R-Cade, I apologize it looks like I’m wrong on this one. I was under the impression that CRT is ALWAYS interlaced if it was a consumer display, progressive if it’s a studio monitor or a PC monitor. Unfortunately it looks like there isn’t a lot of information to find about it and everything I google on the subject is mainly about the actual video modes, not the displays, but if what I gather is correct, you’re saying that as long as a signal meets a specific khz supported by the display, then it can display it? So, CRT PC monitors basically have the capability to display much higher khz rates which allows them to always show progressive content? Am I getting this right? So, for obvious reasons, back in the early 80’s they at some point made it standard to output progressive video and PC monitors had to then be capable of displaying much more bandwidth to allow higher khz/hz signals to pass through? And THAT would be why everything on PC is progressive, not because the displays are actually physically different?<br><br>Also, what your friend Cliff wrote is a little confusing. What does he mean by <strong>“They are identical in every way, except that the second field of 480i is delayed by 1/2 horizontal line!”</strong> Can this be elaborated upon, because I’m not finding anything explaining it, pretty much every explanation of interlaced video is field 1 is even horizontal lines and field 2 is odd horizontal lines, no mention of any delayed lines. What does that have to do with delaying a 1/2 horizontal line and how does that work? For example, how is it possible to offset the field by <strong>half</strong> a line when the signals are drawn via lines?<br><br><strong>In ALL 2:1 interlaced video signals, the second field is offset by 1/2 a horizontal line. You can see this by rolling the top of the picture down with the vertical hold control, or, if you set is lacking one of those, use the vertical height control so you can see the vertical blanking intverval. Halfway across the top of the screen at the beginning of active picture scanning you will find the first line of the beginning of field two, which occurs exactly half way across, right in the middle of the screen.</strong><br><br>I have these controls on my set but never saw this happen. Do I have to run in a much lower resolution, such as 480i to see it?<br><br>
If I could get a better understanding of the blanking interval, I would appreciate it. Maybe a picture would help so I know what to look for. I’d like to set my TV to 480p and 720p modes to see if it’s there and if any video processing is going on. I’d like to note that I had tested out 720p earlier to see what interlace mode it was converting to but it wasn’t reporting it anymore, it was only reporting 720p. There was a little flicker, but very minor, so I’m not sure if I changed something a few years ago that stopped it from reporting in service mode or if I had turned off some of the digital processing that may have actually stopped it from converting 720p to some interlaced format of some sort. The reason being is because I wanted to see which interlace mode it was going into. Anyway, please thank Cliff for me, it gives me something new to look for and will help in disabling as much video processing as possible from my set.<br><br>"<strong>Progressive video has only one frame, not two."</strong> - I never made a claim otherwise. Just wanted to clear that up. Maybe it was a misunderstanding because I exampled 2 frames in P mode in the diagram when I was hoping that it would be obvious frame 4, 5 all the way to 60 per second would have followed the same. No big deal.<br><br>Last, but certainly not least 
if the display can actually show progressive content but just needs the bandwidth, well, since this IS tech talk, is there a way to increase the khz/hz range to accept progressive signals?<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/18210/R-CADE%20Gaming">R-CADE Gaming</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>my transcoder halfway down the first post. I modded it with that large knob on the front to allow me to adjust the horizontal position shift on the fly. It’s just a 26-turn pot controlling the horizontal sync width.<br></div>
</blockquote>Ah, didn’t see that the first time through. I’d be curious to know how you wired this up. I’m using one of the ever-popular SCART->Component transcoders that are all over eBay (<a href=“http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/221156873851”>example</a>). I’ve already tapped into the SCART pins to add a 3.5mm audio output, and I’m guessing there may be a way to wire in an adjustment knob much like the one on your setup. Any thoughts?
This back and forth arguing was informative, thanks!
<blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>R-Cade, I apologize it looks like I’m wrong on this one. I was under the impression that CRT is ALWAYS interlaced if it was a consumer display, progressive if it’s a studio monitor or a PC monitor.<br></div>
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No, but I understand that this is a common misconception. I just don’t want it to be spread around any further. The thing is that, when correctly setup, a 15kHz CRT TV (“standard definition tube TV”) is capable of displaying 15kHz progressive signals at a fairly high quality. This means resolutions around 240p from all the classic consoles, as well as the native resolution of classic 15kHz arcade games (90% of the games in MAME, and real pcb’s as well). In fact, a 15kHz CRT TV is just as capable as a 15kHz (CGA) CRT arcade monitor. They are pretty much the same thing. A TV just has a few extra things on the chassis, like an RF tuner, NTSC decoder, audio circuitry, etc.</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>You just need a TV that is in fact 15kHz (just make sure it does NOT support 480p or more), and preferably with component or RGB SCART inputs. If using component, you’ll need a transcoder like mine.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>It’s just frustrating when people are missing out on an excellent display option because they have been misinformed. For example, a lot of people think they need to spend hundreds on a 15kHz arcade monitor, because they don’t understand that a cheap TV can rival it for image quality IF properly set up. Nothing wrong with modern flat-screen displays either (as long as you have a low-lag model), but an expensive scaler/processor like an X-RGB Mini is needed to display low resolutions in decent quality.</div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>if what I gather is correct, you’re saying that as long as a signal meets a specific khz supported by the display, then it can display it? So, CRT PC monitors basically have the capability to display much higher khz rates which allows them to always show progressive content?</div>
</blockquote><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: small;”>Yes. A “standard definition,” CRT TV, or any 15kHz CRT such as a 15kHz arcade monitor, display anything are reasonably close to a 15,750Hz horizontal scan rate. The horizontal scan rate just means how many times the electron beam scans across the screen per second. 1Hz = 1 time per second, and 15,750Hz = 15,750 times per second. So in “15kHz,” the CRT has to draw about 15,000 lines per second, including the blank front and back porch lines where the sync signals are located (also called the blanking interval) in addition to the active picture lines. You can think of it as a measure of how fast the electron beam has to travel to get things done in time. It’s determined by how many lines it has to draw per field, and how many fields it has to draw per second. Of course, something pretty close to 60Hz vertical refresh is usually used, meaning 60 fields per second (60 frames in progressive, but only 30 frames in interlaced since 2 fields = 1 frame, so you might see it referred to as 30Hz sometimes). You generally won’t see a deviation too far from maybe 58-61Hz unless you’re using a PC, certain arcade games, or something from a PAL territory.</span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: 10pt;”><br></span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: 10pt;”>Anyhow, yes a 15kHz CRT TV can display all kinds of resolutions around 15kHz. Most old consoles don’t actually put out exactly 320x240p. For example, the NTSC Genesis ran at 320x224p, while the NTSC Super Nintendo usually ran 256x224p. This may result in a little bit under 15,750Hz because fewer lines have to be drawn in the same period of time, but it is well within the capable range of the TV.</span><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>There are a few tricks you can use to bring the scan rate back up without scanning more active lines per field, like scanning more blank lines in the front and back porch or increasing the vertical scan rate; and you would do just the opposite to bring down the scan rate. Classic arcade games used all kinds of different resolutions. NEO GEO ran in 320x224p, CPS-II ran in 384x224p, R-Type ran in 384x256p, and there are dozens of others.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>The wide variation in horizontal resolution doesn’t affect the horizontal scan rate, as the electron beam doesn’t have to move any faster, it just differentiates more pixels in the same space as it moves across. It’s only the vertical resolution that makes the difference, requiring more active lines to be drawn per field. Notice that 640x480i requires each field to be 640x240 active pixels. 640x240p isn’t a problem either.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>In contrast to all the variations with retro console and arcade games, 480i is usually dead on 15,734.26 Hz horizontal, 59.94Hz vertical, as this has been the NTSC standard since 1950.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>-</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>You can input all kinds of resolutions with different scan rates into most “standard definition” TV’s and they will attempt to display it. They don’t discriminate between different scan rates/resolutions or try to do anything differently with them because they usually don’t have any ability to distinguish these differences, as there’s no need. They just attempt to display the signal as it was received. You can input 480p, and it will try to display it. 480p requires a scan rate of 31kHz, so it won’t be able to scan fast enough to display it correctly, but it will try. Since it’s scanning too slow to display each line as fast as it is received, the picture will roll from being out of sync vertically and kind of bend diagonally from being out of sync vertically. You also might get color loss to varying degrees as sync signals start ending up where color lines should be and vice versa. Basically, you’ll get a bunch of garbage on screen.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>-</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>A 15kHz arcade monitor will work basically the same as a 15kHz TV, a 24kHz arcade will only be compatible with resolutions around 24kHz (like 512x384p), and a 31kHz monitor will only be compatible with resolutions around 31kHz (like 480p). A tri-sync arcade monitor is the most flexible as it works with anything around any of those three ranges.