Nash Combo/Tech Thread

[Heavy_Mental]

Followup to my previous post about meaty HP Sonic Boom setups: After additional tests, I can confirm that an immediate HP Sonic Boom after LK Sonic Scythe will beat any armored reversal.

Also, I’ve been thinking of ways to replicate Nash’s 50/50 setup from Beta 4 and I think I’ve found something. For those of you who don’t know the setup, it was corner HK Sonic Scythe, V-Skill juggle xx f,VT, nj.MK. If you cancel into V-Trigger early, the nj.MK hits in front. If you cancel late, the nj.MK hits crossup.

The setup I discovered works the same way, but instead of doing a HK Sonic Scythe juggle (which sadly no longer exists), you do it after a forward throw in the corner. After a forward throw, Nash is at exactly at +8 which makes it perfect for setting up a meaty V-Skill (8f startup). Cancel into f.VT early and your nj.MK will hit from the front. Do it late and you cross up. One weird thing about this set up is that if your opponent does not block the meaty V-Skill, then the followups will hit in the opposite direction. More specifically, if your V-Skill hits and you late cancel your V-Trigger, your nj.MK will hit from the front. Cancel early you and you will hit cross up.

I tested this setup by setting Nash as the dummy (P2 side) and making him do the V-Skill cancel into V-Trigger (Note that if you test using this method, the crossup j.MK will not register as a crossup). Unfortunately, using this method there’s no way to make P1 side do a quickrise after forward throw so I had to go into V-Skill directly, but theoretically it should work fine. I tested the setup with Nash on P1 side and got the same 50/50. I haven’t done extensive testing. So far I’ve only tested on Chun, Karin, and Ryu. I’ll be posting more findings later tonight. Hopefully this setup works consistently on the entire cast. It would also be nice if everyone else pitches in and does some testing.

What I’m looking for besides the obvious “Does this setup work on X character” are the following:

1. Will X character’s V-Reversal hit Nash out of the V-Trigger cancel?
2. Can X character punish or mash out after the V-Trigger cancel?
3. Can X character dash out of the V-Trigger cancel?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Formatting

EDIT 2: New test results.

So this setup isn’t anywhere near as good as the Beta 4 setup. So far I’ve tested up to Karin and the results aren’t promising. It’s only a true 50/50 on Dhalsim. Here are the notes from my tests. Got lazy when I got to Fang and didn’t test all his escape and punish options.

[details=Spoiler]Fully works on: Dhalsim

Dhalsim
LATE CANCEL
[list]
[] Late b.MP will beat late VT cancel
[] St.LP, cr.MP, and b.HP will lose clean
[] V-Reversal can beat late VT cancel with the right timing (window is very small)
[] Slide escape attempts will get hit by nj.MK during recovery
[] Teleports cannot escape. Nash can punish upon landing.
[] CA will beat late VT cancel.
[/list]

EARLY CANCEL
[list]
[] V-Reversal will whiff
[] B.MP will get counter-hit
[] St.LP will trade
[] LK and MK slide will get hit by nj.MK during recovery but Dhalsim escapes the corner
[] HK Slide will get counter-hit and Dhalsim will still be stuck in the corner
[] Teleports cannot escape. Nash can punish upon landing
[*] CA will beat VT cancel
[/list]

Partly works on: Chun-Li, Cammy, Karin

Cammy
EARLY CANCEL
[list]
[] Early VT cancel can be blocked either way
[] B.MP trades with early VT cancel
[] Reversal LK/EX Cannon Spike beat early VT cancel
[] Reversal CA trades with early VT cancel
[*] V-Reversal escapes early VT cancel

LATE CANCEL
[] Late VT cancel hits crossup
[] EX Spiral Arrow escapes late VT cancel
[] V-Reversal can punish late VT cancel with the right timing
[] Delayed autocorrect LK and EX Cannon Spike beat late VT cancel
[] Reversal Cannon Spike whiff against late VT cancel
[] CA beats late VT cancel
[*] A late b.MP will beat late VT cancel
[/list]

Chun-Li
LATE CANCEL
[list]
[] Late VT cancel hits crossup
[] Late st.LK can beat late cancel, but requires precise timing
[] B.HK will lose to late cancel
[] Chun-LI can’t dash under early VT cancel
[] St.LK loses to early VT cancel
[] B.HK loses to early VT cancel
[/list]

