MvC3: I'm the Second Best at What I Do: The X-23 Team-Building Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1301

Speaking of X-23 in 3rd, though I’d dislike putting her in that position, I wonder if putting X-23 behind two strong characters that are capable of TAC infiniting is a strong tactic (pretty sure it’s been discussed before). Of course, if your first character goes down, you’ll probably lose momentum, unless you can get X-23 into the 2nd position through a cross over, or you have a character that has a hyper that allows safe raw tags (like Trish, who also has a TAC infinite). X-23’s DHCs are unsafe, and weak as enders in terms of damage.

People will be tempted to snap in X-23 after they’ve eaten a few successful Silent Kills and she plays a supporting role in the back with Crescent Scythe crossovers (which you can convert into a combo if you land the Scythe crossover counter, right?) and unblockables.

1302

CS converts into a full combo on hit by just cancelling it into a TA L, land s.M > whatever.

I’m gonna give Magneto(Hypergrav)/X23(CS/OTG)/IM(RB) and Morrigan(Harmonizer)/X23(CS/OTG)/IM(RB) (or maybe Dante w/ JS on anchor) a few good shakes and see what falls out.

The Magneto team is pretty much a MVC2 shoutout but Mags does a great job of getting into RB range without bothering with a hori assist and has some of the best TAC lead ins/fakes/neutral in the game. I feel like gravitation options + RB would be pretty awesome and if forcefield + RB converts into a combo that should be pretty sick. Hypergrav would be your post Dirt Nap pickup and might be able to 2nd extend in light HSD combos (haven’t looked into it yet.) I think you might be able to use it as a ghetto incoming cover in the event of IM getting killed and I think you might be able to pick up easily off RBs with point IM with it as well.

In theory, the Morrigan team seems really strong. I’ll bet there’s a soul drain loop with RB somewhere and adding one of the best defensive assists in the game on top of one of the most annoying flood characters in the game seems like it can’t be a bad thing. Plus Morrigan is one of the only characters with a non-TAC infinite that seems even remotely practical and one of 5 characters with the TAC double glitch. Having Dark Harmonizer negates the need to have a post dirt nap pickup since you’re trading for raw meter gain rather and sets up easy combos to TAC through to IM. If there’s any chance that her non-TAC infinite is viable then you are free to use almost any of the incoming guarantees you want, too.

Oh yeah, for anyone not reading the inferrence here, I did absolutely terrible at FR…0-2 in brackets and about as good in casuals overall (Wandles was one match away from getting out of pools and beat Clockwork in a MM again, though)… I think IM is destined to be an assist character in this game. :confused:

1303

Don’t worry about it! Just glad you and the rest of the X-23 players repped the character (I saw Da Vip playing matches in the tournament), and I’m pretty sure you gave it your all anyway. Who’d you fight anyway?

1304

I love playing her on point and think a team like X-23/Dorm/Doom would be ideal for her. Dorm/Doom is ridiculous good and covers a lot of the weaknesses X-23 has (keep away, Morrigan, etc.), Dirt Nap set-ups, relaunch and mixups available, etc. I’d play this team, if my Doom wasn’t so ass. Plus, I can’t charge up with Dorm fast enough to do that wicked DHC.

1305

IIRC, Marlinpie was in his pool. Certainly no slouch there, but good stuff repping Laura.

Iron Man IS an assist character. Ideally, he supports X23 better than Doom, but at the price of playing Iow tier. He’s not top tier enough to pick fights with the best in the game, and he is solely designed for a more methodical strategy and the infinite engine. That’s why I put him at anchor for a while because he gave X23/Dorm incredible assets, and it pretty much lessened the idea of having him on my team late in a match where his counters are virtually removed. I still think X23/IM/RR is a strong team which effectively gives Laura her complete tools to fight in the metagame.

1306

Yeah, lost my first match to an ATL MODOK (if I would have won, I would have had to play marlinpie, lol.)

Second match I lost to stick malfunctions. The ground chain on my buttons has to be redone and I started losing my directionals mid-match…In traditional tourney fashion I noticed this happening during casuals the night before and thought I got everything working. :confused:

I got to play a set against Meep playing his Zero/X23/Dante and got bodied, as well as one of the X23 players that knows Class Real (plays X23/Dorm/Vergil and managed to take a set off ABEGEN.) Went 1-3 and 2-3 on the two sets we played.

I think X23/IM/RR suffers from low-tier-itis. It will beat the shit out of either good players playing bad teams or bad players playing bad teams, but it seems worthless against good players playing good teams.

I’m still going to keep it around, I’m just gonna see about injecting some tier into it and see how it goes.

