Just looking for input on this in general, and for each character specifically.
As stated I’d like to keep discussion for each character in the separate threads I am making in their respective sub forums, and input on the idea in general in the above thread.
Also as stated, despite discussion in this thread being open to anyone it would help me separate the wheat from the chaff if each forum could appoint someone who knows what the hell they are talking about to give me the numbers to plug into my spread sheet.
My garbage numbers for Gen:
U1
Endurance - 1
Reversal ---- 3
AA ------------ 3.5
Zoning ------- 2
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 4
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 1
U2
Endurance - 1
Reversal ---- 3
AA ------------ 3.5
Zoning ------- 2
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 4
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 1
Other than the Endurance these are little more than place holder numbers. Input greatly appreciated.
The end result of all of this will be a spreadsheet with pull down menus to compare up to three characters like so:
I was going to write an explanation for each of my statistics, but doing so would impart knowledge to a userbase that probably scoff at Gen’s capabilities given technical understanding and execution.
U1
Endurance - 1
Reversal ---- 3.5
3frame hands no ex
7frame high starting hitbox reversal, Ex provides invincibility
AA ------------ 4.5
Best Normals Ever. and Gekiro combos into crane u1
Zoning ------- 4
Normals!!!
Rush --------- 3.5
I’ll say this much, off of a jab, Gen can 1frame link into a combo (TC2) into Ex.Hands and finish hands (on the 1st or 4th hit) to combo into sweep, then he can okizime.
Mix up -------- 3
Unpredictable due to unpopularity. Mixups are risky but yield big rewards.
Dmg pot ----- 3.5
Average until he gets super, there is no reason Gen cant land super once he gets it, unless he doesnt hit you at all.
Viability ------- 3
Easy: after a jab mash mk/hp to get either a TC2 combo into hands, or a blockstring that pushes your opponent out of punish range.
Viability: Nub almost OCV’d Alex Vaye, Marn, and Mike Ross with Gen.
U2 Does not offer much more in the ways of control, or more damage. Crane U2 offers some zoning but is not fast enough to be considered more reliable than comboing into mantis u2, great air to air though.
Viability as it sits now is pretty weak of a number. I just took the old tier list from January, and assigned a numeric value to each of the letter ratings, then averaged the ratings given by the three pros.
Here is the list:
I’m not happy with the results, I may do it again, or wait until a MU chart is released. Then I can make the viability number reflect the number of good and bad match ups.
Going off the numbers that Kahmos posted, I’m not sure I’d agree with Reversal being 3.5. Hands is not invincible, and so only works in a few situations (mostly) consistently [Dictator, Zangief come to mind immediately]. And gekiro kinda sucks as a reversal, even EX (Though EX certainly less so), so I’d probably give reversal for Gen like a 2, maybe a 2.5. AA, I might even consider Gen having a 5. He’s got amazing AA normals (mantis st.jab and st.mp against dive kick characters/some neutral jump ins, cr. hp, cr.mk; crane cr. hk, cr.mk), a decent AA special in gekiro, and an amazing AA special in the EX Gekiro (Good stun + damage, invuln, etc.). Also, if you can react to their jump with jumping Shakudan, and link it into U1, his AA is downright terrifying for the reward he gets. His damage potential is pretty high even without super loaded (meterless BnB is actually one of the highest in the game, iirc), and with super and full ultra, he can go into bullshit levels of damage. Probably more like a 4 in damage potential. Viability might actually be a bit lower, simply because of difficulty of execution (ie. when you’re in mantis, it can be hard to react to some jump ins by switching to crane and doing cr.hk in time). U2 offers a bit of… I guess you would call it anti-zoning? But I think it still fits, because it scares the opponent from zoning mindlessly with fireballs. I’d consider that part of zoning, but if others wouldn’t, I’m good to change it.
U2
Endurance - 1
Reversal - 2
AA - 4.5
Zoning - 4.5
Rushdown - 3.5
Mix up - 3.5 (cross up/unblockable/uncrouchable Teiga set ups being revealed that seem much much easier than crossup mantis U1)
Damage - 3-3.5
Viability - 2
In reversal situations, hands can be active a frame before 4frame reversals, so they MUST use meter to be faster than it. I remember a video where hands was utilized against a blanka for just that reason, active frames, its a 3frame reversal for pressure. Gekiro’s strait upward hitbox breaks crossups, and bullshit neutral jumps, maybe it doesnt fit the typical shoryu, but it does have its options- its a given that its not a free reversal, you cant recover without a punish if you miss, and you cant fadc out of it. As for the U1/U2 uses, if you watch crosscounter asia no.1 and no.2, Xian who plays Gen proves that U1 offers a fair amount of zoning because he can constantly buffer U1 mantis while playing footies and punish focus fishing, and super for silly neutral jumps. (Gen has no other quarter circle special attacks) U2 mantis since it comes out in 9 frames, can be combo’ed off of counter hit st.mp(+6 on hit), which is not only do-able while buffering/blocking but especially effective as a meaty attack considering st.mp has 5 active frames.
What I am saying is, the threat of a characters ultra can change his opponents offense, like a counter attack ultra versus a dive kick character, its very easy to buffer Ultra to punish a predicted attack. And Gen has absolutely no overlapping inputs for his ultras and special attacks.