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Modern PC CRT monitors are also very flexible and tend to work with a wide range of scan rates, although the minimum is almost always 31kHz, meaning a minimum resolution of 480p. I had a nice Dell CRT that worked with all kinds of resolutions from 480p to 1080p to 1600x1200p, meaning it could handle 31-75kHz.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>The thing about PC monitors though is that they’re much more likely to have digital protection which only allows them to work with certain standard resolutions. Theoretically they should work with any scan rate within a certain range just like any other CRT, but some will detect what resolution is being input and will not attempt to display if it’s not on a predefined list of accepted resolutions. Some monitors are more picky than others.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde" style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>Moonchilde</a><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”> said:</span><br></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>So, for obvious reasons, back in the early 80’s they at some point made it standard to output progressive video and PC monitors had to then be capable of displaying much more bandwidth to allow higher khz/hz signals to pass through? And THAT would be why everything on PC is progressive, not because the displays are actually physically different?<br></div></blockquote><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Everything above comes from first-hand experience of using and working on this stuff, but I didn’t have a PC before the mid-nineties, and I’m no expert on anything about PC’s before then. My guess would be that interlaced wasn’t used because of the flickering you can get with static images, especially straight lines and text. I do know that at some point CGA and EGA (15kHz and 24kHz) monitors were common. They probably just used low-res progressive, and had a sharper dot pitch than a TV like all PC monitors. Later, VGA (31kHz) monitors came out, and since then modern PC monitors rarely supported anything below 31kHz. 640x480p was the minimum when I started using them.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><div class=“QuoteAuthor” style=“font-weight: normal;”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText” style=“font-weight: normal;”>Also, what your friend Cliff wrote is a little confusing. What does he mean by <strong>“They are identical in every way, except that the second field of 480i is delayed by 1/2 horizontal line!”</strong></div>
</blockquote><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>A CRT physically draws from left to right and top to bottom. The horizontal sync pulse causes the electron beam to return to the left of the screen after the end of a line, and the vertical sync pulse causes the electron beam to return to the top of the screen after the end of a field. If the vertical sync pulse is delayed in relation to the color signal, the electron beam’s return to the top of the screen will be delayed, and it will not have traveled down as far when the color signal begins. The causes the color signal to be drawn higher up on the screen.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>In 240p, each field is a new frame which is drawn exactly over top of the last one. If we want to change this to 480i, we must move one of the fields up or down a little so its lines are drawn in between the lines of the previous field rather than over top of them. Each horizontal line is separated by a certain vertical distance. If the vertical sync pulse is delayed for the time period of one half a horizontal line, the following field will appear shifted up the one half the vertical distance between lines, placing the lines in this field halfway in between those of the previous field.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>In NTSC-standard 480i, each field is 262.5 lines (240 active lines, plus several blank lines of front and back porch above and below, where sync pulses take place). Field one ends halfway through a line, and field two begins halfway through a line, causing the vertical offset of the two frames. Technically, you could say that the “even” lines are actually scanned in field one, and the “odd” lines in field two.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote”><div class=“QuoteAuthor” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><strong>In ALL 2:1 interlaced video signals, the second field is offset by 1/2 a horizontal line. You can see this by rolling the top of the picture down with the vertical hold control, or, if you set is lacking one of those, use the vertical height control so you can see the vertical blanking intverval. Halfway across the top of the screen at the beginning of active picture scanning you will find the first line of the beginning of field two, which occurs exactly half way across, right in the middle of the screen.</strong><br><br>I have these controls on my set but never saw this happen. Do I have to run in a much lower resolution, such as 480i to see it?<br></div><div class=“QuoteText” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>If I could get a better understanding of the blanking interval, I would appreciate it.</span></font><br></div>
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I will have to ask him to show me what he meant on one of his sets when I’m at his place again. I don’t see it either. My understanding is that the initial half line should be in the vertical blanking interval, so it wouldn’t be visible.</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>The vertical blanking interval is just the blank lines that are drawn above and below the active lines that actually make up the picture that you see. This is also called the front and back porch. The front porch is the blank lines below the active lines, and the back porch is the blank lines above the active lines. There are a few different reasons for these extra blank lines. They provide some space for the electron beam to stabilize after shooting back to the top of the screen, and they provide space for the sync pulses to take place without interfering with the active lines.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I’d like to note that I had tested out 720p earlier to see what interlace mode it was converting to but it wasn’t reporting it anymore, it was only reporting 720p. There was a little flicker, but very minor, so I’m not sure if I changed something a few years ago that stopped it from reporting in service mode or if I had turned off some of the digital processing that may have actually stopped it from converting 720p to some interlaced format of some sort. The reason being is because I wanted to see which interlace mode it was going into.<br></div>