EARLY CANCEL
[list]
[] Chun-LI can dash under late VT cancel and block nj.MK afterwards
[] EX SBK beats late and early cancel
[*] Early VT cancel can be blocked either way
[/list]

Karin
LATE CANCEL
[list]
[] Late cancel hits crossup
[] St.LP, st.HP, and cr.HP get stuffed
[] Reversal EX Command Dash escapes
[] Late EX Command Dash auto-corrects into the corner
[] EX Ressenha whiffs whether it’s done late or reversal
[] Reversal CA whiffs
[] Late CA doesn’t hit fast enough. Nash lands in time to block.
[] Immediate V-Reversal hits Nash out of V-Trigger, but whiffs if done late
[/list]

EARLY CANCEL
[list]
[] Early cancel can be blocked either way
[] Reversal EX Ressenha whiffs
[] Late, auto-correct EX Ressenha wins.
[] St.LP, st.HP, and cr.HP get stuffed
[] EX Command Dash gets stuffed
[] CA whiffs
[*] V-Reversal whiffs
[/list]

Doesn’t work on: Birdie, F.A.N.G

Birdie
LATE CANCEL
[list]
[] Birdie can block the late VT cancel either way
[] Birdie’s V-Reversal whiffs against late VT cancel
[] Birdie can AA cr.MP against late VT cancel
[] Reversal EX Bull Horn will beat late VT cancel
[/list]

EARLY CANCEL
[list]
[] The early VT cancel hits crossup if Birdie holds forward (i.e. blocks crossup)
[] Birdie can beat early VT cancel with a late V-Reversal
[] Birdie’s AA cr.MP will lose to nj.MK if Nash does early VT cancel
[] Reversal EX Bull Horn will beat early VT cancel
[/list]

F.AN.G
[list]
[] F.A.N.G. can block the late VT cancel either way
[] The early VT cancel hits crossup if F.A.N.G. holds forward (i.e. blocks crossup)
[/list][/details]

[Zachara]

So I finally managed to catalogue all the frame traps/meaty set ups that I should require and I ran in to 2 things which ruined me -
1 - No Quick Rise. My mind goes blank when people don’t quick rise for some reason. I know there are follow ups but I get stuck thinking “Why didn’t you quick rise? What’s wrong with you?”.
2 - Mash shoryu. This one should be expected and is easily countered (Blocking is OP?) but I am instantly on tilt when I get hit with some random shoryu on wake up. I had a couple of matches against someone the other day who was punished 4 times in a row for wake up shoryu so I was convinced they wouldn’t do it again. Silly me right?

The worst part is that I’m considering picking up Ken just so I can be like “Who’s being random now? Oh what’s that, you pressed a button? SHORYUKEN!!!”.
Ahem.

Sorry, it’s been a rough week. Getting to the point - I find myself terrified to actually try and pressure and I’m playing so lame and scared that it’s painful to watch.

What I’m looking for besides the obvious “Does this setup work on X character” are the following:

1. Will X character’s V-Reversal hit Nash out of the V-Trigger cancel?
2. Can X character punish or mash out after the V-Trigger cancel?
3. Can X character dash out of the V-Trigger cancel?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

I’m busy this weekend but I’ll be happy to help out when I get the chance.

[Heavy_Mental]

Appreciate it. I’ll be working through the characters in alphabetical order, starting with Birdie. If someone else could start from Zangief, that would be good.

[GroundedSF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijz5WFJ3EXE

[CriminalUpper]

The two recent setups posted by @otakugamer223 and @Heavy_Mental helped me win a tournament today.

The EX TA oki and the meaty Boom stuff is gold, good shit guys!

[Spidercarnage]

Hi guys, great stuff in this thread I figured I would add a little. I was watching this week’s battle circuit and noticed that Dieminion was doing a similar combo to this:

J.HP, S.HP xx LP.SB, F.VT, NJ.HP, C.HP, S.MP xx HK.SS
Damage: 365
Stun: 630

So I got to thinking how much do EX boom and EX Scythe add to the combo and is it worth spending the bar? I am not sure about you guys but I find meter to be pretty important for Nash. I need meter for anti airs because using his normlas is pretty risky unless you are 100% sure or you have really good spacing. So here are the numbers for the above combo with some variations:

Same combo with 2 hits of EX boom:
Damage: 380 (+15)
Stun: 640 (+10)
EX meter used: 1 bar

Same combo with normal boom but ex scythe:
Damage: 374 (+9)
Stun: 630 (+0)
EX meter used: 1 bar

Same combo with both ex boom (2 hits) and ex scythe:
Damage: 386 (+21)
Stun: 640 (+10)
EX meter used: 2 bars.

