overly defensive oriented game so that’s why they bitch about the mechanics of SFIV.
Eksh, made a good post, though. In the end we’ll probably be getting a good polished game. To be honest one of my biggest problems with SFIV was that I never found a character to enjoy, and stick with. I’m hoping that’ll change.
How? I know this thread isn’t about specific game mechanics, but this doesn’t make sense, please expand on what you mean. The discovery of SGGK didn’t even change anything regarding tiers or matchups. 3S is indeed unbalanced, but option select like SGGK sure as hell isn’t to blame for it. It’s just a usefull little technique every character can use, to varying degrees of usefulness of course, but the basic of “if I don’t get a parry I throw tech!” is there for everyone.
100% in the same boat.
Didn’t like any of the new characters that much and wasn’t a fan of how the old one’s played.
Juri looks to change that though, sexy ass evil bitch.
:lovin:
Well…they did, but in the wrong way. The modified versions were on GC and Ecks Bawks; and that didn’t help. Compounded with the fact they were under the “EO” moniker. They should have released an updated version via arcades and the DC/PS2 to show they were really behind it.
But yeah, CvS2 has a great system but it desperately needed revision.
It didn’t desperately need shit, the game is fine.
I wasn’t clear, so I apologize. I didn’t say SGGK was game breaking, and only characters with good kara throws can do it. Like, SURPRISE, Chun-Li. I’m not hating, later I end up switching to Chun because at least her game relies on spacing and footsies (which I love in my SF game).
Well, I don’t believe people should accept SFIV. There is a local guy in our scene who said he hates SFIV because it’s slow and he hates the graphics. That I can accept because he’s stating a preference. I don’t like pretentious know-it-alls who say they hate SFIV because it’s not a sound game, or try to pick apart the mechanics. To me they are people who just can’t admit they don’t have a preference to SFIV, and try to make it sound like there is some sound intellectual reason attached behind their hate.
Yes SFIV can be defensive, but that can be said about a lot of games. Even games like GGXX can turn into games where both players are basically waiting for their opportunity. I know there are a few people in this thread who have never played any of these games at a halfway decent competitive level. Yet they feel they are at liberty to speak about SFIV and how bad it is. Those people know who they are, and I won’t drop any names.
To be honest with you a lot of SRKers who hate SFIV are lousy players who don’t know what makes a game good at higher levels. Many of them don’t know a damn thing about previous games, and never had to experience high level brokeness in these previous games outside of looking at youtube vids. That’s the only thing that annoy me, and why I keep using broken shit in previous games to hold my point. If every SFIV hater on SRK just admitted they just don’t like the game because it doesn’t fit their taste, I could totally accept that.
I thought CvS2 was fine the way it was from the jump. But none of the characters I use really abuse shit like Roll Cancel. (and I don’t play A groove so…I don’t have a reason to bitch.)
and I also agree on the “SFIV lacks characters to hold my interest” bit. Not like SSFIV does good at that either, but at least I can get hyped for the people I do want to play.
Sorry for the double post, but I agree with Master Chibi. CVS2 was a fine game. I can’t pin point anything that was wrong with it or totally game breaking. It had the most balanced version of CCs ever in a SF game. CVS2 was also really balanced and you could make a lot of characters work. And till this day, CVS 2 is probably my favorite fighting game ever. Still, CVS 2 will never have the appeal of SFIV. EVER. CVS 2 was WAY more boring to watch at higher levels than SFIV could ever dream of being. and in terms of turtling, CVS 2 matches were some of the worst turtlefest I’ve ever seen in a game. Still the game was good because it made you think, and required a lot of patience and practice to be effective. Plus it was one of the games where the skill levels of players were more than obvious. I gotta love a game that forces you NOT to press buttons. If anything there is to hate about SFIV, it’s the mashiness of the game sometimes, especially when you have shotos. But hopefully they fixed this in Super.
Oh and one more thing, CVS 2 could never appeal to newcomers. The game was just too technical.