</blockquote><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: small;”>I need to find out more about these HD Sony’s. I have a KV-32HS420 which will display 480p, 720p, 1080i, but I am not entirely sure either if it is displaying real 720p or interlacing. Some say that they are 31kHz sets. This would mean 480p and 1080i are doable, but 720p is not, as it would require a much higher scan rate. It could be interlacing to display it, or could actually have a wider range of supported scan rates and in fact be displaying real 720p.</span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: 10pt;”><br></span></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-size: 10pt;”>When we say that TV’s can’t do things like scaling, we are referring to “standard def” 15kHz TV’s. HD CRT’s certainly DO have these capabilities. They usually aren’t capable of scan rates lower than 31kHz, meaning they can’t physically display 240p or 480i. Either one is scaled up to 480p so it can be displayed. This is most obvious with 240p signals, as the lack of scanlines shows that it’s been upscaled.</span><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Anyhow, I haven’t looked into it too much because this set’s in storage. I got it for free and I’ve never used it much yet. See if you can find anything in the service manual. I can tell you that it likely is fixed one way or the other and can’t be changed.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><br>"<strong>Progressive video has only one frame, not two."</strong> - I never made a claim otherwise. Just wanted to clear that up. Maybe it was a misunderstanding because I exampled 2 frames in P mode in the diagram when I was hoping that it would be obvious frame 4, 5 all the way to 60 per second would have followed the same. No big deal.<br></div>
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<div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>I knew what you meant. I think he was either referring to what you said about 240p repeating each field twice, which isn’t true, or he just misinterpreted what you meant in your diagram. As I interpreted it, your diagram of “true progressive” is correct.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Last, but certainly not least if the display can actually show progressive content but just needs the bandwidth, well, since this IS tech talk, is there a way to increase the khz/hz range to accept progressive signals?<br></div>
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I’m not entirely positive on this one, but I </span></font><i style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>believe</i><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”> that the limitation of what scan rates a CRT is capable of is not in the tube itself, but in the chassis. There are conversion chassis’s to change a lot of different things about a CRT, but this is much more common with arcade monitors.</span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>There are some conversion chassis’s to “turn a standard TV into a 15kHz arcade monitor,” but they’re kind of stupid because there’s almost no difference to begin with. It just allows for RGBS inputs at arcade signal voltage levels from PCB’s, which could be accomplished with a transcoder like mine and some resistors. If you have an RGB SCART set, you don’t even need the transcoder.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Using a conversion chassis also requires that the tube and new chassis have compatible yoke connections (where the chassis connects to the back of the tube). Different TV’s often use different types of yoke connections, and Trinitrons have a non-standard type.</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/43971/mistahsnart">mistahsnart</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/18210/R-CADE%20Gaming">R-CADE Gaming</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>my transcoder halfway down the first post. I modded it with that large knob on the front to allow me to adjust the horizontal position shift on the fly. It’s just a 26-turn pot controlling the horizontal sync width.<br></div>
</blockquote>Ah, didn’t see that the first time through. I’d be curious to know how you wired this up. I’m using one of the ever-popular SCART->Component transcoders that are all over eBay (<a href=“http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/221156873851”>example</a>). </div>
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Yup, a CVS-287. I had one of those before I modded my SCART cables to work with my current setup and transcoder. They’re ok, but I don’t think they work with seperate H and V sync. It also a bad audio buzz, especially with Super Nintendo when there was a lot of white on the screen. I didn’t try too hard to fix it, as they seem pretty cheaply made, and I didn’t want to use it anymore anyway. </span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Open it up and check the pots inside. I remember there are pots for the color levels. You probably need to turn red down, as it’s way over-saturated from that thing. I can’t remember if there’s also any position pots, but you could check.<div><br></div><div>On the TC1600, there are some small pots in the back for sync adjustments. The h-sync delay will shift the picture left or right. I just de-soldered the h-course pot, and wired its connection points on the board to a larger 10-turn pot mounted in a hole I drilled in the front.</div></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>Here is the TC1600:</div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>http://www.crescendo-systems.com/TC1600_manual.pdf</span></font><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>And the pot I used:</span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3590S-2-502L/3590S-2-502L-ND/1088592</span><br></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>If the CVS-287 does not have a pot for this, you can try running the c sync line directly through a pot. It may not work on a composite video line used as sync, so use raw sync cables, or run the c video through an LM1881 first.</span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/8688/Kyle">Kyle</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Which is why you need the Action Replay. 
