Is this the gamescon build?
The game was in beta so I’m not surprised to hear about character changes now but it’s pretty disheartening their nerfing him considering the majority of us at E3 thought he was weak to begin with. I really hate nerfing anti-airs in any game they need to be strong in the first place to force people to play a ground game. Did you notice any potential buffs to the char like faster walk speed or something?
Yes this was the Gamescom build. Necalli and Vega were playable, Stage select was available and they added English VAs.
I also found the nerfs odd. Limiting his AA game and combo potential? At this stage where the game is so far from release, I don’t understand the purpose. Especially when the likes of Cammy, Birdie and Ken seemed capable of so much, just in terms having a lot of easily executable options that are gonna always be effective day 0. Nash in comparison feels like he needs hours of lab time to put himself on par.
OK, I’ll just put the rest of my overall thoughts into more notes. I can go into more detail now that I’ve had some good playtime. I did get a few streaks and skanked some extra matches when I should’ve got off, so I managed a fair few games.
= Noticed nothing different about his walk speed, pretty slow, but slow seems normal relative to the current cast.
= Could only really play footsies with c.MK, c.HK and f+MK. Unfortunately you can’t convert those into damage outside of f+MK on counter hit where you can link a crouch jab or short afterward.
= Outside of those b+MK was actually useful upclose (I wanted to use this more after seeing his early frame data). 5 frame startup and 0 on block. Can be linked into itself after CH (e.g. CH b+MK, b+MK xx MK Scythe), was staggering into it after crouch jab for instance.
= Unfortunately c.MP being so unreliable as an anti-air now means AA c.MP xx HP Boom is no longer a thing… stuck with c.HP which isn’t cancellable
= His air throw kinda sucks. Loses to standard air-to-airs and knocks the opponent near full screen w/ no oki afterward.
= Not really a use for his air normals aside from j.MK (cross-up) or j.HK (jump-in or air-to-air).
= HP Tragedy Assault animation is too obvious to be considered as a viable overhead. I was trying out potential crossup antics with all Tragedy Assault strengths, had no luck lol.
= This is a big maybe, but EX Slash might have been buffed slightly in terms of tracking. I either forced a block or landed a hit every single time I used it (I didn’t use it too much but enough to notice).
= Another big maybe, but EX Scythe wasn’t getting stuffed as much when using it as a reversal. Though it might’ve just been my timing being better/opponents timing being poor (again I didn’t use it much due to how bad it was in the first 2 builds).
As far as general playstyle goes, Nash is pretty weird, especially when he has no V-Trigger. c.HP anti-airs reliably. s.LP also does at certain ranges. I zone a lot with LP Boom till I get a feel for how my opponent responds to them. Typically if zoning, I’m just looking for a way to get HP Boom on the screen safely. That way it can cover his approach or it just allows you to easily react to what the opponent does in response. His Sonic Boom recovery in general isn’t that good, but he has his V-Skill which lets him contest in fireball wars really well. Stick to V-Skill at safe ranges though, it can be baited and punished at midrange. For combo enders I tend to confirm into MK Scythe over HK Scythe as it keeps the opponent closer and recovers faster. f+MK is really important in neutral game, I use this button all the time, its whiff recovery isn’t bad at all but most importantly it is safe when spaced properly, advances Nash forward for extra range, goes over lows, and links into either crouch jab or crouch short on Counter Hit (e.g. CH f+MK, c.LK, s.LP>s.MP xx MK Scythe). His dashes are good considering his slow walkspeed I typically used them to move around on screen opposed to walking. Another important part of his game is using LK Slash in blockstrings after c.LP or s.LP>s.MP target combo. Keeps you point blank at good frames, lets you establish mindgames afterward (throw, low, bait, more pressure, etc.). Interruptible with DPs and such on Slash startup, though at one point I was using HK Slash to fly over DP interrupts. You can’t neglect f+MP at all as you’ll find players will turtle the fuck out of you. On defense your options are generally throw (due to people having incorrect timings, throws between blockstrings and on wakeup work more often than they should), backdash (though backdashes have no inv. anymore), Super (startup inv.), V-Trigger (which I’ll touch on) and V-Reversal (which teleports him to the opposite side on usage).
