…That’s so incredibly unlikely it’s almost funny.
surely it is, LOL.
but if xfactor lv3 is so instant win as everyone seems to think in this thread, should be quite easy to do.
Thanks for the personal attack. Being pushed into a corner is independent of losing health. Plus, you can get out of a corner and then have all your options back. You can’t revive your characters to get your assists back.
I feel like I gave a pretty clear standard that I think XFactor is good because it counteracts the negative slippery slope, and that XFactor is only bad in the event that it rewards doing poorly more than doing well. Mario Kart, for example, disproportionately rewarded people for doing poorly – you never want to be in first place, since doing so would mean you get blue-shelled, and sometimes you wanted to be in last place because your items would simply be too good. Mario Kart games (at least in my experience) thus involved not trying to win until as late as possible, and while this is an interesting mechanic, I don’t think it’s good for fighting games.
Your claim here that some people will sometimes let characters die when they are on low health rather than attempt a very risky rawtag and/or burn hella meter to DHC them out does not convince me that XF level 3 is disproportionately rewarding poor play. Plus, losing characters already results in mixups for incoming characters and other shenanigans; just because people aren’t rawtagging their other characters in doesn’t mean that they are “purposely letting their characters die”. It’s simply the case that attempting to save the character is risky and might cost them the game, and not the case that they’re going for XF level 3. If XF weren’t there, people probably still wouldn’t try to rawtag characters in to save them because of the inherent risks in doing so.
I think I’ve offered a very clear standard on why I think XF is generally good: because 1. it mitigates slippery slopes and 2. it manages to do so without disproportionately rewarding poor play.
I unfortunately cannot discern what your biggest complaints about XF are. So far it seems like you think that slippery slopes are okay (which would represent a fundamental and irreconcilable disagreement, and I’d be interested in why you think this way), that you think that XF does disproportionately reward poor play (I’m not seeing how; it undoubtedly gives you something to hold onto in the event that you made some mistakes and lost characters, but your opponent has access to it too, and plus players seem to prefer having characters alive to having XF level 3), and that you think this game isn’t as good as Marvel 2 is (fair enough, but why does that matter in terms of game design and XF?)
If he indeed said that, then I guess I am wrong. I don’t keep up with what Seth says; I simply came to the conclusion based on what you wrote. In any case, the reasoning behind counteracting these situations is that they impose a rather steep slippery slope.
Hmm, just because a game has one flawed design element does not suggest that it is a bad game. Chess and Starcraft do unfortunately have slippery slopes, but they manage to be good games anyway. MvC2 is a good game, in my opinion, as well, despite having a slippery slope. But if you could avoid it, then that would be better game design. World in Conflict, for example, refunds your units when they are destroyed - doing so limits slippery slope. You still don’t want to lose units because then you won’t have units on hand, but that disadvantage fades over time. I’m not a competitive RTS player, so I’m not saying anything about whether WiC or Starcraft is a better game (and even if I were I find it unreasonable to compare any RTS to Starcraft just because Starcraft has the advantage of a large community that no other RTS has) but I think that the fact that WiC attempted to counteract slippery slope in RTS, a traditionally very slippery genre, is indicative that such an initiative has more merit than you are giving it credit for.
Again, it depends on what your standards are. If my standards were “comebacks aren’t hard unless they are as hard as they were in MvC2” then yeah, comebacks aren’t hard. My standards are simply “comebacks are hard if I think that the likelihood that they will be able to do it isn’t very high”, and while that likelihood is higher than it was in MvC2, I can still confidently say that I have watched and been impressed by XF comebacks before, and I think it’s a bit ridiculous to say that no comeback is impressive if it involves XF. Sure, maybe comebacks aren’t as “pretty” in MvC3 since they usually involve simpler combos, but I am still impressed by them, because I find people succeeding under unlikely situations impressive.
How epic would that be if someone pulled that off though? That is the question.
We should totally make this change just so something this epic would be possible and completely disregard game design sense because who cares about good game design, JUST IMAGINE SOMEONE DOING THAT IN A TOURNAMENT OMG
Seriously, though, why is this notion fundamentally different from the notion that XF is bad because it results in less exciting comebacks? If we wanted super exciting comebacks, then why don’t we make it so that killing a character also docks 50% of your other characters’ health? That way comebacks are even more exciting when they happen, right?
