New Goukens: Ask a question get an answer

Half this game is reactions. You have to train yourself to react and you need to know what to react with. You might think you’ll never have the reactions but you can if you train yourself.

People get to used to holding down back rather than concentrating on being aware of what’s happening. It happens to everyone but the more you train the more aware you’ll be.

Take jump ins for example, play ten games where your only goal is to antiair people with ex tatsu. You WILL get better at antiairing the more focus you put into it. It will become muscle memory. You remember to block when people jump at you, so instead you retrain yourself to ex tatsu.

I’ll try that… just that the hard thing is keeping the other person spaced right for it. Without cornering myself. EX tatsu whiffs most of the time if they are aiming for crossover. So falling back on blocking is often what i do… WIth gouken its knowing when to cl.s.hk as AA or c.mk/c.hp or jab(dive kickers) or ex tatsu. People jump in way more often than my ability to build meter so I really need to be prepared to use them all. There are guys on ranked with lots of BP that make their living jumping in on guys like me that either mistime AA and eat big combos (plus the ground pressure that follows) or block and attempt an online tech or a rejump. Im guessing im not the only one they do this to. And sometimes these guys are slightly better than mediocre because if I successfully AA or kongo them enough times, they resort to plan B (actually fighting). And i know bp isnt everything but at a minimum it tells you how much they win. And I know from experience that grinding only gets you so far. (stuck between 2500bp and 5000bp) you can play a million times and still be stuck in that limbo if you dont win often enough.

Your goal is not to win these games, your goal is to learn how to AA these things so that in the future your post will seem like a silly one.

You concentrate on winning which is why you fall back on blocking because blocking is “safe”. You don’t learn when/where/how to deal with these issues. Sometimes you have to block a jump in, most of the times you don’t.

If someone is crossing you up while you are already standing that means they had to have had you in a block string and then jumped for the crossup. Use jump back mp. You just need to be looking for it. Again, it is all about reactions and what you train yourself to do without thinking.

Remember Kongo is one frame. If someone jumps at you, then rejumps and you tech as to cause a whiff throw, just kongo. Someone without a command throw is going to try to hit you 99/100 times on the way down. If you recover from tech you kongo them, if not you just get hit.

Sorry I just want to delve a little bit further into this topic, not as it relates to Gouken, but as a player of SF4.

At any given moment you are going to find yourself with a choice to make. A lot of these choices you make without thinking because you have it programmed into your head how to respond.

The only way to get better is to recognize each situation, quickly analyze the situation and then know your options in each situation.

For instance when you are being blockstringed there are a few things that can happen. You can get blockstringed out to safety, you can get thrown, you can get frametrapped/crtech baited, and you can be crossed up before being blockstringed out.

You should have a plan in place for each of these possible outcomes. It is up to you to train yourself to respond with the appropriate response.

When someone goes to jump over you for a crossup out of a blockstring that should be a free 180 damage for you. That person has to not only jump but also has to wait to cross over you before attacking. You should be looking for this and do jumpback mp xx tatsu, not only for damage but for the real estate you will gain.

You only have two things to look for, a jump and a tick throw/frametrap. The tick throw and frametrap/cr.tech bait is a separate little game you have to play, but you don’t need to cross that bridge until you recognize the attempts for a tick throw.

Blocking is your default option, you don’t even need to think about it. All you need to do is look for a jump or a walk forward and respond appropriately.

Again, it is very important (at least for me) to NOT try to win these games. If I win, great, but I can’t be concerned with playing it safe and trying to win. When I try to win I fall back on what my mind knows NOW and what has worked for me in the past. I’m trying to break that mold and make new things work, know what I mean?

Force yourself to play people who use these tactics in endless and try as hard as you can, even if it means losing 20 in a row, to accomplish the goal you set forth for those matches.

The classic example of this is how people will tell you to learn footsies. Play a game with a self imposed rule of no jumping. Try that for 20 games and see if you don’t learn how to hold your ground better. Remember it is not about winning, it’s about learning so that you win in the future.

Don’t sell yourself short and say,“Hey I’ll never be as good as those guys”. As the saying goes, you have to crawl before you can walk. Practice new stuff and if it fails and you lose, who fing cares, you are learning.

Try these three things over the next three days (remember you are losing to learn, don’t get frustrated with losing and thinking I’m better then this guy, it’s NOT about that, you may very well be better then this guy and you could smash him, but you won’t learn anything or get better by beating them).

