EX Air Tatsu escapes clean against Zangief. I have a question though, does EX Psycho Crusher get punished by Ultra 2?
Vs bison, neutral jump roundhouse beats all versions of stomp clean in the air, no trading. Also, your reactions don’t have to be amazing to do this. Tested in training mode.
Vs good Zangief players, crouching jab into 2x standing jab into 2x standing short gets you away from SPD range. Like you said, far standing forward kick is great. But, if you’re going to zone with a heavy normal, use far standing fierce punch instead. It doesn’t move Gouken forward, which is what you’d rather have. It’s hit box is great and against Zangief, having a gigantic hittable hitbox plus great damage, makes a good pressure tool to make him jump or spam lariat/green hand. Which you want, because both are punishable.
I just tried it about 30 times in training mode, only managed to do it once. Didn’t think a normal tatsu could punish it though.
I think you can punish an EX Psycho Crusher with Ultra 2 yes, but it does depend on distance that you perform the Crusher from.
A full screen Crusher is unpunishable.
However the closer you are the easier it gets, if your close enough that it goes behind Gouken it’s certainly punishable.
Unless I mis-read what you meant.
*Im 'ma go and check since ‘jebop’ had trouble with it. See how I do.
Sorry I meant Zangief’s ultra 2, not Gouken’s. I think ex psycho crusher recovers too fast and its block stun is too good to be punished by Gouken’s ultra 2
I was referring to jebop’s post about escape options against Zangief, when Zangief is close-range or mixing you up on your wake-up, he said ex psycho crusher gets him out for free. I meant to ask, does ex psycho crusher ALSO save Bison from Zangief’s ultra 2, or is it an airborne special?
I’m pretty certain he’s airborne. I know Blanka and Honda are during their specials because I’ve grabbed them with T. Hawk’s U2.
I don’t think Zangief can use it as anything other than an option-select, if even that, though…
As Gouken, you can sometimes just jump backwards when as he’s getting up, and at least get a sweep.
Thanks for the reply. That’s the only situation against Zangief that I have trouble with. As soon as he has enough meter to perform ultra 2, it’s a nasty 50/50 when he’s in SPD range. Either go airborne to escape a ground-based grapple or stay grounded to avoid an airborne grapple. Both have high damage output. It’s very important to stay out of range at that point and zone, because being pushed into the corner with ultra 2 meter means you’re most likely eating one form of a grapple; at least what I’ve gathered from my theory fighter. Jumping to air tatsu out could very easily net an ultra two punish against someone with average to solid reactions. Either during the jump before activating, or after activation during recovery.
Anyone have any good input on this? I’ve fought some good Zangief players (aquasilk, Vangief) who’ve gotten me into this situation and it feels like a complete coin toss to net a win on the round.
St mk is good when zoning Gief due to its far and high range and Gief having a big hit box…
I’ve only seen ex psycho crusher punished by ultra 2 by prediction. Block stun is too good and recovery is too fast.
A fight with a good zangief is more like 40/60 the whole time if you get knocked down. It’s almost always in giefs favor regardless because if you do escape you are basically at even but you are closer than you would like. The last time I played a good gief, I was not able to escape. If he is smart and mixes in empty jumps on your wake up with lariats or spd, what can you really do except ex tatsu and even then it’s a guess that takes meter and a very punishable one. The whole match depends on you staying on your feet. It can feel worse than the Akuma match for me. It seems like if I jump out, I eat lariat, if I block, I get grabbed, backdash is a bad joke, ex flip is useless, neutral jump is another gamble. Seriously, what is the tech here to help the situation. Amigo once told me to eat the cross over attack so he can’t throw you due to hitstun. I’ve tried it and it actually worked a few times when he wasn’t just going for lariat anyway. If he empty jumps, you lose. Bloody tears.
EX Tatsu FADC escapes both grabs and Ultra 2, doesn’t it?
The only downside is if he does EX Green-hand and goes through your kick, and you eat a lv.3 punish
Provided his cross up doesn’t mess with your inputs, EX tatsu FADC should almost always escape giefs wake up pressure…but that’s 3 meter so it’s not always available, and if the tatsu is blocked, you are now most likely closer to the corner if you back dashed or right next to him if you forward dashed. If his reactions are good, you still eat spd after forward dash…maybe cl.st.mk xx lp.palm is safe but I’m not even sure of that.
1)Sweep is a great option. The reason people go for the cr.hp xx lp.fb is because it continues the pressure (fairly) safely, does a bit more damage than the sweep, and if the combo hits you can FADC it into an extended combo that will end in a knockdown. Honestly, there are some characters that I don’t feel getting a knockdown on provides any benefit other than giving the other player a breather. Some here are superior in their wake up pressure than me though, but let’s say you sweep Oni, or DeeJay. Now what? You still have to gamble when they wake up that what you are doing to pressure them won’t be beaten by their ridiculous reversal options.
2)I prefer FADC cr.hp xx palm (ex palm if there’s meter) or FADC cr.lk xx hk.tatsu. Depends on the character and how sharp I am that day.