X-Factor is not only boring and way too strong, but it also extremely favors the fastest mixup characters the game has to offer. Catering to one subset of the high-low mixup character is probably one of the worst parts of X-Factor and makes chars from franchises that aren’t built around that system to fail badly. If you’re going to introduce new systems to your fighting games you have to make sure every character can take advantage of it reasonably well OR that you give the characters who can’t enough options to defend against it. X-Factor fails in every way.
That would require you having intense control of the match… lol
At this point I have heard a lot of interesting ideas to balance X-Factor, but the only one that I have heard was interesting was splitting it up into different powerups. We’ll see what they do with Super MvC3.
Yeah man, imagine Mags just going in and pimp slapping bitches out the screen, then finishing off with tempest on the 2 incoming characters. HYYYYPE.
You’re welcome. And you’re right, you can get out of the corner in Street Fighter. And you have to do it without the help of any universal mechanics. Now, if SF had a mechanic like the Evil arcana in ah3, then yea, that would be like xf. But it doesn’t, and that’s a small part of the reason why ‘Street Fighter’ is a ‘good game’.
That’s actually not an interesting mechanic, it’s fucking retarded, which is why Mario Kart with items on is a casual fuck-around game.
Well, you’re ignorant then. Dunno what else to say.
Doing a safe DHC is not risky. People DID raw tag their characters a lot, because they thought it was important to save them, but now they know better. Like I said, win/win situation. You don’t have to take the risk, AND you get a stronger xf level if you die.
I think your sense of ‘proportion’ is way off. XF definitely disproportionately rewards getting killed, seeing how the ‘standard’ proportion would be receiving only meter. You already get 2/3rds the meter your opponent gets. Anything more is disproportionate. Why are slippery slopes bad? Why shouldn’t you be punished, or have to deal with being put in a worse position because of mistakes? That’s the core of competitive games. What’s the point of managing your team when the game is going to give you something so that you can try and come back from a series of mistakes?
Your opponent does not have access to it, if it’s 3 vs 1, they have access to xfl1, and you have access to xfl3. If your opponent lands the first hit, they win, which is what should happen anyway, because you got outplayed the entire match. If you get the first hit, you’re killing that character, then getting 2 more coinflips on the incoming characters for the kill. Dunno what planet you’re from, but that is way better odds than the losing player deserves.
Like I said in my original post, the game already gives you plenty to come back on.
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You get tons of meter, and a ton of characters (many of which are common assist characters) can burn that meter to kill characters, from many positions.
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Assists aren’t nearly as strong as they are in Marvel 2, so the situation of having 2 or 3 characters vs 1 is actually not bad at all comparatively.
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There is nothing wrong with losing options as you lose the game. It just means that the match is a single game, instead of 2 (pre-xfactor and post-xfactor). Please answer this question: why should you be given something additional on top of a ton of meter, because you made mistakes, got hit, and are losing? In what world does a player deserve such a thing? Why should you get something for that? Because it makes it more fun [for shit players]? Because you want something for nothing? You come across as someone that just wants everyone to be able to win, no matter how shit they are. That’s fine for family games on the Wii, but you are on a site dedicated to competition.
This is a wrong thing. No need to even argue against it.
Sorry but if you think an xfl3 comeback is impressive…that’s really sad.
While that is a good point (and one that I agree with) that a comeback mechanic does make sense in a team based fighting game where a ‘slippery slope’ exists, that doesn’t make Xfactor okay.
- Just because it remedies the problem does not make it the best way to do so. As it stands Xfactor makes the game very… “derpy” for its duration. The match is effectively put on hold as one person just runs away till Xfactor runs out.
2)It favors some characters significantly more than others, see Pheonix
3)Doesn’t add anything to the game, in fact it takes away as you no longer need any advanced anything, just chain a few hits for 100%. Ultras (another system I dislike) at least gave most characters a tool they didn’t have before.
4)Other aspects of it such as guard canceling into an attack I’m just not a big fan of.
5)It’s too much of a boost. Seriously, way too strong.