Goal 1: AA EVERYTHING with LK tatsu or EX tatsu. Even if it drops them. You will learn when LK tatsu trades, when it drops, when it whiffs and when it actually works. Same with EX tatsu. Even when this shit fails you are learning. You are learning when not to use these moves. Your goal is to learn everything you can about these moves so you can use them effectively in the future. Remember I said AA, not wake up with them. Even if you think it is too slow, do it, cause you will learn what is too slow and what is not.

Goal 2: Stop the leapfrogging. You know how you cr.tech when you are in a blockstring? Your new goal is to not cr.tech everything. You want to wait and tech if you see it coming, and jump back mp xx tatsu if he jumps. Just sit there, block, and keep your fingers over the buttons. Repeat to yourself jump or throw, jump or throw. Seriously, as stupid as this sounds, this is what you want to learn to react to. Condition yourself to understand most people have limited options as this point and you can react to most of them.

Goal 3: This kind of conflicts with goal 1, but everytime you do something where you think you will get hit, do kongo. Throw a fireball and think that jump attack is going to hit you? Do kongo instead of block. If you get stuck in recovery, you get hit, nothing you can do. If you get out of recovery boom kongo. Did a sweep but the opponent jumped it and it is a close call between being able to block or getting hit while in recovery? Kongo, same idea. Did a stand tech and the opponent jumped so you are whiffing a throw? Kongo. The basic idea here is to kongo when people think there is no reason to NOT attack. In the three situations I listed, there will be an incredibly miniscule amount of frames between you either getting hit or being able to block, the opponent is so close to hitting you and think they can hit you in recovery frames that they have no reason not to attack. Remember Kongo is 1 frame startup. This will obviously not be something you want to do EVERYTIME but it’s another tool in your pocket.

Try doing those three things. Play ten games, go back and watch your replay log. Watch each match and see where you may have missed the opportunity. It may seem like a lot of work now but as you make improvements it will be all the reward you need. The thing about this game is, when you lose it is frustrating so winning is twice is sweet cause not only no sour grapes, but you get delicious ones on top of it.

Okay, so I’m absolutely one hundred percent clueless when it comes to playing as Gouken. Which thread should I read first?

Moveset and Attributes. Hands down. It’s been updated for AE, but will be outdated for 2012 cause of all the changes. Ask questions pertaining to his moveset and normals in that thread, ask anything else you want to ask here.

Also, something not mentioned in that thread is st.hp and st.mp are both great for stuffing things. I can’t update the thread as I think it reached its character limit so I have just been waiting for 2012 to drop before redoing it all. Check the hitbox thread to get an idea of what these normals looks like.

I’ll be sure and do that. My first priority when learning a new character is always to learn how their normals function, which is probably one of the most neglected parts of the game by a lot of folks.

@Reipin
I’ll try… I played this morning and settled less for blocking. It worked in a way but prolly had more to do with my competition. When i played someone good (a bison), I got smacked around. Like you eluded… I need to face someone that will test my AA every game. I probably went like 14-4 (with gouken its usually the other way around) Normally I face better opponents more frequently. The good players enforce a defensiveness in me that hurts my chances when I play not as good opponents. So at least this assignment eliminates that. Last night i started preemptively jb.mp which I know isnt what u said… still not trusting myself to ‘react’. Thanks for the advice…

My things were only suggestions based on what you said. Watch your replays and identify things you need to work on and draw up a plan.

For example I used to have no frame traps or hit confirms in my game. After watching The Mullah play and how offensive he was I set out to emulate that and work it into my game so that when I needed to press offense or I put myself in a position to be offensive I could be and be so effectively.

Got a question about the start up frames on gouken’s fireballs…

Why are there two numbers?

It says something lilke 17[8]…

So, when is the second number relevant?

I think i’m gonna go online and do this now.
cr.teching on blockstrings is one of my major flaws, sometimes i get hit because cr.lk came out and sometimes they grab my cr.lk before it hits 'em cause it’s so ass.(Sometimes if i’d have done nothing they would have whiffed the throw!)
And often my cr.teching just doesn’t work when they do grab because the timing i’ve got worked in is the st.teching rythem, i want to change but muscle memory kicks in.

So yeah i’m gonna try this now.

PS: Do you think the tournament players do this react to grab or jump scenario?
Or do they cr.tech to a rythem?

Second number is relevant for when you are charging a fireball.

If you are charging and let go, ther should be 8 frames until the ball actually comes out and 32 frames till you completely recover.

I’m still confused…

Normal Hado = Start up: 17[8] Active: w/e Recovery: 41[32]

so… you’re meaning that the bracket numbers are referring to a hado which is partially charged…

So if you charge a hado… any amount less than 100% and manually let go… THAT"S what the bracket numbers are referring to?

