EX hado hits twice but only counts once in damage scaling (it’s counted as 1 move) so it is slightly better than hp hado > lp palm when doing a Denjin follow up.
Didn’t know this at all. Thanks a lot
Okay let’s step outside of the juggle topic for a second: so what if I charged the EX hado for 4 hits in total, that still counts as one hit in the scaling, correct?
Yes. *Any button press/motion + button press that lands as a hit will count once in scaling no matter how many times it hits, so 4 hit ex hado counts once in scaling. Focus attacks count as two hits in the scaling formula. It really bothers me when I see Goukens land a focus level 2, dash forward, back throw to U1. That backthrow just reduced your damage by 10%. Skip the backthrow.
*Actually, I forgot whether multi-hit ultra’s receive scaling penalties for the later hits (I.E. 3rd hit in Shin Sho…) Can someone expand on that?
What’s special about the 3rd hit of Shin Sho? According to what you said, a multi-hitting special would count as a single move in scaling… multi-hitting in that case would be nothing more than additional chip damage on block.
I don’t think the extra hits would receive further scaling, but I am not 100% sure and If I’m not, I don’t like stating something as definite. As far as I know, the extra hits do not get scaled further, but it is important to remember as iamthatiam stated earlier, ultra damage is dropped 20% along the “scale slide” if they are used in a combo…
In essence and in all practicality, ultra should happen as soon as possible in a combo so all that flashy stuff beforehand usually ends up reducing your final damage output. This is true for combo to super also. Practice a backthrow > palm > super or backthrow > tatsu >super and note the damage. Now do backthrow > super. More damage.
Even if it did, that can be added up so there’s no need to test it in-game. I got my original question answered.
hello, i’m collecting kara throw data for all of AE 2012’s characters, i don’t know how much of the information here is outdated, so i wanted to ask: what’s gouken’s best kara throw?
all of the data will be compiled into a list including normal throw ranges, added ranges and kara throw ranges.
f.st.hk ~ lp + lk. It’s not Ken good, but it’s better than some other characters. I have no idea what the range is. I believe he has one with f.st.mk as well but not as good.
Slide Kara is the next dimension , you can premiere this in your Gouken section: utilizing maximum input delay slide Kara throws specifically are dope…I know other characters can acheive similar results , but those mainers can develop their own tech…
Best explanation is hold toward opponent and just before the walk animation starts press hk~lp+lk
here’s an old iteration:
just tested: 2.8. that’s impressive. as you said, not ken good, but vega good.
Is there a list of characters who can focus dash through fireball without getting swept, S. MK’d (since its fast), or hit with a second fireball?
I know the heavy grapplers can’t focus dash without getting hit by a second fireball or sweep, but I want to know which characters I have to watch out for with that fast focus dash through.
Isn’t this space dependent? If you are going strictly on dash speed, then I haven’t the foggiest. If you are getting counter hit, you might be throwing those hados a bit too close, my friend. Check the srk wiki below and look for characters who have a dash speed faster than Gouken’s fb recovery + your intended focus punish (cr.hk for example). It’s almost everybody. This question can’t be answered exactly though because the opponent must wait for the fireball to hit before he can dash in, so you could be recovered already. If it’s a toe to toe point blank hado, all but Sim probably beat you. Fireball Makoto fullscreen and you have time to dash in and sweep her focus dash because of the spacing.
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Universal_Abilities/Dashing
I’m assuming the parameters Technotropia is proposing is when they get into your sweep’s max range after they dash in. There are a lot of variables but for the sake of getting something done, we can just make a few assumptions to get us started. Let’s go with the average dash distance for this and forget st.mk for now. You fireball, they focus through it, and now they’re in reach for your sweep. To calculate where to start counting recovery frames can be done by recording a video with correct frame rate, but we could assume a number.