<br></div>
</blockquote>
<div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Ah, I guess I could have put two and two together. I don’t want to use cheat codes though, so it’s a little much just for the looks, especially consider having to have the cartridges stick out so far and the shelf space that would need.</span></font></div>
While I enjoy responding to questions, it takes half the night sometimes, and I need to take care other things, and work on projects, and maybe actually play some games.<div><br></div><div>I’m happy to answer questions about my projects specifically, but if there’s any more general video questions, please try looking it up. I know some of this stuff about old technology is hard to find on the internet. I’d recommend the book “Video Demystified: a Handbook for the Digital Engineer” by Keith Jack if you’re really interested.</div>
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. You’re right on the pots: first thing I did when I got it was calibrate it with an old Spears and Munsil disc. No position adjustments though. Same here on the SNES buzz, but during gameplay, I don’t really notice it, so I let it slide. It’s no biggie to just hop into the service mode on the Sony to shift the image, so I’ll just stick with that. Thanks!
Try a pot in the c sync line, you might be able to at least rig something up so you don’t have to turn the TV on and off so much.
Thanks, you went into a lot of depth and a lot of this stuff makes sense. Unfortunately yes, there isn’t much information on CRT tech anymore and I think with flat panels and fixed pixel displays being progressive and having built in de-interlacers to display interlaced video, people generally assumed CRT was interlaced because that was the main format. This was my mistake, and hopefully people can learn that isn’t the case with CRT tech.<br><br>Some things you pointed out I’ve seen first hand, for example, my Sony CRT PC Monitor can’t receive less that a 31khz signal. If I try to feed it anything less than 480p it goes nuts, so playing MAME at native arcade res is impossible, but if I have it scale to 480 I can see 2 scanlines for every “1” pixels (since it’s scaled by 2) and it looks bad 
So I just play scaled to “native” res (my PC monitor’s “native” is 1280x1024 though it can go a little higher, with artifacts) and generally prefer the non-scanline look anyway.<br><br>Since I can’t stand the new quoting system, I’ll just C&P.<br><br>"<strong>You can input all kinds of resolutions with different scan rates into most “standard definition” TV’s and they will attempt to display it. They don’t discriminate between different scan rates/resolutions or try to do anything differently with them because they usually don’t have any ability to distinguish these differences, as there’s no need. They just attempt to display the signal as it was received. You can input 480p, and it will try to display it. 480p requires a scan rate of 31kHz, so it won’t be able to scan fast enough to display it correctly, but it will try. Since it’s scanning too slow to display each line as fast as it is received, the picture will roll from being out of sync vertically and kind of bend diagonally from being out of sync vertically. You also might get color loss to varying degrees as sync signals start ending up where color lines should be and vice versa. Basically, you’ll get a bunch of garbage on screen."<br></strong><br>I’ve seen this happen first hand, but I thought it was because my TV wasn’t supporting progressive mode, not because it was out of the display’s maximum khz range. That’s a good thing to know, and I’m going to have to test out my Saturn on my XBR to see if that happens with a low res signal. Also, my TV will simply turn the display off if I feed it a 1080p signal via HDMI but if I use component then it will output garbage, pretty much exactly as you described. I never noticed that until about 2 nights ago, when I happened to have my components hooked up for some testing on the 480i signal to see if it was upscaling to a higher res or not.<br><br><strong>“The thing about PC monitors though is that they’re much more likely to have digital protection which only allows them to work with certain standard resolutions. Theoretically they should work with any scan rate within a certain range just like any other CRT, but some will detect what resolution is being input and will not attempt to display if it’s not on a predefined list of accepted resolutions. Some monitors are more picky than others.”</strong><br><br>Thankfully, my Sony monitor doesn’t do this. My TV when hooked up via PC does, though. However, while it limits what resolution I can use, I can still pretty much run any resolution I want but it will be pillarboxed and scaled to 1080i. Also, in case it may help you in the future when you tinker with your HS420 (A fairly popular model from what I recall) when hooked up to PC my TV is reporting 2 refresh rate modes available, 29hz and 30hz. And while some games are “ok” vsyncing to 60hz, like SF4:AE, others like SFxT have to manually edit the .ini to change the vsync to 30hz. I’m not quite sure why this happens Otherwise, if I try to vsync some games to 60hz the maximum limit my resolution will be 720p unless I vsync it to 30hz, then I can go full 1080i. My TV is definitely more picky.<br><br><p><strong>“I’m not entirely positive on this one, but I believe that the limitation of what scan rates a CRT is capable of is not in the tube itself, but in the chassis. There are conversion chassis’s to change a lot of different things about a CRT, but this is much more common with arcade monitors.</strong><br></p><strong>Using a conversion chassis also requires that the tube and new chassis have compatible yoke connections (where the chassis connects to the back of the tube). Different TV’s often use different types of yoke connections, and Trinitrons have a non-standard type.”</strong>