When your V-Gauge is full, you can let loose a little bit more. Just the threat of V-Trigger alone lets me throw out projectiles more liberally as players typically get tentative. And this is only if they are aware of your options. I used V-Trigger a lot more in neutral this weekend. Firstly, because his V-Trigger combos weren’t working (if they did work, the timing was completely different but I’m certain they were straight removed) and secondly, the extra dimension it gives you was preferrable over any whatever damage gain I got using it in combos. You can get pretty creative with how you use it. Examples: One guy I faced neutral jumped over my Sonic Boom, I reacted with d+HP+HK to put me on the ground behind him, I dashed back under him and landed the hit. On another guy threw out EX Boom vs Ryu regular Hadoken at a little closer than midrange, he eats the second hit, I teleport over with f+HP+HK and get full combo. Best one was against a player who literally jumped my HP Boom for a clean punish, I cancelled late into f+HP+HK, ended up above him and blew him up… Oh and of course there’s his b+HP+HK for fake cross throughs which I was using all day. With V-Trigger he becomes almost like a faster moving Sim. V-Trigger also works great on defence due to startup inv. If you’re being pressured in the corner for instance, you can use f+HP+HK to reverse the situation and put the opponent in the corner. You can also use d+HP+HK to just get yourself out pressure. These can be reacted to of course, nothing in this game is free but they do make Nash somewhat harder to contain. So yeah, you can use V-Trigger to either initiate offense or gtfo… I think it’s pretty awesome.
This is just what has been working for me btw. Might be useful for players who haven’t had a chance to play yet or are looking to pick up Nash next time they get a chance to play SFV. I’ve played him in 3 separate builds now. This shit may not even be viable once the game drops but for now it’s what has been keeping me on the setups despite him being so hard to play.
From over the weekend that’s about everything I’ve got. The nerfs were somewhat worrying but it’s still early days. I don’t think he’s bad but his awkward playstyle, lack of range in combination with his low health, definitely makes him feel limited early on. I’m not saying anything for sure regarding how strong he is as shit will get discovered and characters will get changed as we get closer to release. At this point it doesn’t even matter to me, I’ve exclusively used Nash in every build he’s basically my main at this point.
If they really already nerfed crMP, well that sucks…
I haven’t had the chance to try this game yet.
Nash is the character I like the most up til now, but i have many doubts even if I know there is still time for rebalancing until the game comes out
Last thing, does anyone know if he can start combos from low hits (i.e. crLK)? I don’t remember in the many released gameplay footages, i’ve always seen combos starting from standing hits, but it would be nice if the opponent had to be seriously worried about blocking low at least once in a while.
lol nerfs already? its going to end up like sf4
cr.lk chains into s.lp.
Also everyone is focused on doing target combos, but most characters so far can cancel out of chains. I wouldn’t be surprised if nash can do cr.lk x2 xx special or cr.lk, cr.lk, s.lk xx special.
don’t worry there will be high tier characters who get compensation buffs for all their nerfs for 6 years and stay good!
Currently, his cr.short is not special cancel-able and cr.short x2 puts him out of range for his s.short so that combo doesn’t work also. He can do cr.Short, cr.Jab x2 xx special and I think maybe cr.short x2, s.jab xx special but I think the s.jab had a tendency to whiff outside of point blank range.
@CriminalUpper Were you using his f+RH during footsies? I know that command normal was really good during the e3 build but wondering if they changed it with the gamescon build. I’m really curious what other changes they did with the game in general now because nobody else has reported anything different but I don’t know if they had hands-on experience with the game prior to gamescon.
