so here it goes, if you believe in counter teams and you believe that sent/cyke is BETTER than sent/doom, explain to me why that duo just dominates the other? if you can provide us with an answer that has no counter to it, than i will agree with you, till then player skill overrides “counters” there fore character counters do not exist. How are you going to compare cyke to doom 1 to 1 when we are discussing the duos built for the same character?
Accoarding to everyone theories mag/storm/sent/cable are better then IM but they can still lose to him. Even amongst the top 4 somehow each character counters another but they can all still lose to any one of the other 3 due to team chemistry.
If you were to say, Sent/cyke has an easier time against sent/doom than the other way around, i would agree but as to consider it a counter is placing a limit on what the duo can do. People who think one team counters enough either
a)hasn’t seen someone with a mastery of the duo go at it with its bad match up or
B)hasn’t exposed themselves to the counter enough or otherwise they wouldn’t consider it a counter.
Now we are keeping this discussion strictly to team chemistry. To realize that one has a harder time against another team is one thing with that in mind you can find a way around these bad matchups and break your habits, but to call something counter is just limiting yourself and makes you beleive what you do with the team only works against certain teams, nothing is definite in marvel. If anyone in general blames their loss on a team countering theirs than they should just quit, they won’t get any better thinking that way.
I emailed J360 because I didn’t want to fill this S/D thread with a bunch of, IMO, stuff that shouldn’t be argued. I’ll just say OBVIOUSLY skill/smarts/knowledge plays a role. OBVIOUSLY it’s not exactly rock/paper/scissors because it’s not so absolute win/lose as that (unless there’s a big enough gap in skill between players) and OBVIOUSLY rock/paper/scissors doesn’t involve skill (lol except maybe in guessing)
When snake mentioned “baiting the cyc” that’s basically hoping that your opponent is a worse player/will fall for something like that/etc.etc. but when the player knows how to use his cyc advantage wisely, that’s when such silly things as “bait the cyc” doesn’t matter. of course baiting is entirely valid, as long as you’re a better player or your opponent falls for that certain thing…but seriously…as I said there’s OBVIOUSLY still a skill factor and obviously still counters (not absolute counters…perhaps you d00ds are thinking too absolute as in a player with a better team but stinks at marvel will beat a great player with a worse team…which I would assume would be obvious to you guys that that’s not the case…but whatever…)
talking about this is very important imo. Having multiple views on one topic from several players can only contribute better to a core idea.
I understand both sides of the argument and both sides have valid points. As far back as I can remember, early in marvel till about a year or so ago, people often felt like thrax was a direct counter to msp. Not in the sense that its a “counter team” but more long the lines that thrax can stop pretty easily stop what magneto likes to do but as time went on, msp players learned to how to play smarter and dodge mando allowing for the position needed to land a hit or multiple mixup’s. Even though thrax counters msp’s best options, it doesn’t stop msp from doing what msp does. MSP just has to approach the fight differently and apply different options to gain his best options. Its an adaption of MSP players over time.
imo, a “counter team” is a team that counters a teams best possible options but that doesn’t mean that a “counter” team can win every time nor does it mean that the team that is being “countered” will lose 100% of the time. For instance, SSD can stop scrub with cable on point fairly well. Cables best option, ahvb, can be stopped by striders bomb+drones. Even if cable calls sentinel to absorb the bomb, there’s an option to stop this as well:looney:. Strider’s teleport practically negates cable’s psuedo trap’s and proper zoning but this doesn’t mean that scrub with cable on point can’t beat strider. Strider’s general game counter’s what cable is good @ thus being imo, a counter team. Cable has to simply move differently and approach the fight differently. He’s still just as effective against strider once he figures out the fight. He just has to be a little more careful and stat away from the options that counter him.