I’m not sure exactly why you’re okay with Street Fighter having a relatively neutral slippery slope (getting hit into a corner or knocked down temporarily limits your options but you get them back) but you’re not okay with MvC3 attempting to achieve a neutral slippery slope by counteracting its inherent negative slippery slope. SF4, too, has an Ultra combo system that also “rewards” getting hit, since you don’t get access to it until after you have taken a certain amount of damage. Surely, it is not as powerful as XF is, but they both are in the spirit to achieve the same things.
I’m saying that as it is, people would not be rawtagging to save characters even if XF did not exist, because doing so would be very risky, and therefore the fact that people are not rawtagging to save characters does not convince me that XF is causing people to let characters die because it is too strong.
There are no permanent slippery slopes in SF either. You are not punished for getting hit beyond losing health and maybe temporarily punished by being in a corner or knocked down.
Because of MvC3’s core mechanics, you are punished beyond losing health for getting hurt - you lose your assists. In order to counteract this and make it similar to the SF system where you are not punished for getting hit beyond losing health, the designers put in something else to compensate for this additional loss: XF. This is what I’m saying. I think the concept that you are being “rewarded” for playing poorly simply isn’t true: you’re being punished and rewarded at the same time, so that it ends up being neutral (or so is the intent of XF).
“Slippery slope is usually a bad property in a game. If a game has a powerful slippery slope effect, that means that when one player gets a small early lead, he is more likely to get an even bigger lead, which in turn makes him more likely still to get yet an even bigger lead, and so on. In a game like this, the real victor of the game is decided early on, and the rest of the game is futile to play out (or to watch).” -David Sirlin
"StarCraft and Chess do have slippery slope. They manage to be good games anyway, despite this anti-climactic property." -David Sirlin
MvC fighters are some of the ONLY fighters with a slippery slope, and slippery slopes are bad. XF is not an attempt to reward people for bad play, but rather an attempt to counteract the slippery slope so that MvC3 has a close to neutral, possibly slightly negative slope JUST LIKE ALL OTHER FIGHTERS.
In regards to XF level 3 comebacks, I simply question your rather sweeping claim that ALL XF Level 3 comebacks are NOT impressive. I’m sure at least one of the ones you’ve seen is, and I’ve definitely been impressed by some myself. I didn’t say that ALL XF Level 3 comebacks are impressive, I simply disagreed with the notion that NONE were impressive.
Edit: I have already made clear that I think XF is problematic in that it favors certain characters and styles over others. Similarly, I think it is possible that it may be too strong, although I am not sure of this yet. However, I think the fundamental idea behind XF is a good one; that is my ultimate claim. I do not think the game would necessarily be better off without XF.
oh shit sirlin quotes bringing out the big guns…and i dont think xfactor is a bad idea either, in fact i quite like it, just not in its current, ridiculously over-the-top state
I agree with you in principle, but I don’t think Starcraft is an apropos comparison. Even if you’re losing very badly, you can still do basically all the same things that you could from the start of the game. It’s similar to more traditional fighting games in that some options become inviable. If you try to play standard, you’ll eventually lose. You have to take a risk to be able to get ahead. That’s part of what an advantage is.
I’m not sure how you would design a mechanic than can let you get the upper hand, without giving you a better shot at getting more advantages down the line.
This is like a story where the hero is getting his ass beat down to the bottom of the bucket and there’s no hope, no allies, no nothing; except the “once per season power-up”. It’s still supposed to look like the hero has to fight super hard to win (even though he’s rocking afterburners now) but in reality he’s cleaning house because the hero ( e.g. the underdog) has to win. Because he’s the hero. But did the villain use his “once per season power-up” already and curb stomp the hero (leading into the aforementioned scenario) or is the villain just that skillful and bad ass; or is he saving it for the last episode and giving us a tragic ending by using his power-up after the hero’s power-up thereby creating a hopeless situation for the hero. Unless the hero has ridiculous skill and then surmounts the villain. Or are the roles reversed?
This is the story of X-Factor, it’s a whole lot of “if/then”. But to Capcom; this is a hype machine; ahem sorry, “comeback mechanic”. Seriously listen to the commentary of these past tourneys with MvC3; it revolves around meter-management and who popped X-Factor when and how well they utilized it.