Actually, instead of calculating to see how much time we have to sweep, why don’t we determine at how many recovery frames Gouken is allowed per character if he wants to sweep? So rather than adding ongoing recovery frames (which we don’t know) + start up sweep - opponent dash (timing is still not consistent), we can subtract the startup of sweep from the total dash time to get the amount of recovery frames you’re allowed to connect a sweep.
For example, Ryu’s dash is 18 frames… 17 because it’s a focus dash (correct me if I’m wrong on this). Your sweep starts in 6 frames. 17 - 6 = 11. This means that at that very instant Ryu dashes out of focusing your fireball, you have to already have only 11 recovery frames (or less) from the fireball to connect a sweep. Any higher means you won’t sweep him out of his dash. To put that in an understandable context, if he dashes out of the fireball pretty late during your recovery frames, you can sweep him, if he dashes quicker, then no.
This is actually kind of interesting and if you aren’t sure how to calculate this, imagine 2 different scenarios. Break up the two characters so they’re in their own little bubble.
With Gouken, you have him doing the following:
- startup fireball frames
- recovery frames <- the tricky variable since he could be anywhere in the time frame of the recovery when Ryu dashes.
- start up sweep.
For this, all this matters is recovery frames and sweep startup. Except #2 is not a fixed number in this case.
With Ryu:
- time spent waiting for the fireball to reach. Combine this with startup of focus. <-again, not a fixed number.
- dashing frames the moment fireball is absorbed
time spent waiting on fireball is spacing dependent, but we’re assuming a fixed distance which can be calculated but I don’t know the fucking number since we don’t know how far Gouken has gone in his recovery frames which is why I rearranged the variables so that we’re looking for the amount of recovery frames he’s allowed to land the sweep rather than “seeing whether or not the dash will be the sweep”
Oh BTW those numbers on the wiki for Gouken is wrong. I could’ve sworn cl.mk was 3 frame startup and I know for a fact cl.mp on hit isn’t +4 because that means cr.hp (6f) can’t be linked, which is false.
Thanks AOS, so coherent and well written. Answered my question perfectly. Are you a scientist of some sort?
The situation I typically find myself asking this question is in about starting distance. So If I throw a fireball as soon as the match begins and they focus dash, I want to know which characters I can sweep and which ones I have to block, parry, backdash etc. Practically speaking, I can see that it basically comes down to dash speed and also throwing the sweep out ASAP or preemptively, since no one can really react within 11 frames. Like you said, the further away you throw the fireballs the less recovery frames you have and so the harder it is to block the sweep.
From looking at dash speeds and a bit of testing in the lab using the starting distance, I think only 20 frame and higher dashers are in danger of being swept if Gouken does sweep as soon as he possibly can. They can still get through if they start their Focus dash closer since Gouken is recovering from the fireball. But in terms of a normal distance that you’d feel comfortable throwing a fireball, 20 frames and above seem to have the most trouble.
So that means the following characters can’t abuse focus dash on fireballs:
Blanka
Dhalsim
E Honda
Rose
Rufus
T. Hawk
Vega
Zangief
19 Frame dashers still have a bit of trouble but they can almost always block the sweep even from slightly further than the starting distance. I really want to figure out the distances at which you can throw safe fireballs for every character in the cast and have that mental picture in my head at all times.
btw, is there a better kara throw from crouching normals?
If someone is fadc’into your max sweep range then the answer is nobody. Unless after they fadc and they’re in your face I would say no as well. I can honestly say that I’ve been able to sweep someone fadc’ing into my max range and even 60% of my max range.
Haha I am not but I will gladly accept your flattery. I’ve had a tendency to visualize things differently than most people. Years of doing this in my own solitude makes it rather easy for me to do. In this case, I can imagine all the events that happen simultaneously and how they are in relation to each other in any given instant. I’m glad you understood it though since I tend to over-explain things a LOT.
Also within that range we can inversely focus dash on opponents and go into kongo which is working great at that same snap of time…one may think why would I …its a great tool if ur reading is on point up close!
Depends on the opponent, many people throw after a focus dash…