You can call it what you want, there are certain teams that force others teams to approach a fight differently. You can call it a bad matchup or a favorable matchup or a counter team. Its a definition that will probably differ from player to player but I understand what snake and j360 mean. There are always options regardless of who you have. If your options are being taken away by a specific team, that doesn’t mean that other options won’t work which in turn will give you the options that make your character effective but for the sake of definition, I’m going to call a " counter team " as one team that can stop another teams best options. I name them a counter team to realize what i’m up against not to limit my game play. By understanding and categorizing matchups, imo, it helps you identify that bad parts of the fight and how to manipulate those scenarios to make them less effective or turn around and create CH scenarios from them.
I’m a logical person so I like to break down something to fully understand it so my terminology is usually off.
Yeah, I call them matches “you have to play different” on. Against Strider with cable, IMO it’s better to play rush down instead of keep away. Now, maybe someone misunderstood when I said some stuff up there. When I said “limit yourself” I meant it and I like how people label characters and end up using them how they’re “suppose” to be used and end up confused. Since a year ago, I stopped really posting on here, heh, I know what shoult means when he says “it’s time for him to get better” I don’t give advice or help online because things never get across correctly. Due to skill differences, people take things in differently that they read online. it’s hard to do anything about it. Besides, “best options” on one team can work against a certain team, but not against another, thus leaving another option as “best option” so It’s in the gray zone if you think about it like that.
Shult, you’re going to FinalRound this year? Try coming to NEC in philly, in December.
Edit: If anyone calls me nonsense, I’ll be interested in seeing how well they play against me and my “nonsense” and my “LOL”. Just wanted to put that out there…
HELL YEA, i’ll be @ final round. I know I said that last year, but i’ll plan my ride with someone who’s confirmed into going and has made reservations and the like. My last ride shitted on me less than a week of FR and that won’t happen again.
we’ll get up as planned and i’ll finally be able to see some other s\d players other than myself which is one hell of a change.
j360, snake, I hope you guys puff puff pass because there will be alot of that where ever I go lol.
I wonder if sanfords sent\doom could beat sanfords sent\capcom or sent\cyke? When I try to imagine a counter fight or the possibility of counters to a hard match up, I try to think what if the best player of said character can do if he could play himself. That way, its the highest level of each duo vs each other.
That method probably doesn’t work but it does put a lot of ideas into your head and possibilities to try.
Earlier today, I killed my friends team in about 15 seconds after I dhc-ed. He had matrix while I had ssd. His robot has about 20% left with pretty healthy assists. He’s in good shape. I have about 30% left too with doom around 70% life. His robot goes into flight and call cyclops, I actually anticipated this, dashed backed, spit+doom, HSF, DHC into orbs as the first sets pops them up, HOLD UP. Now cyclops is in front of me so I need to get him into the assist kill position. My friend knew not to roll because he knew that it would slide the assist to my back after the HSF hit him so he’s sitting around 3\4 screen while cyclops is 25% in front of me. After I realized he was just chilling, I did a NJ qcf+fp, the horizontal scoot across, mash LP for orbs. This drags cyke’s assist up and over sentinel. As strider recovers, he turns around automatically to face towards sentinel and thus automatically moving the assist to your back while creating a pin @ the same time on point. After I did the qcf+fp, I landed and called doom and chipped his robot to death. The very last part of the doom rocks popped cyke into air and I got a c.fp, dead cyke. As storm was coming in, I timed a bomb+drones, cross up for 40% life as she was coming in from a dead body. Then basically trapped her to death after that.
qcf+fp for the purpose of moving assists around the screen+trap @ the same time works fairly well when you take factor in what can be done to strider @ that given time. I’ve had times where this would miss on the assist because of orbs patterns but basically unblockable sent @ the same time. Even though it CAN mess up, its been very reliable in my experiences in the sense that you can count on the setup to work. Watch out which characters you try it on and what position your in, where you will land and if the opponent is trying to guard cancel because they’re all factors to consider. You can set it up to be safe. Usually to move the assist to your back and trap the point @ the same time IS very tricky to accomplish. My way basically kills 2 birds with 1 stone and keeps the inputs very simple so execution doesn’t become a factor.
lol it was a good thing I only bothered IMing J360. the other person doesn’t seem to be able to read (either?). again, still lol @ “limiting yourself” but then again, the person doesn’t seem to have enough brain cells to comprehend a post. Obviously “best options” change for different teams…but then again this person’s other post was a whole lotta obvious…
“bait cyke”…wow tell me more
"stay outta the corner"…omg genius
"don’t mash assist"…I would have never thought of that!
