No, EX Moonsault is +1 so grab is a common tick option. Any V-Reversal done that late will just get scooped.
Ah fair enough, that makes sense. It looked instantaneous and as I didn’t get to play during beta 3 I wasn’t sure if I’d missed something like some option select grabs or something. 
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt1/NSH-SPININGBACK-0
Has anyone looked at Dantarian’s SFV hitbox viewer for Nash? Kind of interesting to see where his hit and hurt boxes are situated on his best pokes.
I was wondering where his hit and hurtbox was situated during Back Fist and Bazooka Knee. If you look at Back Fist the hit and hurt boxes are exactly how the character model animations look. It looks like his entire arm is a hitbox instead of just his fist area so when you’re spacing this at range I can see why this is safe/difficult to punish. Once the attack is done the arm doesn’t have a hurtbox on it. and it’s the body the opponent needs to hit, which they’re not going to be able to with proper spacing. Nothing particularly new here but nice to see the hitbox data match up to what we’ve discovered by feel.
The hitbox on Bazooka Knee is actually pretty small but the hitbox itself is pretty high so this again makes sense of why it’s a consistent anti-air at farther ranges. It does look like you could low profile it though if any crouching attacks have that property. Would have to mess around with hitbox interactions between this and Sim slides/Chun cr.Strong.
Yea I looked at all that. I wish I could see the V-Skill in Beta 1 compared to 3, which is terrible looking now.
i panicked during the last match because it was already the minute the beta was supposed to end. lol, right on time.
So what uses have people found for his Tragedy Assault and MP LK HP target combos? Does LP TA combo off a st.mp? If so I could see it being a decent combo ender; give up some damage for sucking some meter. For the Target Combo you can go into off a cr.mp hit confirm; is the positioning worth doing less damage than just going into HK SS?
I’ve gotten used to going for damage over meter steal more often since meter just builds so fast to begin with. Could be viable though. HP TA is the best meterless followup to a long range f+HP crush counter; does decent meterless damage, meter steal and corner carry all in one.
It only combos off C.MP, otherwise you need counter-hits. I’m struggling to find any real use for Light Tragedy Assault tbh. Apart from very early on in a round in a match-up where you are reliant on meter, or want to take away the opponents meter when they have super, the lack of follow-up potential and scaled meter gain makes it hard to justify using it over virtually anything else. I find it more useful in the midrange to go “over” fireballs instead of jumping but it’s still not a reliable reason for it’s use; not for me anyway. If the meter gained from Tragedy Assault wasn’t scaled for the light version only, it’d have so many more possibilities with regards to meter or damage decisions but right now, it’s just not worth it. Medium version will get a lot of mileage because it combos off S.HP, which people will be looking to link into after counter-hits. Heavy is great after a F.HP Crush Counter, building you nearly a whole bar. Not seeing much use of the EX version except late in rounds for the extra health gain really or styling combos.
MP, LK, HP Target Combo gives you great corner carry as well as continued pressure, so in situations when whiff punishing, you either go for more damage (Sonic Scythe) or corner carry and positioning. It certainly get a lot of use when people want to start making comebacks as you get the most options from it rather than a Sonic Scythe ender.
Just a minor correction: LP TA combos off of b+MK as well. You should be able to do cr.MP, b+MK xx LP TA for decent damage corner carry and some meter gain but RH SS will always do more damage as a combo ender.
You’re giving up 16 damage (210 vs 194) in a two medium combo to go with LP TA instead of RH SS so it doesn’t seem to be that big of an issue. I think what really matter is how good the oki is after an LP TA; if it’s better than RH SS I can very much see it being a go to combo. The EX version seems decent for starting VTC combos as you get a lot of corner carry off it while not losing that much damage.
But outside of figuring out the best combo ender, my general idea on TA is that MP is for as you said, either CH cr.mp/cr.hp in st.hp combos (not that hard to set up) or for spaced jump ins where you can’t link two mediums. HP is for f.hp CCH. EX is fast enough to combo out of any cancelable normal, but just looking at the frame data you may be able to link into it at ranges where other followups would whiff off a CH cr.hp.
Also, since the frame data sadly doesn’t have the damage his MP -> LK -> HP target combo does could someone post it? I’m trying to get my thoughts in order there about when to use what. Right now most of his other TCs have obvious uses; MK HK MK is a confirmable poke string, LK MK is a fast close range confirm, LP MP is a slightly further away fast confirm that generally needs meter to be safe, and cr.mp f.mp stops fuzzies once you’ve convinced them to not press buttons. His command normals are generally pretty straight forward as well: f.lk is an anti-air, f.mk is to beat anyone’s cr.mk, f.hk is a long ranged poke, f.hp is to try and stuff a walk forward poke or whiff punish attempt, and b.mk is a tight frametrap button which links into V Skill on CH and is safely cancelable with meter.