The (+) numbers are the extra damage you deal for spending the meter.
So in my amateur opinion unless you are 100% sure the extra 10 stun is going dizzy or the extra 21 damage is going to kill save the meter.

All combos where done on a dummy Ken with full health and stun bar empty.

Thoughts?

[LiangHuBBB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLSdPYX-ZgM

[str_e_ak]

snip

Good stuff as always, bro. :tup:

By any chance, is there a compiled list of Nash’s frame advantages on his knockdowns? I have some ideas that I’ve wanted to test.

[GroundedSF]

On another note, I was watching Infiltration’s match with Saulabis, a Rashid player, and noticed how he used HP Sonic Boom for meaty setups in the corner. Did some testing and found that after corner LK Sonic Scythe, an immediate HP Sonic Boom will be +3/+8 after quickrise, +8/+13 after backroll. After corner HK Sonic Scythe, you can whiff an immediate st.LP and do a meaty HP Sonic Boom that is +5/+10 on quickrise and +10/+15 on backroll. Unfortunately there’s too much pushback to land cr.HP->st.MP xx HK Sonic Scythe but you can do cr.MP->st.MP xx HK Sonic Scythe instead.

My favorite thing about the HK Sonic Scythe setup is that the HP Sonic Boom will come out late enough to counter-hit opponents waking up with 3f normals (it stuff Chun-Li’s cr.LP) but early enough to beat armored moves like Laura’s EX Bolt Charge, Mika’s EX Shooting Peach, and Zangief’s EX Siberian Express that don’t have armor on startup. It’s also safe against V-Reversals (tested it against Chun’s, which comes out in 10f), though I’m not sure if it’s possible to punish on reaction with a throw. Couldn’t test this against a dummy because the “Guard Recovery” function is bugged for me and the dummy won’t perform V-Reversals.

EDIT: I’ll test LK Sonic Scythe tomorrow or the day after to see if it’s as safe as the HK Sonic Scythe setup is. Also going to see if I can get a safejump setup if the opponent does not wake up at all.

I was trying some of this stuff out myself. It seems like you can do the same thing after EX TA in the corner, certainly it seemed to be working when I tested vs Laura wakeup EX elbow. With a very small step forward you can connect cr.hp st.mp into whatever - maybe another EX TA for another rep?

[Spidercarnage]

Unless I’m timing the jump normal wrong, it’s possible to block both the j.HK and j.MK from the front. Tested it by setting Nash as the dummy.

On another note, I was watching Infiltration’s match with Saulabis, a Rashid player, and noticed how he used HP Sonic Boom for meaty setups in the corner. Did some testing and found that after corner LK Sonic Scythe, an immediate HP Sonic Boom will be +3/+8 after quickrise, +8/+13 after backroll. After corner HK Sonic Scythe, you can whiff an immediate st.LP and do a meaty HP Sonic Boom that is +5/+10 on quickrise and +10/+15 on backroll. Unfortunately there’s too much pushback to land cr.HP->st.MP xx HK Sonic Scythe but you can do cr.MP->st.MP xx HK Sonic Scythe instead.

My favorite thing about the HK Sonic Scythe setup is that the HP Sonic Boom will come out late enough to counter-hit opponents waking up with 3f normals (it stuff Chun-Li’s cr.LP) but early enough to beat armored moves like Laura’s EX Bolt Charge, Mika’s EX Shooting Peach, and Zangief’s EX Siberian Express that don’t have armor on startup. It’s also safe against V-Reversals (tested it against Chun’s, which comes out in 10f), though I’m not sure if it’s possible to punish on reaction with a throw. Couldn’t test this against a dummy because the “Guard Recovery” function is bugged for me and the dummy won’t perform V-Reversals.

EDIT: I’ll test LK Sonic Scythe tomorrow or the day after to see if it’s as safe as the HK Sonic Scythe setup is. Also going to see if I can get a safejump setup if the opponent does not wake up at all.

I did some tests last night after a HK SS on Ken setting him to wake up with a c.jab or throw. On counter hit you can go directly into a s.HP xx HK SS again which puts you into the same situation. Only issue is that ken’s reversal DP beats the setup because he involves though the boom. But you can always bait that by doing the s.lp and then nothing.

