well, if you want to learn oki the hard way, then play gouken with rushdown in mind. You have dozens of options, all of them are manual timing, manual spacing, character specific, and each one on its own is not even a 50/50. But dozens of 33/66s makes for a rather confused target, and if they guess wrong, bang, you just took 400 health away.
Okay so why is it Gouken can’t combo into tatsu from a light attack string? For example cr. LP (x3) xx st. LK xx cr. LK xx tatsu. I tried slowing down the timing for the last LK trying to link into it, but it still doesn’t work. Also like the trial you can do cl. st. MP xx cr. LP xx tatsu…but if you add the cr. LK after the cr. LP…the tatsu won’t come out. Everything can combo…but Capcom just said hahaha no.
ok, so after 5 years, i’m just now learning that counterhit sweep results in 3 extra frames on their knockdown.
That explains a buttload of missed safejumps.
Greedy: long story short, you can only combo from a link, not a chain. You are talking about chains. cr.lp is the only light attack that is 3 frame start up and therefore the only one able to link instead of chain. It’s more complicated than that but someone else will type it up.
@Norieaga Counter is a decent anti-air but counters are dependent on the hitbox and activation box interacting. Certain jump attacks can hit “deep” (think Gouken’s waist) and will bypass the high counter. You will actually need to use MP counter to counter the jump in. Use Ryu and do a jump in to Gouken’s head with HK. Then do it to his stomach. Test which counter works.
@artificeren Source?
read the claim on r/sf4. Did a 60fps video recording myself in training mode and stepped thru the frames in a video editor. 3 extra “falling” frames on counterhit.
[quote=“Reipin_Pillage, post:1564, topic:134802”]
Greedy: long story short, you can only combo from a link, not a chain. You are talking about chains. cr.lp is the only light attack that is 3 frame start up and therefore the only one able to link instead of chain. It’s more complicated than that but someone else will type it up.
I kind of know that. But for example with Akuma…2 cr. LP and if you slow it down to link the 3rd LP you can cancel it into his light tatsu…I’m wondering why the same principle doesn’t apply.
Gouken can do the same thing now with the 3 frame cr jab. I’ve been practicing it in training nearly every time I turn the game on. Not sure what you are confused about.
You can only chain into cr.lk and chains do not cancel into anything, so your light string must end in a cr lp canceled into tatsu or palm. Gouken can reliably hit 4 lights before cancelling. Most useful to me is cr lp cr lp st lp cr lp xx hk tatsu. I’ve used it successfully in a few matches but its a tough link that can cost you the round if you are blocked on that last cr.lp.
I said it before Ultra came out but I think this link into Tatsu is** crucial **in Ultra. If you can’t do it you lose out a ton of guaranteed damage from situations that are very common. If every time you went into jab chain to make something safe and it hits, you were able to cancel it into heavy Tatsu, think about how much damage that adds up to, and that’s what you’re losing out on if you can’t do it.
It’s not even terribly impractical; there are much harder things in the game. Put 30 minutes a day in training mode into the link and it will pay dividends back in the end.
@Reipin
It’s correct, counter hit sweep causes either more falling or laying down frames. Try it yourself, put training mode dummy on counterhit and apply the usual 4fr safe jump jump + down mk. You will not connect with the dive kick. No idea how many frames though, but there are certainly additional ones.
@Noriega
HP Counter is not a reliable anti air due to the hitbox problems as described by Reipin. But furthermore opponents will abuse empty jump ins vs. Gouken due to the counter. But Gouken has so many reliable, partially situational anti airs (ex tatsu, lp tatsu, cr.mk, cr.hp, far. mk, close HK vs. cross ups, j.mp as air-to-air and vs. high jump arcs and flips, situational backjump hk vs. air tatsus, etc.). Particularly anti air ex tatsu (5fr start up, 200dmg) will keep your opponents on the ground. I can really only see two applications for counter (besides mashing), which are a, opp jumps over your fireball and wants to get you in hitstun quickly (but you can still extatsu) or b, as cr.tech trap if you have a read (particularly rewarding close to corner and fadc).
Actually, i think Gouken is not easy to play at all !!!
He may not have the most demanding combos, but actually having a solid ground game and squeezing every possible dmg out of his max range, spacing and zoning gameplan is quite demanding. Also overcoming his weaknesses, e.g. vs. throws or focus is not easy. Gouken requires a lot of dedication and good reactions to make him somehow work, particularly because he is not the typical SF4 character getting close or jumping in into mashing lights and going from there…
But maybe you meant that with “not easy to win”…
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Gouken is currently on place 18 on the eventhubs community tier list, so he must be pretty good now! Jokes aside, I believe he is solid, although he “only” received two significant buffs, i.e. ex tatsu hitting crouch and 3fr. jab. But he still has the same horrible match ups against popular tourney chars like Yun, Cammy, Akuma, Viper, Adon, etc. which holds him back. He is a good char to cover certain match ups, but you need alts for “counter picking”.