<p>So, somewhere in my chassis on one of the boards is a component that limits that, or is this also tied to other aspects like the yoke? I may have to look into this. If there was a way to get my TV to go full on 1080p, that would be so much nicer. Would breathe a little more life into it.<br></p><strong>“There are some conversion chassis’s to “turn a standard TV into a 15kHz arcade monitor,” but they’re kind of stupid because there’s almost no difference to begin with. It just allows for RGBS inputs at arcade signal voltage levels from PCB’s, which could be accomplished with a transcoder like mine and some resistors. If you have an RGB SCART set, you don’t even need the transcoder.”<br></strong><br>Ah man, that sounds so snake oily. <br><br><strong>“I need to find out more about these HD Sony’s. I have a KV-32HS420 which will display 480p, 720p, 1080i, but I am not entirely sure either if it is displaying real 720p or interlacing. Some say that they are 31kHz sets. This would mean 480p and 1080i are doable, but 720p is not, as it would require a much higher scan rate. It could be interlacing to display it, or could actually have a wider range of supported scan rates and in fact be displaying real 720p.”<br></strong><br>It’s been a few years since I last dived into mine, but I had documented a ton of service menu items from my XBR and converted the menu items to a spreadsheet, so that I always had default and whatever changes I was doing. I also had to test everything out to find out what that stuff does, just because. I’ll also try to look through my service manual to see if there is any information on what part would be responsible for the khz rate. If I find anything, I’ll pass it along. You should get that TV out of storage, man don’t let that thing die alone. It deserves a good home.<br><br>I did note earlier in my other posts that, for whatever reason, my TV is no longer reporting 720p being scaled to an interlaced signal, it’s reporting 720p in the service menu as 720p. So it may actually be doing true 720p, though it’s hard to know if the TV isn’t just reporting it or not. In factory default, I’m 99.99% sure that I recall seeing it scale to an interlaced format when I was doing color calibration in 720p mode via service menu. However, I have gone into service mode and disabled some of the digital processing, I think entirely disabling one of the mid data boards in which case, may have turned off any digital scaling that may have been going on. Why that would happen, I do not know. If I can find out, and what menu item it is, I will pass it along. Sony service menu items should be relatively the same through it’s line of TV’s, just certain TV’s having certain features not in others.<br><br> All right, I’ve more than derailed your topic enough. I really appreciate you taking the time to go over some things I was misinformed about. I hope it was a learning experience for more people than just me.<br>
<div>Sorry for the late reply. Very busy over the last few days.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=“Quote”><div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href=“http://forums.shoryuken.com/profile/15806/Moonchilde”>Moonchilde</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”>I’m going to have to test out my Saturn on my XBR to see if that happens with a low res signal… I happened to have my components hooked up for some testing on the 480i signal to see if it was upscaling to a higher res or not.<br></div></blockquote>It’s highly unlikely that your XBR is able to display real ~240p or 480i without upscaling to 480p first. You should check to see if you can see any scanlines with ~240p from your Saturn. I would be very surprised if the XBR’s lower limit isn’t 31kHz.</div><div><br></div><div>The problem with “HD” CRT’s is that with all this scaling and processing going on, there’s no guarantee of being lagless, the way there is with a 15kHz “standard def” CRT TV. I’d do some lag tests on that.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/15806/Moonchilde">Moonchilde</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><p>So, somewhere in my chassis on one of the boards is a component that limits that, or is this also tied to other aspects like the yoke? I may have to look into this. If there was a way to get my TV to go full on 1080p, that would be so much nicer. Would breathe a little more life into it.</p></div></blockquote>
Unfortunately there’s not just one little component somewhere that limits things arbitrarily. I meant the entire chassis is probably designed to only to work with a certain range of scan rates. You couldn’t change this with a simple or mod, you’d need to completely redesign or replace the chassis.