Which character interests u the most so far?
I’m not not too concerned with tiers this early on, but the fact that Nash is getting shit on AFTER he was pretty clearly the worst character at E3 is a bit concerning.
Special concealable low strong anti air just seems really fun, I hope it comes back.
One more thing, @CriminalUpper said super has invincible startup. I thought it was projectile only?
I’ve seen it by Xian on wakeup, working perfectly (SF4-random-reversal-ultra-like). It clearly looked full invincible to me but i can’t be completetely sure.
I typically had the issue of the last hit of my chain whiffing due to pushback on hit. It’s just something Nash players will have to confirm visually. c.LK, s.LP>s.MP is what I was running mostly but too far out and the last hit whiffs…
As for f+HK yeah I did use it a few times, should’ve talked about it really. It goes over lows like f+MK but with better range. Only difference being I couldn’t really get any counter hit followups (probably the reason I favoured f+MK in the end) since there’s this reel back animation.
Only a handful of us were legit trying to figure out the characters and experiment with the game in general, the rest solely playing to win. I imagine at Gamescom it was even worse as the amount of actual fg players would be even smaller. Pretty much every player who used Nash in my area in the previous builds dropped him for Ken or Necalli. So it felt like I was all alone in trying to find stuff whilst making sure I didn’t lose.
@otter I think it’s just generic startup inv. but it’s definitely there. I beat enough attempted meaty pokes on my wakeup and stuffed enough moves to be sure. After a certain amount of frames he can get hit out of it however.
Necalli
Played a lot of matches recently at Six Flags, they’re using the E3 build (no ken, vega, or necalli) I managed to learn a few things tho:
-Cr.mp B.mk is a really good counterhit setup
-Tried doing Heavy Sonic Boom XX Ground Trigger for a mixup but it wasnt reliable only worked maybe twice out of umteen attempts. Most people threw me out of teleport of jumped over the boom out of instinct so I ended up out of range for anything
-Nash’s target combos aren’t supreme for damage but for offensive pressuring they’re great! I was using his 3-kick target to push the opponent to the corner and to beat out close range normals, and after the knockdown I’d throw a M/H Sonic Boom to maintain pressure. They wake up into the boom, I just had to vary the strength depending on whether they quick rise alot during the match.
-Using his St.Mp F.lk St.hp target combo when the opponent is near the corner is also great for maintaining pressure because you recover quick from the animation and you can manage a meaty cross-up J.mk on their wake-up. Landed that alot
-Mixing up F.mk and cr.mk seemed to be the best way to play footsies against stronger footsie based characters like Chun and Ryu
Something interesting I found while playing is that, not like what I previously thought, you can’t cancel into V-trigger during someone’s Critical Art to save yourself. Example being two separate times I threw a Sonic Boom and while I was mid-release my opponent reacted with Chun’s critical art so of course I start mashing V-trigger like the pro that I am and nothing happened, I ate the super both times. Looks like the game makes you commit to whatever you were doing once Critical art activates.
One other thing I noticed, which I need to test again is that I couldn’t V-reversal out of a blocked Critical Art. I blocked a Critical Art Denjin Hadouken in the corner and was again, mashing forward and three punches to get out of the corner and try to punish but nothing happened. Dunno if someone else can confirm or debunk this theory.
Chuns super might just be too fast to react to. 0 frames post flash up to a certain distance…
Day 2 of my Six Flags play with Nash. Solidified my footsies and safe pressure with him and towards the end of the day I had an AMAZING discovery about one of his more overlooked moves. Here’s what I fleshed out today:
Focused more on maintaining pressure and getting the opponent stunned, so after every successful bnb I threw out a Heavy boom to provide cover while I dash in and force the hi-lo option. Example being I’d end the combo with M Sonic Scythe, throw out a Heavy boom on my recovery and dash with it a certain distance, force them to block the boom on wakeup and then choose between a cr.mk, overhead, cr.lk or a frametrap f.hk. This worked out alot in my favor
A good ‘fake’ blockstring I was using on a blocked jump-in attempt was j.mk, cr.mp, Bullet Clear, and then cr.mk. This had alot of success and at the end of the string it puts you a safe distance away where I could go for a f.mk or f.hp if I chose to. It’s also useful as a counterhit setup, the bullet clear acts as one and if by chance they block that the cr.mk will usually catch their feet, if not, you’re a safe distance away on recovery anyways. Gotta test this out more tomorrow.