[Heavy_Mental]

ak;10664861"]
Good stuff as always, bro. :tup:

By any chance, is there a compiled list of Nash’s frame advantages on his knockdowns? I have some ideas that I’ve wanted to test.

Thanks. My internet at university is Dan-tier so labwork is pretty much the only thing I can do.

Gilley’s frame data spreadsheethas that info. Think it’s accurate for the most part. I also have data from my own tests. Values with a question mark indicates that I’m not 100% sure of the exact frame advantage.

[details=Spoiler]
[list=1]
[] Forward Throw: +8
[] Back Throw: +10
[] Normal Tragedy Assault: +8
[] LK Sonic Scythe, dash forward: At least +9
[] Sweep, dash forward: +5
[] Wind Shear, forward dash: +6 (?)
[] V-Trigger, j.HK, LK Sonic Scythe juggle: at least +6 (?)
[] V-Trigger, j.HK, EX Sonic Scythe juggle: at least +20 (?)
[] MK Sonic Scythe, dash forward: at least +15
[] Corner HK Sonic Scythe, whiff LK Sonic Scythe: at least +3 (?)
[] HK Sonic Scythe, double dash: +5 (?)
[] EX Sonic Scythe, dash forward: +12 (?)
[] Judgement Saber, dash forward: +7
[] Corner EX Tragedy Assault, st.HK side switch: +9 (?)
[*] EX Tragedy Assault, double forward dash: +3
[/list][/details]

I was trying some of this stuff out myself. It seems like you can do the same thing after EX TA in the corner, certainly it seemed to be working when I tested vs Laura wakeup EX elbow. With a very small step forward you can connect cr.hp st.mp into whatever - maybe another EX TA for another rep?

It’s definitely possible given the absurd frame advantage after EX TA you can dash twice and still be at +3). Question is though, do you have a specific frame-kill to time the meaty HP Sonic Boom or are you timing it manually? You would need a consistent and easy setup to justify spending meter on EX TA. Also, I’m not sure if the bar for EX Ta is worth it, unless you can do the meaty HP Sonic Boom without Nash being in the corner himself. Otherwise, HK Sonic Scythe gives you the same meaty setup with the extra benefit of more damage and no meter expenditure.

I did some tests last night after a HK SS on Ken setting him to wake up with a c.jab or throw. On counter hit you can go directly into a s.HP xx HK SS again which puts you into the same situation. Only issue is that ken’s reversal DP beats the setup because he involves though the boom. But you can always bait that by doing the s.lp and then nothing.

You can go into st.HP even without a counter-hit. Like I said, meaty HP SB after HK SS leaves Nash at +10 on hit after quickrise and +15 after back roll. Should have mentioned that invincible reversals beat this setup though, even if it seemed obvious at the time. I tested it by choosing Nash as my dummy and making him perform CA (10f startup) on wakeup, and I got hit. If that invincible reversal can hit me, then any can.

[Spidercarnage]

You are right, I shouldn’t have said on counter hit. It’s still a very good setup that can loop back into it’s self and really confuse the opponent.

[GroundedSF]

It’s definitely possible given the absurd frame advantage after EX TA you can dash twice and still be at +3). Question is though, do you have a specific frame-kill to time the meaty HP Sonic Boom or are you timing it manually? You would need a consistent and easy setup to justify spending meter on EX TA. Also, I’m not sure if the bar for EX Ta is worth it, unless you can do the meaty HP Sonic Boom without Nash being in the corner himself. Otherwise, HK Sonic Scythe gives you the same meaty setup with the extra benefit of more damage and no meter expenditure.

Timing it manually, although it didn’t seem particularly difficult. Presumably the slow speed of HP boom gives you a larger window for them to wake up into it? Obviously it’s less damage/requires meter, but I definitely think it’s worth it if you’re low on health. You also don’t need to worry about doing different things depending on quickrise/backroll since EX TA can’t be backrolled. There’s also the fact that you can end up in situations where you can only extend a combo with LK SS/EX TA and HK SS is not an option. I also think it’s beneficial to show your opponent something different now and again instead of presenting them with the same knockdown situation from HK SS over and over.