just wanna say i found Video Demystified itself to have little info on 240p back when I borrowed a copy from work and skimmed it, lol.<br>
<div class=“QuoteText”><p>Good thread. Almost too much information to take in at once. </p><p>One question: You said that the TC1600 can work with composite sync, but you still use H & V sync for various reasons. How come? Would you recommend the TC1600 to be used with arcade boards through a supergun using composite sync? Or is a sync splitter a necessity? <br></p><p>Thanks. </p><p><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.09375px;”><br></span></font></p></div>
Yes, the TC1600 will work fine with c sync on the h pin in automatic horizontal sync mode. This is the default mode, in which the picture will be centered automatically. <div><br></div><div>This works pretty well in most cases, but I prefer to have complete control, so I’m using the manual mode which is accessed by changing the jumper inside. This activates the tweaker pots on the back that adjust horizontal sync. I’ve re-routed the connections from the horizontal sync delay coarse adjustment pot to an added pot on the front (big knob in the picture) for easy horizontal position adjustment on the fly. The only down side is that it needs separate sync to work reliably in manual mode.</div><div><br></div><div>Another reason is that I’m working on a programmable turbo button system that will use the vertical sync pulse to keep exactly in sync, frame per frame, with the game. This will probably only be in my arcade when it’s done though.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, it’s useful in case I want to use this with another monitor or video processor or something needing separate sync.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, a TC1600 would work great with a Supergun. Be careful though, as PCB’s will often put out 3-5vpp signal levels, so you just need to use some resistors to bring that down to the standard 1vpp VGA level that the TC1600 is expecting. Test for yourself if filter capacitors are needed. </div><div><br></div><div>If you don’t need h-position adjustment from the TC1600, just put the c sync on the h pin. If you do need it, an LM1881 will work with the manual mode; put c sync on the h pin and v sync on the v pin. </div><div><br></div><div>An EL4583 isn’t any more complicated than an LM1881 if you don’t use the video filter (I don’t, not necessary with fairly clean c sync or c vid), but it’s like $10 instead of $2 for the LM1881. I’m picky, so I use the EL4583 for real H and V sync, but C and V from an LM1881 is fine in its place for most applications.</div>
In the first post, are those Paradigm speakers I see?<br><br>Also, nice retro setup. Old school gaming is one of the few reasons why I still have a CRT. I love it. LCD’s are better for modern games, but nothing beats a CRT for anything older than the PS2.<br>
Nope, it’s a matched Yamaha set. It’s decent enough. Eventually I want to get a better receiver and build my own speakers from scratch, but that’s way down the projects list.<div><br></div><div>I’d go so far as to say that 720p and 1080p content is the only thing that looks better on a modern flat screen. 480p looks oversharp and messy when poorly scaled. While the best display for 480p would be a 31kHz-capable CRT, I think compromising with 480i on my 15kHz TV still looks better than 480p does on my flat screens. The interlace tearing is not too bad, sometimes unnoticeable, and of course of it’s lag-free.</div>
I need an opinion, and this thread seems to be the best place to ask.
Hooking up my PC to an SD TV via component. Question: Extron Emotia or TC1600?
Extron pros
- Cheap
- Broadcast quality equipment
- 240p conversion (for consoles too if I can feed it RGBHV)
Extron cons
- Still need to convert from RGBS to component
- Hard to find power supply (most don’t come with one)
- Very large
TC1600 pros
- Direct component output
- Killer support
- Easily fits in AV setup
TC1600 cons
- Cost (which honestly isn’t a big deal)
- Requires Soft15khz or Arcade VGA to go below 480i
I’m leaning towards the TC1600 unless there’s a killer reason I should try to get an Extron up and running. Thoughts?
(and no, I’m not interested in using both in my setup)
More Extron pros:
Will work great with a computer power supply
Good for certain modern console games
S-Video out can go straight to the TV (it’s ok, obviously not as good as RGB to component)
Huge Extron con:
Puts out exactly 240p. I don’t know exactly what you’re using it for, but most classic 15kHz progressive games don’t actually run in exactly 240p. I usually use the term “~240p” because it’s more often 224, or 256 vertical lines, or something else like that. When this is scaled to 480 in the PC, then back to 240 in the Emotia, the end result is that your scanlines aren’t quite lined up properly. Same problem with an SLG-3000 or similar. It’s not super noticeable most of the time, but you can tell if you know what you’re looking for.
