My analog A/V setup - 240p goodness

@ R-CADE Gaming
I figured out why your colors appear washed out in the photos of your screen.

It as to do with your Digital Camera’s White Balance. I am assuming you have incandescent lighting or natural sunlight in the house which tends to give a warmer color, Florescent Lighting is colder giving it a washed out or bluer color. If your Camera WB is set to auto it will take the majority ambient light and not the light of your target or subject.

Setting your white balance on your camera to Florescent Lighting could take care of the wash out. Each screen is different, especially with CRT screens so try different settings on the white balance. Worst case scenario you have to adjust the colors post production.

Since your screen is a Progressive Scan screen, you do not have the issue with banding a interlace screen would have. An Interlaced screen would need a shutter speed of 1/25 second or slower.
Photographing a Progressive screens will need a shutter speed of 1/125 or Faster.

The two biggest hints I get from professional Photography articles I read on photographing a TV screen is white balance and shutter speed.

You say it’s easy but it’s kinda giving me a headache. Lemme get you the full story. There’s some repetition but bear with me, just made a big investment really wanna squeeze the most out of everything.

I ask again because I have a few different types of signals coming into this one switch, old consoles coming in with RGB SCART (that I guess would be changed to VGA+stereo audio), The PS2 going through a bunch of bullshit and this modded VGA box for the Dreamcast (that I’ve been told here I don’t need to mod, confusing me further) and it seems by your explanation having these 3 different kinds of things going into one switch with one output might be a problem not to mention the final cable of all this has to be this tiny little mini din thing for the Framemeister.

@Darksakul

Thanks for the tips. I’ll look for a white-balance setting on my camera next time. I had considered touching them up in photoshop, but it seemed like it would kind of negate the point of an honest reference shot… and also that was a good way to rationalize it since I didn’t feel like going through the effort anyhow.

The picture of the test pattern actually is in interlaced - 480i from the PS3. Of course, you can’t see any color difference because it’s black and white.

@Smashbro29

I have a solution in mind, but have some questions first:

  1. Do you have a soldering iron and the ability to make custom cables? I can give you links to the parts you’d need from Digikey.
  2. What monitor/TV are you using?
  3. What are the “older consoles?”
  4. Your latest post is kind of a big thread derail, can you move that to another thread and direct me to that?

If you make up some custom cabling, you will not need a Sync Strike, an Extron Device (assuming you mean an RGB interface), or a DC VGA box, and you can run everything through your VGA switch box.

For starters, here’s the pinout for the XRGB-mini’s mini-din 8 input:

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:micomsoft_xrgb-mini_framemeister

I’m sorry I was just so excited!

No worries. Just thought we could help you in a dedicated thread.

Hey, I meant to ask this before, what’s your take on running a sync separator fulltime? I’m planning to run most everything to my PVM in RGB, and my PVM needs stripped sync. I plan to also run a RGB splitter and use a RGB capture card for streaming/recording, which I believe also needs stripped sync. I have a few RGB cables wired for raw sync, for consoles that output raw sync, so my question is, is there any noticeable difference in running a raw csync signal through the stripper?

Also, how does the Emotia force 240p, does it do something like genlock the sync signal and suppress the field pulse? (edit: samples and then outputs in 240p, but the “RGB Interface” behaves like I want, see here if anyone cares http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html )

Nope, no noticeable difference running raw sync through an LM1881 or EL4583. At least on my setup. I think some processors/displays will actually work better this way.

Thanks. It would simplify my setup to leave a sync stripper in-line full time, good to hear it wouldn’t really affect anything if used unnecessarily.

Similarly, you can put a single set of 220uf caps on the RGB lines after the switching, instead of having a set in each console’s cable. Some systems don’t need them, but of all the ones I’m using I haven’t found one that has a problem with it (although the Super Emotia does).

You have good taste.

Since Someone else decided to Necro this thread I don’t feel guilty now posting here.

I going to follow R-CADE Gaming’s example and get me a nice VGA switch box and some DB15HD male connectors to replace the 21 Pin Scart connectors.
Nothing very few rare devices in the US ever uses Scart (or EIA in the US) I may as well clip off the scart connectors.

Trying to source a decent Scart switch box in the US is like convincing people in the Killer Instinct 2013 thread the Xbone is a crap console.

Update: I think I found someone who could source me the good Hama Scart switch, I see how this pans out.

I always get confused reading the 1st post but how much difference in quality is it compared to hooking this up to an arcade cab via scart? I have astro city that currently has jamma, snes, & saturn.

Some screen shots.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/Screen%20Cap/2013-03-20225229_zpsd3c25eab.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/Screen%20Cap/2013-03-20225211_zps88bfec9b.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/Screen%20Cap/2013-03-19010159_zps43bb7fe0.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/2013-03-19005208_zpsa533f768.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/2013-03-19005912_zps1cd12db9.jpg

Is that a Net City Cab rigged to Consoles? Freaking Rad dude.
A good Arcade monitor or even a Sony PVM monitor does great with Scart.
Other people keep in mind these professional broadcast industry monitors in the US uses BNC connectors for separate R, G, B and sync input, so you need a Scart to BNC adapter or modify an existing cart cable.

As it was already discussed, you want to stick closes to the source format as possible, and you want to start with the purest highest quality image as possible. Not everyone have acess or means to get a boardcast industry quality monitor oe a arcade monitor.
R-CADE Gaming converted his RGB signal to component via an industry grade converter. My route was convert my RGB image to VGA with a cheap Chinese made upscaler and sync stripper.

I’m all new to this modding cables dealio, if you write a nice tutorial I’d be all over that. No pressure, just saying!

Yup, SCART connectors are also unnecessarily bulky, and supposedly they wear out and become unreliable easily. I don’t know what’s so bad about the new DRM-box though, I can’t wait for it to come out so I can start collecting discounted 360 games.