[Heavy_Mental]

Good point about using EX TA as a combo ender. I disagree with the one about doing different things depending on the opponent’s wakeup though. It doesn’t matter at all if your opponent does a back roll because the meaty SB is active enough and timed to hit anyways. If your opponent does a back roll, they just put themselves at even greater frame disadvantage. I see your point on showing something different, though really you’re just going into the same KD situation anyway (meaty boom). The real mixup is whether you choose to go for a throw, frame trap, or bait after they block the meaty boom. It doesn’t really matter if you do a different combo because it all leads to the same situation and the same guessing game.

[GroundedSF]

Good point about using EX TA as a combo ender. I disagree with the one about doing different things depending on the opponent’s wakeup though. It doesn’t matter at all if your opponent does a back roll because the meaty SB is active enough and timed to hit anyways. If your opponent does a back roll, they just put themselves at even greater frame disadvantage. I see your point on showing something different, though really you’re just going into the same KD situation anyway (meaty boom). The real mixup is whether you choose to go for a throw, frame trap, or bait after they block the meaty boom. It doesn’t really matter if you do a different combo because it all leads to the same situation and the same guessing game.

The frame disadvantage your opponent is at will dictate the timing of button presses for frame trap/true string. If they can only quickrise you can guarantee frame trap, whereas if they backroll into the boom you’ll have to delay your button press if you want a trap.

In terms of showing something different, I’m sure this will become less important as the game progresses, but at the moment you can pretty much guarantee that your opponent doesn’t know all your options/timings on each KD. Maybe it’s just me, but at this early stage in the game I also really appreciate the time EX TA gives me to decide what to do next or whether or not to spend V-Trigger etc.

[RandomBS]

many of you probably already know, but after LK scythe, dash foward, f+hk is an auto meaty vs both quiick and backrise. If they quick rise and are mashing jab you can also combo on hit after with cr.lp x scythe

and also vs dhalsim you can actually OS his teleport by inputting MK scythe late in the f+hk animation, it wont come out on block due to hitstop. You can also OS with EX moonsault but if he quickrises it will only chase down not hit, if he backrise teleports it will actually hit him for a full combo.

edit : after testing you can just use MK moonsault, it works in the same exact way, plus it actually leaves you more positive than ex

edit 2 : this also works after mk and ex scythe, both being a meaty on quick and backrise

the main disadvantage of this is if they block on wakeup, you are negative. so use it as a read on wakeup jab/teleport happy sim players

[otter]

[quote=“str[e]
ak;10646165”]Nothing really special here, but I like that this frame trap is safe-ish:

[/quote]

I did this in the second beta but I thought they reduced the distance of the spin animation so this was no longer possible? I guess I overlooked it.

[str_e_ak]

Did a quick scan of our threads to check for safe jumps, and didn’t find anything. So, I worked on this today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A74qfhdkLxg

I’ve included some of the YouTube description here:

The neutral jump attack will hit meaty on ALL characters in the game, stopping attacks that do not have armor on frame 1 and Nash’s V-Trigger. Also, Nash will be able to block any 4-frame (or, slower) invincible attack. However, watch out for these characters and their respective attacks:

• Ryu (EX Shoryuken)
• Cammy (EX Cannon Spike)
• Necalli (EX Raging Light)
• Laura, R. Mika, Zangief (Critical Arts)

Finally, I’ve included some proofs of concept for option selects built into this safe jump. I’m honestly not sure if the OS EX Moonsault Slash will be able to catch Dhalsim during his recovery frames.

[Zachara]

@Heavy_Mental - Had a busy weekend so haven’t had a chance to test out the updated V-Trigger setup. Hopefully will be able to mess around with it over the next couple of days. RL currently taking it’s toll. You seemed not as happy with it as in beta 4, do you think it’s going to be viable? Obviously testing still needs to be done but I’m just wondering at your thoughts on it atm.
(EDIT - Looking through the knockdown advantages you posted I think [Wind Shear, forward dash: +6 (?)] is +8. f.Dash = 17 and the KDAdvantage = 25. Cannot test right now but that’s what my math says )

@str[e]ak - Nice stuff. I made some notes regarding safe jumps but haven’t taken them further than pen+paper. Again with the RL crap.

[Heavy_Mental]

I’m not optimistic. The setup is going to be character-specific at best, unless I can figure out a way to make the early f.VT cancel into nj.MK hit from the front (i.e. make it so that it can only be blocked from one direction and not two). The setup won’t be any good once people realize blocking crossup will defend against both cancel timings. I’ll try my best to make it work.