Still using the target combos to push the opponent to the corner and force blocking with something meaty on their wakeup (either a boom or a far reaching normal), this allowed for great rushdown pressure and alot of hi-lo mixups by varying between the overhead and one of his lows.
I actually managed to box someone in the corner using just scythes. Once my bnb took the opponent to the corner I’d back up so that my Mk scythe would be at max range, and from there it was all about reads, if I thought they were gonna inch forward to get out of the corner I threw out the Mk scythe, if it caught them great, if they blocked it I’m safe due to the distance, then I’d throw out another (same thing). If I thought they were tryna jump out I would time the Hk scythe so that the very top of the arc hit them back into the corner.
Now for my AMAZING discovery… I honestly don’t know if this had been covered earlier in this forum but I don’t recall so it was to my surprise that I found out EX Tragedy Assault is a great punish for out of range jump-ins. I practiced with this move in the beta and always thought it was weird that the EX one hits twice on block, once when he lunges forward and another when he is coming down, when all of the normal versions only hit going down. Now I know why tho, that first hit when he initially lunges is for SNATCHING people out of the air. Discovered it by accident when I was playing a long range game and tossed a lp boom and as the opponent jumped over it (both of us full-screen) I immediately input the EX Tragedy Assault and caught him before he could touch the ground (like half a character’s length or more from the ground). After this initial finding I did it again in another round intentionally to confirm I wasn’t crazy and sure enough, snatched the opponent right outta the air as they were coming down from their jump arc so it works as a long range anti-air. Couple that with V-trigger and you can squeeze out some nasty stuff and also make it difficult/scary for the opponent to get in on you.
EDIT: Almost forgot to mention this, the second time I baited the jump to test the EX Tragedy Assault theory the opponent was in the corner, I was a little behind mid-screen, not full-screen tho and as they jumped over the boom and the EX Assault snatched them, IT COMBOED, smashing them on top of the boom mid-air then completing the rest of the animation.
I’m going again tomorrow but that’s my final day before I return to work so I’ll put the EX TA setups to use tomorrow, wanna know just how close it works and if an air normal can beat it out. I feel like this is a HUGE game changer for Nash, especially since one of his weaker areas is anti-airs, now I feel like if you can maintain a long-range game with meter the fight will always be in your favor. This playstyle also suits his air throw alot more since it leaves you full-screen anyways. I only wish I wasn’t playing on such an outdated version of the game (E3 build) for all I know most of this stuff may be different by the time the Gamescom build comes around.
Let me know if there is anything you want me to test out tomorrow and I’ll do my best to let you know what I find.
Teleporting out of EX assault makes a lot more sense now, too.
Hopefully that stuff is still in the game @EyeOfThundera822 wish you found that before the weekend so I could also check, oh well. Judging by what Capcom did to him already, I wouldn’t be surprised if those properties are all changed already =/
that makes sense. that move looks weird as fuck. long range jump punishment is pretty nasty. even more fullscreen pressure on top of v-trigger.
looks a little too slow to punish a jump on reaction.
Here’s my findings for today. I lost some footage showing that it ACTUALLY works due to an SD card error but you can watch this vid and get a rough idea of when to use it and when to just stick with traditional anti-airs. I honestly recommend baiting out empty jumps by keeping the distance of the opponents jump at such a range that they wont think to throw out an air normal on their way down, when its too late.