Nash’s only real weaknesses are that he lacks a standard st.mk to poke with, his alternatives being either slow (f.mk, f.hk, f.hp) or vulnerable to standard anti-low moves (cr.mk, although it’s really good), having a lack of comboable lows outside of point blank range, slow walkspeed, and no reversal. Everything else seems really good and I suspect he’ll be high tier if nothing significant changes come the final build. Going to be fighting with Karin to be my second pick at least.
It does indeed, thanks for that.
You get no oki after any normal Tragedy Assault. Just eyeballing it, Nash is probably +5/+6 after the move but you’re too far away to do anything to the opponent. Any jump-in can be reacted to with a normal/air-to-air, you’d still be in a forward dashes recovery and his walkspeed is too slow to walk into meaty range. Only thing you can do after it is a Knee Bazooka (which can be link into Rapid Punch (S.LP, S.MP) on Counter-Hit but it’s unsafe on block), or a Step Kick (F.HK) which can be cancelled into V-Trigger (ground version only) but you can’t get much damage off of it (you can get about 280 damage meterless). However Step Kick requires the opponent to press a button or it whiffs (there’s no need to be pressing buttons that far away) and Knee Bazooka is at least -1 on block. It’s why I think this should be the only version of TA that doesn’t scale. The meter you gain from it in a combo is roughly the same as just ending with a Medium Sonic Scythe for corner carry, and just following up with a standard string, building that extra meter on block but with the added bonus of potentially getting a hit in, plus doing white chip damage and putting the opponent under pressure.
MP, LK, HP target Combo is 144 damage, 209 stun.
MK, HK, MK Target Combo is -6 on block, so I don’t think it can be used as a confirm, as the HK puts you right on top of the opponent and the blockstun isn’t weird enough to be used for gimmicks.
Also, you sure B.MK links into V-Skill on Counter-Hit? I never got it to work. I only found a good use for it with C.HP Counter-Hits (to catch back dashing).
he’s +7 on quickrise on tragedy assault
You can confirm just the MK part of the target combo, plus it stops at HK on block anyways so you’re not directly on top of them. But damn, I suppose that means using LP TA is probably more of a corner only thing as IIRC RH SS does give you enough time to dash up and do something. Could still be useful midscreen if you don’t want to risk their wakeup game and instead get sonic boom pressure started but probably not. This also means that it does comparable damage to the Target combo ender. So depending on how his oki game ends up being you may just want to go for the TC ender as it’s just a 20 damage difference if it increases your odds of getting another hit by anything at all.
So basically I should use the TC ender more and only use LP TA if it’ll make their wakeup game less scary by knocking them away from either 1 bar or full bars. Do we know how decent the oki is off an MK TA as to make going into it instead of RH SS off a cr.mp/cr.hp CH -> st.hp worthwhile? Since the damage is equal to the RH SS and I’d love for it to be pretty useful there outside of the corner. HP TA is then great for f.hp CCH combos as Moonsault will just air reset instead of letting you get a combo like st.hp will due to it being cancelable.
I’m fairly sure of b.mk on counterhit going into VS; it’s +4 and as a medium should get +2 on CH, with VS being 6f startup.
So my combo theory of Nash is thus
Combo starters
Note: Any time you could go into MK SS or RH SS you can also do a MK SS xx CA ender
Jabs: MK SS. Can do EX SS or EX TA for lots of extra damage or some extra damage + lifesteal. Probably use EX TA for VTC combos as you get all the hits from it (need to check)
cr.mp: On regular hit you can go into cr.mp (close), st.mp (mid), or VSkill (far). TC ender gets you the best oki while SS (MK is at the edge, RH if closer) gets you more damage. Can also do EX SS or EX TA for damage, although you should probably go with RH SS if close enough for VTC combos. LP TA can also be used off a cr.mp -> cr.mp in the corner if it will deny them a wakeup super or EX move. At the very edge you may also need to just link into VS to end the combo if st.mp won’t reach.
cr.hp: Link into cr.mp (only if you’re going for LP TA), st.mp, or VS depending on range. Same ender advice as cr.mp otherwise.
Jump in: If you’re close enough to do two mediums the most damage you’ll get is from doing the cr.mp route. Further away doing st.hp into the same cancel enders is the optimal choice, however you can substitute LP TA for MP TA which does as much damage as RH SS while stealing more meter.