Morrigan and Log have really good soul drain loops so I might check that pairing out. Morrigan/X23/RR would probably be pretty solid if you got to a point where you could reliably non-TAC infinite with Morrigan.

1307

After seeing FR, I’m pretty sure Z/X/V will be x’s best team. The best zero’s got most of their hit with AA assists (usually dante) and x can fill that roll. Most zero’s didn’t use xf on him. x’s CS CC gets zero out free. Zero’s AA assist is a free dirt nap. Vergil’s assist is great lockdown for x. Vergil is the best anchor if all go wrong. Vergil dhc will kill all characters x touches… You don’t need to build meter, but z has a tac infinite if you need… The triple team hurts. There’s a ton of positives and you can change the order for the match up… The only issue is that I think the best form of that team is z\mor\v…

1308

I know what you mean about that low-tier-itis although I might just call it mid-tier-itis. She seems kinda helpless in certain matchups and it a lot of the characters that support her best aren’t that great. Meanwhile Zero is stupid on his own but also just happens to go great with dante, vergil, doom, and magneto! So yeah, it can be tough to deal with a lot of the top teams.

Anyways, I’m really doubting the morrigan with x23 and RR pairing. The “soul drain loops” are more in the realm of theory monster or combo video stuff. The main thing is that hitstun has to be low for soul drain loops to work, as they aren’t something you can DHC into unless you have an assist holding your opponent in hitstun the entire time. Not to mention the soul drain loops are generally very tricky to do consistently and typically require certain screen positioning and/or a clean grounded starting hit. Damage is also typically neglected in soul drain combos you see in combo videos. The practical way to land soul drains is to do more traditional bnbs and use assists to combo into a few soul drains on the way. With rapid slash and hidden missles, you can land up to 4 soul drains in the corner before spending a bar while doing a consistent combo that does solid damage. All things considered, that is the better and more realistic option.

I’ve looked into the morrigan/x23 synergy a few times(even ran them together on an old main team that I eventually realized was bad). First off their DHC synergy is terrible. Second, their assists are not very useful for each other. Morrigan can sort of use ankle slice for short ranged unblockables and for short otg extensions with strict timing. None of morrigan’s assist really help x23 though. I guess more meter is nice, but its taking a crucial spot for an assist that lets you open up opponents and/or get another relaunch(which results in building more meter anyways along with more damage). The biggest flaw with the pairing is that x23 and morrigan have pretty different ideal teammates. Log trap does not cover superjump height or lockdown long enough for morrigan to safely get close and mix people up like missles do. Maybe your team could work if you got the non-TAC infinite down, but it has yet to be proven to be practical. But even if you did master it, I think you’d still be feeling that “low-tier-itis” again since this team uses none of its 3 members to their potential.

1309

Yeah, I’m not sure how well it will work out in the end. I’m trying out different pairings just to see if there’s some higher tier synergy I missed early on.

I’m also looking into X23/Morrigan/Dante in it’s various orders and seeing if there’s anything there. You still get 1 touch > TAC infinite > double dirt nap and having DH in place of a 2nd pickup means you don’t have to worry about as much on low health characters since the followup meter comes so easily but you have to pop XF for the pickup if they’re not grounded/cornered so it limits your options which is a bit meh…

I wonder if it would be possible to use the corner sj.M>TA M > RT options to retain the SJ install (I know this much is possible) and DHC into AV and land her infinite…1 touch > Corner > guaranteed non-TAC infinite > double dirt nap would be the pinnacle of broken…

Harmonizer is pretty sick for X23 but I think it might be worth looking into using guard break OS setups to get into guaranteed grounded dirtnaps (for the assistless pickup) rather than running one of the easier dirt nap guarantees since JS and tenderizer have limited use in neutral and RB’s attached to IM…(I don’t know how viable he’s going to be in the end game…)

I think it’s pretty much a requirement if you want to run a meter build assist since you’re trading your post dirtnap pickup for the free meter.

I guess it might be worth giving some more thought to LintLikr’s team (X23/Dorm(DH)/Morrigan(DH)) if you’re running guard break OS on incoming. Guaranteed corner dark hole > dirt nap on block and if they get hit you can go into an early WXP > AV and maybe set up some soul drain loops that way.

1310

You got to play him? That’s cool, I’m still sad I didn’t get to see him play Abegen. Sorry we didn’t get a chance to play but things were a lot busier than I thought they’d be and once they calmed down I wasn’t sure how to contact you guys. I did see you walking around in those orange shirts during one of my pool matches though. I didn’t do too great either, went 3-2 in pools. Got knocked out by Kane Blueriver who is totally one of the most amazing players I’ve ever played, and some random dude using Spencer/Nova/Doom. I had a great time all the same though, we ended up having Clockwork, Fanatiq, Knives, Xian, and Kane in and out of our room for casuals in Marvel, so it was a good time. Very educational.