P.S. I would consider the length of Gen’s special attacks in combos into how you would rate his mixup, because it leaves more time for the opponent to -wait- impatiently until they have a chance to attack again. Gekiro will soon provide untechable knockdown, wall dive combos into Gekiro, Jayesen can be comboed off of bnb’s on the ground or shakudan from the air- basically Gen can time someone out or wear at their patience, while taking a breath for himself.
Edit: Gen can also buffer/tiger knee crane ultra 2 against focus AND predicted sweeps in recovery frames, still requires a good read and buffering.
No one probably cares about my input since I’m always so negative, but this is how I would rate it.
U1
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1
AA ------------ 2
Zoning ------- 2
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 5
Dmg pot ----- 2
Viability ------- 2
U2
Endurance - 1
Reversal ---- 0
AA ------------ 2
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 5
Dmg pot ----- 1
Viability ------- 1
My reasoning is that reversals are almost completely EX dependent in most situations, and reliable AA’s are limited to just a few stance dependent normals that are highly risky and punishable. Zoning is alright for a character with no fireballs, and rush is pretty good, but hampered by low stun/vitality and few safe-on-block options. Mix up is godlike, considering the 2 unique sets of normals, specials, and ultras, as well as the fact that wall dives can cross up, cancel, go to ceiling, cancel from ceiling, and hit both close and far. Despite the unsafe nature of many of these options, I feel they are still perfectly relevant to Gen’s potential for mix up. Damage potential is low because he can’t very well capitalize for big damage unless he has meter, which is very difficult to build with Gen. Viability ought to speak for itself, I feel that at lower levels Gen simply isn’t viable because of the high level of execution needed to use him, and at higher level play he’s simply outclassed by other characters in any given area.
I find that even though there’s the possibility of big meterless damage, it’s really dependent on landing one of a few specific normals. On the other hand, a character like Akuma seems to be able to take a ton of approach options and convert them into big damage. Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like Gen’s options aren’t reliable enough considering how difficult it can be to start a big damage combo. I like to go for the [c] j.HK xx j.HK into roll, which does okay damage, but getting that jump in is very difficult against most of the cast. As Gen, I don’t think you should be bouncing around too much, he seems best when you keep him glued to the ground and utilize his walk speed advantage over most of the cast.
Every single one of those combos is character specific. They do not, for example, work on the shotos. They are also all done off of a jumpin, which is very easy to defend against. For damage values that matter, look at non-character specific combos off of a 3f or 4f move or a standing punish, in which case you end up with:
[m]c.lk lp TC2 xx lk gekiro, which is what, 209-ish damage? This is for hitting a 1 frame link. And what about punishes where you can’t do a jumpin? You won’t get much higher without meter. The most common punish I see is TC2 xx hk gekiro, which is also around 210 damage.
Meanwhile, look at, say, Cody. A trivial combo is c.lp c.lp c.lp c.lk xx h.criminal. Extremely easy to pull off for 166 damage. Without the dead-easy hitconfirm, you’ve got c.lp c.mp h.criminal for xx 208 damage. Same damage as Gen’s main combo, but much easier. Then we get into the slightly harder to hit stuff: c.mp c.lp c.mp xx h.criminal for a still easy 240 damage, more than Gen can do without meter or jumpin. Cody’s rough equivalent to Gen’s 1f BnB combo, s.mp c.fp h.criminal, does a whopping 298 damage! Add a jumpin for some really impressive damage - and it’s not even character specific.
Cody is not terribly exceptional in this regard. More characters than him can do more than 200 damage off of a jab or c.lk, and reaching 300 damage on a standing punish is not uncommon. Given this, I’d say Gen’s damage potential is a 2 or a 3 on a scale of 1 to 5, especially considering that his non-character specific BnB combo is a 1 frame link. There’s no value for “difficulty” in the graph, so IMHO it should be factored into the different values themselves which is what brings Gen down a notch.
Please not that I’m not saying that Gen is not viable. I love the character and he does have a solid game against most characters, but pure damage is not his strong point.
Really? Only on deep jumpins then, I guess? I’ve never managed to land a shakudan [m]mp TC2 on the shotos in a match, and only rarely in training (very deep jumpins - not viable in a match). And following up with a HK gekiro seems completely futile as it seems to miss even on deep jumpins. Is there a video of someone hitting a shoto with jumpin [m]mp TC2 xx h.gekiro?
Here’s my thoughts just for shiggles. Though possible to change after v2012. Should possibly wait for 2012 to even really do anything like this really.
[INDENT=1]U1[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Endurance - 1[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Reversal - 2[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]AA -4 (God crane super is INSANE for AA… Gekiro is really good if timed and spaced right, and normals also amazing AA. And if you have the reactions even CU1 is a great AA)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Zoning - 4.5(With the exception of certain matchups like people with free footsies like Ken and Akuma, Gen can be brutal for zoning.)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Rushdown - 3.5[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Mix up - 2(Pretty bad mixup. The only reason this could go any higher is character knowledge as Gen can mix up pretty easy if a player doesn’t know him at all)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Damage - 4[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Viability - 4[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]U2 Doesn’t change much of anything really. Maybe lowers Viability, but only depending on the matchup. It CAN be good. But U1 is just that much more reliable. So not much point in using it. Though I still think U2 could use more experimentation. I think the biggest problem with U2 is you are potentially losing a LOT of damage if you land a super as MU2 is garbage, especially after a combo’s already landed it scales like crazy.[/INDENT]