“just play, try not to get hit”…again wow…infact there were a lot of “trys” in that post
"something"…okay…
this isn’t so much bashing someones skills (though maybe?) as it is the post itself. it could be better, like actually posting something for Sent/Doom vs. an at least decent Sent/Cyc (like one that won’t necessarily get baited)
EDIT: lol…the post was nonsense, don’t try sounding smart there, it didn’t work. and again, the LOL was @ the other comments.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for playing teams AND keeping with them, even when you play teams that have the game in their favor (counter…then again, perhaps it’s just the defintion of the word that’s problem?) I keep with my anakaris teams/chun teams/Iron Man (god…why do I still play him…)/msp type teams even though Santhrax pretty much obliterates them and that’s how I’ve gotten better with the teams/found ways around things. “limiting” is dependant on the player, regardless of how they feel about counters and whatnot. I suppose either opinion can make the player better, though both pretty much leads to the same thing in the end.
all around, I suppose it was the differentiating defintions of “counter” though I think it was still a problem there from “someone” because “someone” defined it too absolutely/black&white. which I whould have assumed to have been obvious to anyone as that’s usually never the case…but then again…
Just wanted to put that out there.
I don’t expect a useful post from said person where they actually read/comprehend anything. But it would be a nice surprise =]
anyway
I don’t usually pit any one player’s team against another team they may use. because they may not be as good with one as the other simply put. But I believe Sanford’s Sent/Cyc would own his Sent/Doom (which btw would be amusing to watch) because I feel Cyc helps with Sanford’s (and a lot of sents) aggressive play. Of course it really depends on who can “get on” the other first. though Cyc is better at helping get a flying Sent off of you…because doom can usually be stomped in the head in a situation where you couldn’t really do that to cyke.
I ASSUME he can play sent\doom a little but he doesn’t need to be an expert w\it to know whats effective. I just use that way of thought to understand what a high level sentinel player would do to approach the fight. How would he maintain dominant sentinel position w\o the aid of an assist? could he fight that way w\o dumping bar to slow the game down? could he constantly keep his pacing up vs multiple strategies vs a wide spectrum of player arch types?
sigh… i see what you mean. people here in my place switch to matrix or scrubclops everytime i start using SSD. i try to predict the cyke** and counter call with doom**. but it gets a little hard sometimes considering that doom** loses most of the time.
Yeah, play me and I guarantee something will be “LOL” and that’s me bodying you. Besides I ONLY play good Sent/Cykes…I live in NY, who do you think I play with? Yipes, Sanford, J360, liston, merdoc, Smoothviper, shall I name more? Assist is necessary in a match no matter what, I was giving out general tips, not details, people tend to toss around Doom freely in matches. Do you even play Sent/Doom? Like I said, come see me…
damn, w\in the span of a few minutes, this thread got serious.
w\e snake says about sent\doom i’m going to listen to him even if they’re general for the reasons he listed above. He plays with some ma fuggin beasts and judging by the way he plays, he knows a thing or 2 about w\e he’s talking about.
In the end after the tricks and gimmicks, all you’re left with is playing solid so the general tips are always the best.
I read it buddy, and you sound like a dumbass. the only thing you assume too much of are your bullshit posts, that’s why no one gets them but you. Who are you? Are you in your own world? I have never heard of your scrubby ass. Here you are putting down a player that is a zillion times better than you instead of posting something useful. WHO ARE YOU MY DUDE?!
but i’ll plan my ride with someone who’s confirmed into going and has made reservations and the like. My last ride shitted on me less than a week of FR and that won’t happen again.