:looney:

If you do a qcf and hit punch and do not hold the button you will release a fireball in 17 frames and the entire action from first startup frame till being able to block will be 41 frames.

if you do qcf and hold punch a fireball will not come out of Gouken until 8 frames after you release punch and you will not be able to block for 32 frames after you let go of punch.

Edit: made a typo, changed 42 to 41

Alright…

The frame data chart that i’m using has, for Gouken’s fireball, nothing listed under active frames… it only has start up and recovery…
Going by this… lp fireball amount of frames from the first start up frame to the final recovery frame is 17 +41… so 58.

The sheet of frame data here has a seperate line dedicated to a fully charaged hado.

It has a fully charged Hado as having 68 start up frames… nothing listed for active, and 93 recovery. with a total 162, about 2 1/2 seconds.

Alright… Now…

Because there’s one line of frame data referring to a non charge hado… and one dedicated to a fully charged hado… I can ask my question again… What do the Bracketed numbers referr to? You understand why I’m confused with what you said?

If a fully charged Hado is listed with it’s own frame data… why would the bracketed number next to the start up frames on the normal hado have something to do with charge? Seems redundant…

Plus… It couldn’t be referring to a prematurly charged hado… because those hado’s can obviously be relaased after an arbitrary percentage of charage and thus would have an arbitrary number of start up frames…

:looney:

Brackets are also around the start up frames of Balrog’s dash straight… In that case, it’s referring to the change in number of start up frames depending on distant from the opponent… Far away his lp dash straight comes out in 13… while up close it comes out in 4…

I’m Scared that this might be the case with gouken… As long as it’s not the case then i don’t give a fuck about what it really means :slight_smile:

There are no “active” frames for a fireball.

Frame Data: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV_AE/Gouken

For Gouken, non charged, there are 17 frames BEFORE a fireball is released (startup) and there are 41 frames TOTAL until you can block again.

The moment you finish your QCF+P you are considered IN RECOVERY. You are in BOTH startup and RECOVERY at the same time for 17 frames and just recovery for the remainder of the time.

Gouken also has brackets for his dash palm which is the fastest startup of the move (i.e. if someone is point blank) and the longest startup of the move (Bracketed, if the move travels the full distance possible).

Now, for the brackets:

Frame Data: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV_AE/Gouken

Take what I said about non-charged fireballs in the paragraph before and also add…

If you do a QCF+P and hold the punch and release it before it is fully charged, it will take 8 frames before there is a fireball with a hitbox on the screen in addition to however many frames you have been holding down punch.

So to clarify: I do QCF+P and hold the punch for 29 frames. On the 29th frame I release punch (this is just a random example), not until frame (29+8) 37 will there be a fireball on the screen and not until frame (29+32) 61 will I be able to block. Remember you are in startup and recovery at the same time.

The brackets are ONLY in reference to partially charged fireballs.

Frame Data: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV_AE/Gouken

Fully charged 2 hit fireballs are a set amount of time and cannot be held past their full charge amount so there are no brackets. If you hold down punch and fully charge a fireball will automatically be released and you will be able to block on the 93rd frame or 25 frames after a fully charged fireball is released. Iit takes 60 frame to fully charge (and it automatically releases), 9 frames later (still don’t know why the extra frame) there will be a fireball on the screen, and 24 frames later you can block.

Again, no brackets because no option to hold a fully charged fireball.

Apply the same knowledge to EX balls.

EDIT: Frame data came out unreadable, erased it and posted links instead. Also it is definitely the 69th frame that a projectile actually comes onto the screen in the frame videos. 68th frame his arm is fully extended but no hitbox till frame 69. Uncharged fireballs the projectile hitbox is there on frame 17 as the frame data says.

Ok, now I have a problem.

As I was going through the fireball video for hotboxes I came across something weird.

When stepping through the videos frame by frame, there is a fireball on the screen at frame 17. That’s normal and matches up with frame data. It isn’t until frame 52 that Gouken’s hitbox returns from a wireframe back to his regular boxes… The wireframe indicates the start of the special move, so I would think it indicates the end of the special move but I am not certain. He has to recover before his hitboxes go back to normal otherwise the frame data is wrong (and I don’t think it is). 52 frames is a Rose fireball.

Anyone know for certain?

Certain moves (including some normals) don’t go back to solid rectangle hurtboxes even after recoveries are actually over.

Since we’re talking about frames, how do you read Focus attacks frames? I mean, what’s the point of compairing one character to another focus properties? Does it have any use other than knowing that a level 1 is safe on block and a level 2 you have to dash to be safe? I saw Metroid searching Gouken’s focus attack frames in the stream but couldn’t figure out if he used it for anything else than that.

Also, is there a comparison about focus distances? I only found throw distances comparisons.