3)I don’t believe so. You should be able to Denjin after mp.palm if it was done from almost max range and pushes the opponent to the corner, with you being maybe 1 square away. Don’t quote me on it.
4)This is curious for me too. I am pretty sure it has to do with how close to you the opponent is when he is initially hit. The further he is, the more frames you have to recover before he bounces off the wall.
- This sounds like an execution issue. I’m not sure what you are doing wrong. It’s a pretty important tool so you need to go to training and practice it. I find that cr.hp is a little easier to cancel into flip, but you’re giving up a little damage too.
- you can only connect after denjin when opponent is grounded when hit. if they’re air-born then you’re only getting the combo from denjin, nothing else. BUT, I THINK, don’t quote me on this piece of information, but if you’re in the corner and you hit them in the air with a denjin, you might be able to finish with diagonal j. hk. i might be wrong though, i’m not able to test it.
- Corner Denjin works on all version of palm.
I’m going to have to test this again, but I believe that ex tatsu FADC back dash nets you eating ultra 2, unless the recovery frames of back dash finish before: Zangief’s block stun frames + Zangief ultra two start up frames. Also this scenario is specific to Zangief actually blocking the ex tatsu.
If he empty safe jumps into ultra 2 then the goal here is to find out whether wake up ex tatsu is airborne by the time ultra 2 becomes active. If it’s not, then the first hit should net a full tatsu, provided Zangief himself isn’t invincible during or after start up. If that were the case, then Gouken would be grounded during the first hit of tatsu, hence punishing Zangief’s air grapple attempt. If Zangief is invincible long enough during and after start up of ultra 2, Gouken might be in airborne tatsu animation, netting Zangief an ultra 2 punish while it’s still active.
I’m going to test this when I get out of work today, because this could make or break the guessing game when he has ultra 2 and is close range.
Please feel free to critique my logic on this if anyone can provide further insight or info I might have missed.
**Edit: **I checked the Frame Data out for EX Tatsu and For Zangief Ultra 2. Here are the things I could find out. EX Tatsu starts up in 7 frames, and it’s invincible for the first 1-8 frames. Meaning it’s invincible on the first active frame. Gouken’s back dash is a total of 25 frames. Zangief’s Ultra 2 starts up in, based on both EventHubs.com and Shoryken.com wiki, 0+3 frames. Doesn’t anyone know what “0+3” means? It’s active frames say “-” (hyphen). Does this mean it starts up in 3 frames? Does this mean that it starts up in 0-1 frames and is active for 3? Could it mean it has a no frame or three frame startup? It apparently is NOT invincible at any time.
Things I could not find out. The total number of frames a character is in block stun after blocking an EX Tatsu. While I know Gouken is airborne for a specific amount of time, I couldn’t find out how long (though, I do believe that in the updates from Super to AE, Gouken’s backdash gained airborne properties during frames 1-6 though this is not otherwise stated anywhere in frame data, even in the EventHubs.com dash frame data). I couldn’t find out how long Ultra 2 was active for. In the frame data on both sites, there is no value.
Seems like the only way to test this is to get in the lab, record CPU Zangief during different knockdown situations (hard/soft knockdown), and have him block tatsu xx FADC and try to reversal and non-reversal ultra 2. Try also Zangief jump-in with an attack that Gouken needs to block, and then try an empty jump in as well. Sorry if no one else is interested in this. But for some reason this is blasting my curiosity levels through the roof.
I think you are only able to combo after Denjin when you charge it to at least level 2. I don’t think the level 1 denjin has the juggle properties.
doesn’t this only work in the corner? when i tried it his limbs were too short to reach after the fireball… or are you just referring to doing mp to lp fireball instead of having the crhp in the middle? also doesn’t cr.mk give you more range than cr.lk?
It’s as SunSun said, grounded vs airbourne whether you can follow up, you can do a FA > Denjin Lv1(Grounded) > Mp Palm.
I also am unaware of j.HK after cornered airbourne denjin.
My instinct is “NO!”
You do not need to be in the corner to do this combo but you do need to be fairly frame perfect on the focus cancel. I do recall that on some characters one will work while the other won’t. Go to training and try it with a few different characters. It definitely hits on Gouken and any other big hurtbox characters. I still have the bruises from SUNSUNMCNASTY blasting me with it. The cr.lk xx hk.tatsu definitely works on Ryu sized characters unless they have some awkward hit stun properties. I swear that FADC cr.hp xx ex palm works as I’ve won rounds with it. It’s big damage and leads to a reset or Denjin if you like. If you don’t like the cr.hp link after cl.st.mp, just cancel the mp into fireball and you should have no problem with this FADC.
Also, cr.mk is stubby and close to the body so it gives you less range to work with than cr.lk. I don’t think it will connect after the kind of cancel I’m talking about but it would be great if it did. You might be mistaking Ryu’s cr.mk for Gouken’s and they are two very different beasts.