Frametrapping with cr.mp: it’s +2 on block which makes going into cr.mp or st.mp a 4f gap and b.mk a 3f gap. The priority system means you beat jabs that would otherwise trade, so if you’re up close and they only have 4f jabs you can basically go into cr.mp again every time. If they have 3f jabs you should consider using b.mk as it’ll counterhit them (I’m fairly sure of b.mk on counterhit going into VS; it’s +4 and as a medium should get +2 on CH, with VS being 6f startup giving you a safe link). If you’ve pushed outside of their jab range you can also go into cr.hp for a 5f gap (but beats any mediums they might press).
If you an confirm a counterhit off a cr.mp or cr.hp, go into st.hp. You can end with either RH SS or MP TA which do the same damage but give you the choice of oki or metersteal. RH SS is your pick for VTC combos. You can also do EX SS or EX TA if you want more damage or lifesteal instead of metersteal.
A CH off a b.mk will probably only get you either a st.mp if you’re somehow close enough or a VS at further ranges. As with a CH st.mp, it may be prudent to just take the frame advantage to move forward or to cancel into EX SB which is + on block, still combos on regular hit if they tried to jump out, and gets you a decent bit of damage on hit.
CCH combos
st.hp xx LP Moonsault -> LP xx MP xx RH SS is your optimal meterless combo. If you want to blow bar, consider doing EX Moonsault for enough frame advantage to land a medium confirm string instead of having to do your jab to medium target combo.
f.hp -> HP TA or dash forward RH SS. I’m not sure how them being airborne when the SS hits interacts with VTC combos here so I don’t know if you will have to spend meter to get VTC combos. HP TA does do more damage and has a decent chunk of metersteal so I prefer it here. A raw CA also functions perfectly fine for max damage.
I’m not sure what the optimal VTC combos to go for are though. I was finding MP SB combos to be super finicky in B3, but I assume the optimal route is any medium into MP SB xx Forward VTC, j.hp -> cr.hp -> st.mp -> ender. I ended up often doing anything into RH SS FVTC (first hit) nj.hk -> LK SS. You can also probably do MP SB xx Backwards VTC -> j.hp -> st.hp xx ender for same side corner carry and only give up 18 damage (and going into st.mp TC is also an option instead of st.hp).
With Raptor Combination, the HK moves you forward enough that you can get hit by any character’s medium buttons and with the long blockstun, it’s a fairly easy punish. I think it’s bordering impossible to hit-confirm just the MK as well, as the window to cancel into the HK is very small. I can only find use for this Target Combo as a whiff punish. If people are walking forward, you have better options and it also sucks that it whiffs on crouching opponents unless you’re really close.
I haven’t been thinking about corner pressure at the moment, TA will definitely become viable there. It’s certainly better to do it than Light (more damage) or Medium (equal damage) Sonic Scythe enders in the corner.
Heavy Sonic Scythe gives you enough space and time to create solid left/right, high/low and hit/throw mix-ups, on both recoveries, so it’s up to the player to decide whether they want meter (and stealing the opponents) or damage and stun.
The oki is exactly the same for Light/Medium/Heavy TA. The decision is solely meter based. Light TA takes off about 15% from the opponent’s meter, Medium takes away about 33% and Heavy takes away 50%. Medium TA from S.HP is certainly going to be worthwhile depending on match-ups.
B.MK into V-Skill Frame data online also shows it as +2. Are you getting your data from a later build? (hope you are; B.MK, V-Skill seems quite fun)
Also, do you have any ideas on uses for EX Sonic Boom? I found myself never using it outside of jab into V-Trigger.
You’re right, I was looking at the wrong data for b.mk, that’s a damn shame. I’m also pretty certain you can’t get a left/right going off a non-hard KD in this game, and you can confirm his MK HK TC if you’re really looking for it with a bit of practice, although it’s just on the edge of reactions.
EX SB seems to be most useful either in neutral (get two fireballs out there to cover more screen space) or as a + on block ender which you can VTC on hit for a combo. So off any cancelable normal you can’t link out of you can toss in the EX SB if you think it might connect (namely st.mp and b.mk). It’s also useful as you said, for getting VTC combos out of jabs as I think it ends up doing more damage than going into EX TA or EX SS.
you playing nash now?
i started playing a few days ago, so far i’ve only used him but he’s fun.
who u using? i will steal your tech like old times
dunno yet, the last beta phase I couldn’t get in then didn’t play on the last day that they fixed it, and my laptop is below recommended specs until i upgrade.
I’ve messed around in training mode with Nash, Laura, Chun, and Vega. Laura is definitely missing something, I think the other 3 characters are all quite good though. @Windalfr keeps trying to get me on the Nash train.
So you can do a meaty cr.mp into st.hp xx MP TA to repeat the lesson then. Good to know!
Yeah i have been enjoying nash. Good footsies, good fireball, easy super confirms. target combos seem good in ranged footsies too
I think nash may be my go to early on until dlc