As for the low-tieritis thing…I’m not sure how I feel about that in general. I definitely felt the same way you did watching my team get blown up, and then watching Bobby Hill (An amazing Strange player) not be able to take a game off of Neo on stage. I still think X-23 can be competitive but I wonder if the only way to keep her viable against top players is by doing what Quasidomo and Dapvip do. Their teams aren’t X-23 optimized but they’re stronger overall than ours are. Dapvip has Zero to fall back on and Quasi has Skrull. For most of us, when Laura dies what do we have? We have characters who have to work just as hard, if not harder, than Laura does. We have characters just as assist-dependent and matchup focused as X-23 is. Some of us might not even have “real” anchors to fall back on in the worst case scenario. One thing Clockwork did to me a lot was he snapped out X-23 for Ammy, after he did that it was like…Well shit, what do I do now? X-23 isn’t the best anchor, Doctor Strange isn’t the best anchor, and both of them rely on Cold Star to be effective. So what now? I lose, that’s what. I worry that by making sure Laura’s as strong as she can possibly be we might be making our teams too top heavy. Some players can get away with being top heavy. Knives, MarlinPie, and Nemo are all infamously top heavy teams; but there’s a huge difference between having Akuma/Sentinal to clean up with and having the characters we use to clean up with. We might be working too hard.

I’m not entirely sure what I’ll do yet. I still feel good about my team since X-23 + Bolts and Ammy anchor lead me to doing way better against Kane and Clockwork than I know I should’ve, but I feel bad about not getting out of pools.

1311

DapVip ran Dante/X23/IM. (Though he’s changing to Wesker/Dante/Mags.) So he ran into the exact same problem we do, lol except a bit worse for X23 since he doesn’t have a dirt nap guarantee. The team could have theoretically been much stronger if focused around TACing to IM with Dante since most hits come from either teleport beam or Throw OS. IM beam might be passable in guard break OS setups.

Meep ran Zero/X23/Dante. (He was talking about switching to Wolvie in the tier thread.)

We’re a dying breed, guys… :confused:

Otherwise, we’re pretty much saying the same thing. I feel like the characters that have WTF amazing synergy with X23 either need specific synergy of their own or are just generally lower tier characters.

I felt ok with running X23/IM/RR since X23 felt like a full character and IM+Log felt solid UNLESS people were able to literally stay full screen where Log can’t hit. There were just too many times where I didn’t feel like I got a chance to play my game since I was stuck running gauntlets and respecting their gameplans.

That’s the whole reason that I’m looking to pair her with top tier characters at a sacrifice of a little synergy.

**
LETS TALK TIER WHORING.**

Double dirt nap team: (A)Dirt Nap Guarantee, (B) Infinite character, © post dirt nap pickup unless you run a Guard Break OS.

(In lieu of JS, for the argument of team building, I assume guard break OSs would work, which open up grounded assists with enough hitstun. The post dirt nap assist is about meter gain and saving XF, so dark harmonizer and grounded dirt naps solve that problem as well.)

Top Tier Characters:
Viper - Great Point. Great toolset for getting hit and great meter gain but needs meter to get started. Late TAC combos, seismo for post dirt nap pickup.
Zero - Great Point. great battery, great neutral/synergy with JS, great incoming setups, Late TAC combos… (why play x23 at all, though?)
Mags - Great Point. great battery, great neutral, infinites, super late TAC options. Not great assist synergy, Hypergrav is a sub-par assist, but needed for DDN.
Vergil - Decent Point. Meter hog, but again, great at getting hits. Rapid slash works as a 1st extender, meh neutral, and dirt nap guarantee with guard break OS.
Morrigan - Great Point. Bit of a meter hog for flood options but great neutral. Infinites (theory non-tac infinites), harmonizer, super late TACs
Dante - Decent Point.Can be a meter hog, though he can battery as well. Has trouble TACing late. JS easiest dirt nap guarantee, but only kinda useful in neutral.
Doom - Lousy Point. Infinites, most likely missiles would work as a dirt nap guarantee with a guard break OS setup and extender, but not a great neutral tool for X23.
Dorm - Decent Point. Meter Hog, questionable infinites, DH for guard break OS dirt naps/great extensions/neutral. Decently late TACs.
Nova - Great point. 2nd relaunch (iffy for me, but not for others?), infinite, great DHCs.