More TC1600 pros:
Get RGB out of all your old consoles
TC1600 cons:
None if your computer is setup correctly. Requiring Soft15kHz or similar is a PC problem, not a con of the TC1600, and a PC requires that go below 480p, unless you’re using “TV-out” with isn’t even worth talking about.
Also, a Super Emotia will have horizontal position, horizontal width, and vertical position controls, and an overscan/underscan setting. The TC1600 itself can only give you horizontal position, but you can control everything from the PC with custom modelines, eliminating the need to change geometry manually once your resolutions are set up.
As you can see from my setup, I’d recommend both. I never use the Emotia for the PC though, only modern consoles where it’s the only option for 240p. If you must have one or the other, you can really only use the Emotia on its own if you can live with S-video and improperly aligned scanlines.
Finally, after some playing around I’ve been doing this week, I’d highly recommend a Radeon card with CRT_Emudriver over Soft15kHz. Install CRT_Emudriver, enable 240p modelines with VMMaker, and edit them with ArcadeOSD and WinModelines.
Thanks for the speedy reply.
All great points. I’m really just screwing around with things. I guess the goal, even if it’s just to mess about with some tech, is to see how well I can get MAME titles running in as close to native on my CRT as possible. I screwed around a bit with Soft15khz today, and I’ll be damned if I can even get it to work. The system I put it on has a Radeon 6850 with Win 7, and I’m sure I could troubleshoot it and poke at it until I got some results, but at the same time, it revealed how much of a finicky thing Soft15khz would be to live with. I’ve not heard of CRT_Emudriver before. It looks as though it wants older gear, but I may give it a whirl. I’m also at the point where the rabbit hole on this bit of mucking about is getting quite deep, quite quickly. Perhaps it’s best to retreat now while I still can.
I know what you’re saying about the SLG and improperly aligned scanlines. I have one kicking around, and when I had it hooked up, it was one of the first things I noticed.
I think I might just get my video dorkery fix by picking up a Framemeister and seeing how it does on my plasma. Accepting the inevitable future, and all that.
I refuse to “accept the inevitable.” I’m going to continue stockpiling great cheap and free CRT’s like a crazy person and have authentic classic gaming forever >:) …
Soft15kHz is not meant to work with Windows 7, and a Radeon 6850 is not listed as compatible anyhow. You need XP or XP64 for it to be stable, and a card listed as compatible for it to work.
http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten
I’d recommend getting something listed for CRT_Emudriver. You can find something listed here for $20 or $30 on eBay:
http://mame.3feetunder.com/windows-ati-crt-emudriver/
While I had a good amount of success with a nVidia card and Soft15kHz, CRT_Emudriver seems to be even more flexible. I’ve been playing with it this week, and so far I’ve gotten everything I’ve tried running in native res, with nicely proportioned and centered geometry AND at the native refresh rate (very important).
So do you think it would be possible to engineer a female SCART to male VGA+3.5mm stereo?
Yes, this is very easy:
-
As long you are dealing with RGB signals on both ends. VGA is always RGB, but SCART can also carry composite and S-Video.
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As long as you can get 5 volts from somewhere. This is needed to power a sync splitter for SCART to VGA; may not be need for VGA to SCART. You can usually get power from a SCART signal on pin 8 or a VGA signal on pin 9. In the worst case, you can use an external power adapter.
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As long as the tv/monitor is compatible with the resolution your source is outputting. If not, there are plenty of upscalers and downscalers compatible with RGB signals to take care of this.
Connecting the red, green, blue, left and right audio, and ground is just a simple connect the dots between the two connector types.
The only difference is sync. RGB SCART uses composite sync (or composite video as sync depending on the source) , whereas VGA uses separate vertical and horizontal sync.
For SCART to VGA, you need to run the SCART signal’s composite sync/video through a sync splitter chip. The LM1881’s composite sync and vertical sync output will work for VGA most of the time (using composite as horizontal). If you have something more picky, you can get real H and V from an EL4583.
For VGA to SCART, you just have to combine the VGA signal’s H and V sync into composite sync. There are a couple of ways of doing this. Some people have just connected them straight together, though I wouldn’t expect the levels to be reliable that way. Here’s one of the simplest ways I’ve found:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44600
and another:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/scart.htm
One other thing is that some SCART monitors only accept composite video as sync, as opposed to pure composite sync. In this case, you could just a resistor to knock down the composite sync you’ve created to the 0.3Vpp level that it would expect find in composite video. Some SCART inputs may also need 12V on pin 8.