That looks pretty darn good. It’s too close to tell from pictures. We’re both using equivalent signals in native res, just displaying them through slightly different tubes. Looks like that has a traditional shadow mask from the closeup, instead of an aperture grille like mine, and of course there’s the whole curved vs. flat tube thing. We also probably have slightly different dot pitch and scanline thickness if you compared them in real life. I couldn’t say either is better, all of these things are a matter of preference.

Very nice cabs btw.

Hope The Purge happens so I can rob OP

A little late to the party, but I’d like to point out that you will find very little documentation on 240p, because analog 240p isn’t actually a standard - it’s more of a happy accident caused by the way CRTs deal with non-standard input.

The NTSC standard defines an interlaced video signal wherein each field consists of 262.5 scanlines (including vertical blanking), with every other field starting with a half scanline (rather than a full one) which provides the required vertical offset to interlace alternate fields.

Standard-definition consoles don’t do any of that - they make certain adjustments to make video signal generation simpler and thus cheaper to implement (often with further adjustments in the interest of visual quality). In particular, each frame is only 262 scanlines (including vertical blanking), and they don’t bother with the half scanlines either. The lack of half scanlines means that there is no vertical offset every other field, resulting in progressive scan. The reduced scanline count means that they don’t actually display images at 60 Hz or 59.94 Hz, but in fact slightly over 60 Hz.

Then there’s the issue of vertical edge artifacts, which are caused by the interaction between the color data signal and the duration of scanlines and frames/fields. Color data is carried on a signal called the color subcarrier (I’ll call it Chroma for convenience), which runs at 3.579545 MHz - the amplitude of this signal represents the color’s saturation, and the phase shift represents the hue. According to the NTSC standard, one scanline is exactly 227.5 Chroma cycles in length, and therefore each field is 59718.75 Chroma cycles in length. Because neither of these values are integers, vertical edges between different hues aren’t perfect. The non-integral scanline/Chroma ratio means that the edge falls on a different part of a Chroma cycle from scanline to scanline, causing a pattern of hue artifacts. The non-integral field/Chroma ratio means that these artifacts appear to move up or down over time. Since consoles use non-standard timing, however, they have different vertical edge artifacts than standard 480i signals.

On the NES and SNES, for example, on scanline is actually 227.33 subcarrier cycles, and one frame (262 scanlines) is therefore 59561.33 subcarrier cycles. As a further complication, every other frame, one scanline of vertical blanking is shortened to 226.67 cycles - thus odd frames are 59561.33 cycles, even frames are 59560.67, and they average out to 59561 cycles per frame. Because of this, they don’t actually exhibit dot crawl per se - the visual artifacts around vertical edges appear to oscillate instead of moving up or down - and their video output actually runs at 60.10 FPS. The minor differences in frame timing parameters is one of the major reasons for the wide difference in composite video quality between different consoles (and on some consoles, like the TG-16, that allow software to adjust these parameters, the difference from one game to another).

You may also have noticed that the color subcarrier frequency (~227.5 cycles per scanline) is relatively low compared to the number of pixels drawn on a scan line (generally 256 to 512). In fact, of the NES (and other consoles with a 256-pixel horizontal resolution) each pixel is only 2/3 of a subcarrier cycle, on the Genesis (running in its standard 320x240) each pixel is only 8/15 of a cycle, and in the SNES and TG-16 hi-res modes (512 pixels horizontal) there are three pixels in each subcarrier cycle. This is why, when using composite out or RF out on these consoles, pixels tend to bleed into their horizontal neighbors, and also why the Genesis in particular tends to look like ass over composite/RF connectors.

RGB connectors, of course, don’t have these problems, because they don’t have to deal with cramming three analog signals into one, which is why RGB monitors were the standard in arcades and why consoles look best with RGB output - a notable exception being the NES. The NES video chip generates a composite video signal with no RGB at any step along the way - and actually generates some colors that are outside the RGB color space - and several developers, notably Sunsoft, got quite adept at making art tailored to the graphical quirks of the NES.

All of this, of course, is made possible by the fact that the NTSC standard requires that TV receivers accept signals that deviate by as much as 1% from the specified values. (Which was a very strict tolerance in those pre-solid-state days, but 2 decades later was oh-so-exploitable.)

Okay I did some research the official part number to Sony’s Euro Scart cable for the PlayStation is SCPH-10142
I yet to find the part number to the official SNES Euro scart cable.

Didn’t see this earlier. Yes, as Grygor points out, you won’t find a lot of reference material which specifically refers to “240p” because it’s not a standard. However, that book goes over a lot of what is necessary to understood the nuts and bolts of what is going on behind any kind of analog video. 240p doesn’t work any different than other resolutions, it just uses different timing values.

(That being said, if any has any solid documentation specifically covering arcade/console video to share, please do so).

Grygor, I referred your post to a friend of mine who is FCC-licensed and was head engineer at several TV stations. Some of his comments were “Grygor knows his shit… this guy must have good professional video or broadcasting experience.”

Anyhow, I’m with you for the most part, but only thing I’m not sure of is your comment on the NES:

I’m aware that it generates composite video directly, instead of encoding from RGB like most consoles, but if it generates colors outside of the legal RGB colorspace, won’t these colors be discarded by the TV during during NTSC decoding?

Were you referring to other quirks that developers took advantage of, or are they intending for this behavior?

Is this the reason that RGB modding with a Playchoice 10 PPU results in an incorrect color palette? I thought it was just a difference in how the color palletes were defined in code.

Speaking of RGB-modding, just did the N64. I hadn’t planned on playing it, but I picked up some cheap games at the thrift store. See the end of my third post in this thread (first page) for a picture.