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Imo (!), DWU hurts Gouken’s offense and kd oki a lot, like most chars. Safe Jumps set ups still work, but you have to watch out for the tech message to immediatly switch to defense manuevers. Have not seen a really viable one-options-covers-all yet. But if you are good at zoning, Gouken has some interesting options complementing his overall zoning game plan at several ranges. Only weakness is the lack of a immediate two hit fireball vs. focus dash in. So at closer ranges you need to switch to a more poking orientated approach.
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see prior posts
Hey Mic, do you really think so? Among these, I think Adon and Akuma got kind of a lot easier.
Adon got easier because he does less chip damage, straight up. Blocking his air jaguar kicks is not nearly as debilitating as it used to be. The amount of “free” damage he got vs Gouken becomes really apparent went you review your AE sets vs. Adon vs in Ultra. It’s still not a good match-up, but it’s more manageable than it was in AE just because of the reduced chip damage you take over the course of a set. Standing MK is godlike in this match-up just like it was in AE (it’s one of the few buttons in the game that can really deal with Adon’s standing HK) and DWU reduces the effectiveness of his okizeme significantly. Faster EX Tatsu makes reacting to his stuff a lot easier too.
Akuma on the other hand is hardly a problem for us now. DWU makes has really changed this match-up. That’s not just my opinion, either… Veloc1raptor said in an interview after Evo that he didn’t feel Akuma was a big problem anymore, and was much more worried about Infiltration’s Chun Li (which, incidentally, Infiltration used). This, in his words, was due to the ineffectiveness of Akuma’s vortex. Gouken had a lot of tools in this match-up that just didn’t matter if you couldn’t play the game like you often couldn’t in AE2012.
DWU helped against Cammy too but she’s still a pain in the ass. Yun is still bad. Viper, I dunno.
True!
I also believe Adon is not so horrible if he not goes full out random. But I can see why on paper he seems pretty bad. Maybe I should not have listed him, certainly not even, but maybe also not soooooo horrible.
Akuma may got better due to dwu, but is imo still quite bad. There is not much Gouken can do to stop Akuma throwing out smart far.HK at certain footsie ranges as unfortunatley the second hit will not whiff on block. Gouken can also be swept after LK tatsu, which is still a bad situation vs Akuma, DWU or not. On top of that after two cr.jabs Akuma can now always go into lk tatsu SRK/sweep due to mk forcing stand + proximity change which is a pretty hefty damage buff combined with far.hp cancelabilty. Walkspeed, general mobility, Damage, options, etc. Akuma has pretty much everything. Competent Akumas are still pretty bad for Gouken who is still reliant on mistakes by his opp to realize the significant dmg. And yes, Velociraptor is pretty awesome…
Yun and Viper, no comment necessary…
Cammy still good enough to more than out-manuever and rushdown Gouken.
Maybe on general note, these offensive chars like Yun, Viper, Cammy, Akuma, etc. have the tools and set ups to open up the opponent, while Gouken has…? Flips on wake up? 1fr hit confirm? Big dmg from a cr.mp during footsies? etc.
Just my opinion!
But it would be nice to have an extra thread to discuss match ups from a more general perspective including a full macth up table, if it is ever possible in the Gouken forum to find some sort of consensus…
Yeah, far.mk is imo pretty underrated, I use it a lot (particularly xl hurtboxes) and love it. Versus Adon is also has good applications, e.g. to premptively stop jaguar kicks during start up. But has also downsides. Adon can forward dash under it and it is generally pretty fulnerable against sweeps.
But what do you mean by dealing with Adon’s far.HK? Range wise? Stuffing or whiff punishing?
Thanks, I learned something new.
It’s a really good whiff punish against his s.HK is what I meant specifically. It actually feels like it was designed just to deal with that move… it’s so good that you can easily react with it online and everything.
Didn’t think this was possible!!!
Time for a praise break!!!
Hahahahaha hahahahahahaha oh lord!!!
lawwwwwdy lawwwwwwwwwwdy laaaawd
Do anyone else have a nightmare teching chun li?? I have a friend who plays her and must get thrown 4 or 5 times a round. I can tech all characters easily but chun li nope does anyone have decent advice against chun I really struggle in this match up thanks