(A)Dirt nap guarantee options:
Dante - Jam Session - easiest choice, but no versatility.
Vergil - Rapid Slash - Would need to use guard break OS to use, but has some added versatility.
Zero - DP/Hadangeki/fH - Would probably all work with guard break OS, though they might need to be in sougenmu to work.
Doom - Missiles - Might work on a guard break OS.
Dorm - Dark Hole - Might work on a guard break OS.

(B)Infinite Characters:
Zero - Corner only?(tricky?)
Doom - Corner and Mid
Mags - Corner and Mid
Morrigan - Corner and Mid
Dante - Corner only, only Up and Down TACs.
Dorm - Corn + Mid…not match practical imo, though.
Nova - Corn + Mid

©Post Dirt Nap Pickups:
Mags- Hypergrav (finicky)
Dorm - Dark Hole
Viper - Seismo
Nova - Cent. Rush

In an ideal situation, I think you want X23 2nd with a strong point character TACing through to an infinite character…so based on all of that…

Vergil(RS)/X23/Mags(EMD) - Need EMD for Vergil synergy, RS is solid for guard break OS setups, though. Dirt naps when Vergil is alive wouldn’t do a whole lot, but if you manage to catch them with the guard break rather than the dirt nap, you should kill with the Vergil DHC. EMD not great for X23

Dante(JS)/X23/Mags(EMD) - Teleport / OS city. You would have to guard break OS into JS to get double dirt naps, though. EMD not great for X23. If dante dies, X23 becomes a liability.

Viper(OTG)/X23(CS/OTG)/Dante(JS) - no great infinite, but solid incoming setups from Viper+Dante and Dante + X23 and resets to make up for it.

Morrigan(CS/DH)/X23(OTG/CS)/Doom(Missiles) - Probably the best option if you’re committed to running guard break OS setups…not 100% sure if you can make the Guard Break OS on this airtight or not. (haven’t labbed it.)

Zero/X23/Dante - (Team Meep) No infinite, but solid team and battery. Meep has proven this one viable. Probably better to just go full derp and put Vergil or strider on instead though.

X23(OTG)/Morrigan(DH)/Dante(JS) - I think Dante point is risky since you don’t have a neutral and you’ve lost if he dies, most likely. easy worry free dirt naps, though. Morrigan/Dante supposed to be a strong pairing, though and meter is a non-issue on this team. Lots of safe DHCs/gimmick possibilities.

X23(OTG)/Dorm(DH)/Morrigan(DH) - (Team LintLikr) if you’re running Guard breaks this should be a solid team. Lots of meter and great meter users. (plus tons of labwork done thanks to LintLikr01)

X23(OTG)/Dorm(DH)/Doom(Missiles) - As long as you have reliable guard breaks and a TAC-through combo, this should be solid. Dorm/Doom won’t be threatening unless they come in with meter, though.

Nova/X23/Doom(Missiles) - Nova without a beam is a bit less derp than normal, but zone > advance with missiles > dance on head > TAC is solid enough. Quesionable dirt nap guarantee with guard break OS.

Mags(Hypergrag)/X23/Doom(Missiles) - Exact same as above. Still quesionable dirt nap guarantee with guard break OS.

1312

Sorry for the long post, would be interested in hearing other opinions.

1313

How about X-23/Dorm/Mags? relaunch with dark hole, TAC through to easy infinite, derp nap setups with dark hole, with a proven badass of a shell second, and a nice anchor to boot. Good sniping assist. Deadly all the way through.

The only problem I see there is it’s not 100% optimal for X-23, with only one relaunch assist, that happens to be the same as her dirt nap assist.

1314

I think you’re on the right track, but I’m still not sure about X-23 second. The thing I like about Quasidomo’s team is that he’s got X-23 on point to do her thing, but if she loses he’s got a very solid backup plan. With X-23 second (And with only one assist) I feel like it’s putting too much pressure on her to be a performance character. You may get easier Dirt Naps but I also think it would be easier for you to be put in bad situations. Say I run the Nova/Laura/Doom team (My personal favorite in the list) against a popular team like Wolverine/Doom/Vergil. I mess up once and lose Nova because his health is bad. Now I’ve got X-23/Missiles vs. Wolverine/Missiles/RS. X-23 vs. Wolverine is a tough match in the best of conditions, but now I’m falling into an incoming mixup and there’s no way I’m getting to safely call Missiles with him in my face. So X-23 dies simply due to a bad matchup with no support. Now it’s up to Doom, a questionable anchor, to make the full comeback.