The story of X-Factor indeed.
so phoenix is the hero…bullshit
Well, no. (well according to Capcom, yes) The hero is the underdog (without a power-up) who has been getting sliced up, shit’s hit the fan, the check’s in the mail. Like Justin Wong’s “never give up” moment. That match was over, clear as day. No last minute power-ups or deus ex machinas or miracles in sight; it required the hero (Justin in this case) to rise above seemingly insurmountable odds and really get to work. It’s like classical theatre, the hero is in the eyes of the audience; more than ought it happens to be that underdog who has to really pull up on their bootstraps and make it happen. It’s relate-able, that’s what makes it so hype. You think you can be the hero, rising up and taking names. It’s too easy to be the villain or be perceived as such when you’re clearly dominating; it’s not that interesting and the majority of the audience can’t relate. But when both parties have a free power-up that’s just there, no strings attached (aside from the fact that the opposition has it too, i.e. fair) the lines get blurred. Who are you considering the hero or the villain then when a “never give up moment” isn’t really that genuine anymore?
This mostly has to do with the overall lifespan of the game as a whole. Don’t you think the audience will get tired of seeing over the top WTF’d-ness? The drama and the hype seems at a lesser state when there’s two nukes on the table.
Tweaks i believe
V.Joe
~More range on his normals or atleast give him back his OTG RHK
~honestly I want his Forward RHK from TvC I really dont like his downward 1
~Make Slow a grab or atleast an OTG
~Bombs honestly dont change thanks to the trick I learned
Hsien-ko
~Buffs ASAP
Wesker
~health nerf 1’100’000 > to atleast 1’000’000
Wolverine
~Divekick hitbox normalized
~Berserker slash a little more punishable its just way to fast
Cpt.America
~Charging Star and his Upper make those more safe
~Make his Flips safer or atleast make it so i can actually block when im attacked
~Final Justice needs some invince
Chris
~Grenade launcher Ice Grenade freezes the enemy where they stand instead of freeze and fall
~his Sweep HC OTG’s isnt canceled if an OTG was used to start the combo
~Prone hits low
~Landmine OTG on contact
Arthur
~Projectiles a little bit stronger
~Shield Deflect a counter
~Give Arthur Triple Jump as mobility
~Golden Armor soft knockdown and duration increased
*I wish it would just make him go back to regular armor
Chun-Li
~Fix Lightning Legs Hitbox
~Kikosho OTG but not LL cancelable
Phoenix
~Hp Boost fom 420k-600 to actually survive
~H Fireball homing range decrease
~D.Phoenix can not use X-Factor Period
~D.Phoenix HP 750k
~D.Phoenix no longer feather projectiles
~D.Phoenix fireballs are beams instead
~D.Phoenix HP no longer decreases or atleast slower
Sentinel
~HP boost to 1’000’000
~ H beams no longer hyper cancelable and slower startup like MvC2
~ Sentinel Force Faster
~Hyper Sentinel Force Canceled on Hit but it is faster
~Plasma Storm Invince Startup
~ Damage lowered a little bit
~Hyper Sentinel Force aimable
~Sentinel Force Light homing for ground
~Sentinel Force Heavy homing for anti-air
Taskmaster
~Aim Master Damage decrease not drastic
~Counter Low can HC
~increase HC Counter Damage
Thor
~Mighty Thunder Tad Bit Faster and Invince
~Mighty Hurricane Recovery if whiffed
~His normals need a little bit more speed
~Projectile needs faster startup it can be ducked and can barely chip
Akuma
~H Tatsu can not link into another H Tatsu
~More ground bounce on his OTG
~keep the normals the way they are
Dante
~tone down his hitbox on normals a little
X-Factor keep it atleast at lvl 2 or make it lvl 1 to everyone except DP but increase the time depending on how much teammates are still alive and give the needed buffs
Ex. Heavy Hitters - Speed/Armor
P.S. Some of these can be accepted as Jokes
I don’t think I mentioned it in this thread but X-Factor is probably fixed with two easy tweaks.
- Shorten the duration at all levels.
- X-Factor gives either a character specific damage boost OR it limits the minimum damage scaling. Having both is where retardo damage comes from.
yo this post is dedicated to all of those who are watching the 8otb stream right now
Stop being so aggressive. Calling people ignorant and forcing your opinions on which games are good or bad is just discouraging other people to post. Grow up.
yeah, things were a lot better in the early 2000s where only knowledgeable players posted and everyone else was made fun of and run out. now any jabroni can post and have their opinion legitimized without any repercussions