That’s what scares me away from X-23 second. It’s a very risky order because you can just get steamrolled. So if you do run her second I would want a very strong character on anchor, someone like Vergil or Magneto. I wouldn’t be comfortable with Doom, Dante, Dorm, or Morrigan making the full comeback. With her on point you lose a more guaranteed Dirt Nap, but you gain match security. You get to gamble with her early on and if it doesn’t pay off you can ideally depend on two more characters to clean the game up. That’s actually what I think is the biggest problem with my team of X-23/Bolts. It’s a powerful combination but if Laura dies Strange is too easy to rush down and kill before he gets going. Too often I’m left struggling to make an Ammy comeback just because I got hit once.

So if I were to change my team (Still unsure) I would want to get the risks out of the way at the start. Sort of like how Justin Wong ran his Iron Fist team. If Iron Fist died, big deal, he still had Wolvie/Akuma. And if Wolverine died he still had Akuma anchor. Everything Iron Fist did was essentially just a bonus. What we probably should be doing is looking for powerful two character shells that include at LEAST an A tier anchor (S tier obviously preferred) and can provide X-23 as much support as possible. With that in mind I think X-23/Doctor Doom/Amaterasu might be one of our better options. We get a TAC infinite, a beam, a lockdown, fairly guaranteed Dirt Nap setups, a powerful two character shell, and a serviceable anchor. I’ve experimented with running the team in the past, and if I liked Doom more it’s probably what I would stick with.

1315

I feel like there are a lot of other point characters that have cheaper ways to open a character up compared to X23. That’s the only reason I think someone else should handle point. Plus a lot of other characters Mags can TAC super late compared to X23. If your point dies you should just be looking to have as close to 5 meters as possible, XFGC, and kill 2~3 characters anyways.

1316

I see your point, there are a lot of characters who get the job done easier. I just think it would make things harder to come up with a strong enough team for it.

Random question, has anyone ever experimented with Wesker’s Jaguar Dash assist? I just found out today that it gives you a guaranteed soft fall every time it hits. It’s one of the only assists I’ve found that can keep my longer combos going even after Cold Star affects the scaling. I don’t know anything else about it though. I always just picked Gunshot assist.

1317

Yes, I used it the first hour of ultimate since my vanilla team was wesker/x23/dante (awful team btw). it’s wesker’s best assist for x23 since you can use it for the same otg extensions.

Still it’s an assist from wesker, they all suck.

1318

Meep’s team is proven, I wanted to steal that team but I can’t do lighting loops consistently. That team got him out of Evo pools, it really doesn’t require massive setup just extensive knowledge with Zero killing something meter positive, then Laura XFC>dirt nap for the last two.

What I like about X23/Dorm/Rocket though is that it’s poised to combat the current meta. Free setups, 1 mil ToDs, infinite (impractical, bonus if mastered), blows up assist, traps to counter phx, free spells, builds good meter, top 5 assist, top tier presence, etc etc. Can work with Dorm/X23/Rocket to combat MODOKs choosing a place on a screen (Dorm really rapes MODOK) and my experiences vs. Doom is very favorable with Dorm. SF makes all of Laura’s DHCs safe, and CS counter available against happy rushdown. If RR gets snapped I feel like he has tools in getting back out safely, and his unique size messes up incoming.

The Double Dirt Nap engine for the most part has failed to be consistently valuable in tourney setting. It’s what every X23 should be working toward of course, but I think CR is right about needing strong guys behind Laura just in case things go south (and things WILL go south, but the best players still manage to win). She needs Top Tier muscle to throw their weight around a bit, she needs a decent assist to support her movement, she needs a lot lol.

1319

Which is why I think X23/Vergil/Doom (or Vergil/X23/Doom) is the future. It’s not optimized 100% for X23, the character, but I think it’s the optimized X23 team for winning.

1320

It’s hard to argue with that team, though I would worry about X-23 being second for the same reasons I talked about before. Doom anchor just wouldn’t do it for me.

I’m thinking of revisiting the idea of X-23 (Ankle Slice)/Wesker (Jaguar Dash)/Amaterasu (Cold Star). I’d have a strong character available to me if Laura dies, I’d get Jaguar Dash extensions to make up for the otherwise poor DHC into Phantom Dance, I’d get meaty Neck Slice + Jaguar Dash setups, and some tricky feint mixups that give me two chances to cross someone up since Jaguar Dash causes a decent bit of blockstun.

My only problem with this team in theory is that Jaguar Dash is not a serviceable neutral game assist and Wesker with only Cold Star may not be very strong. I know he’s got a lot he can do with it, but I would lack fullscreen teleport mixups.