MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Waiting until you have good information to do something is circular logic because it implies that it will be beneficial to do so, when you have no way of confirming this. That’s what circular logic is. I have an understanding of its meaning. You don’t. If you weren’t making baseless statements, I wouldn’t be pointing them out to you.

If you were to say “waiting in the case of putting a cake in the oven will have delicious results because the cake will be cooked, increasing its overall flavor”. That applies.

WoW, I totally agree. CapAm has this easy infinite, it makes him so broken.
Thor zoned me out with his stupid beam, so powerful.
Joe’s smaller than Ammy… he’s so hard to hit and can combo me to no end.
Ryu owned my assists by pressing random hyper.
Felicia’s helper is so OP. You can’t even hit away and she can control when it hits overhead!
I want all characters to have 5-5 matchups. Then MvC3 will be the bestest game ever.

/end sarcasm but potential future.

SeewhatIdidthere. Now I just need to convince JWong to post that and everyone will agree.
-Inb4 Adon and MvC3 is all about Sentinel.

Uhh… no, that’s not circular logic, that’s an opinion. Circular logic is essentially using a rephrasing of an argument to prove an argument. Whereas the argument here is simply that I feel that there’s no strong benefit in making changes this early as opposed to waiting for more information to be gathered.

in that case “what if” scenarios are as horseshit as claiming that MvC2 would have still evolved and people would still if there was balancing, you’re only assuming , so you’re not really proving anything by saying that.

Metagame doesn’t occur if the game constantly changes. People will simply play and discover things but they will have to play and discover things again and will not have more options available to them because balance doesn’t mean necessarily adding more options and keeping the rest of the game as it is.

the alternate path is a useless discussion since Capcom is the only one that can decide about that , especially when you’re the one deciding that another path would be actually more interesting , based on what?

so once again , what does balancing means to you?

this needs to be done in two weeks.

If this patch was merely a delayed bug fix that wasn’t able to be fixed pre-launch (which is easily possible and probably the case) and was not a “knee-jerk” reaction, then most people’s concerns would be alleviated. It is much easier to flip shit and over react if you are retarded; though, so I am neither surprised nor confused by SRK’s reaction.

Stay retarded, SRK.

Hugh Mad.

Less frequent changes saves money, plus you can fix more things at once. From a business standpoint, it seems best to wait and see and correct as many things as possible in one swipe.

I’m not sure how more evidence doesn’t increase the likelyhood of making the correct change than immediate patches.

Alright look guys…this shit is getting REALLY STUPID.

If you guys wanna talk about what patches do to fighting games in general…MAKE ANOTHER THREAD. The way you guys are going up and down about logic and nonsensical it really could just have its own thread. Don’t derp it up in here with that shit. I’m still trying to figure out if Dante has any disadvantages and I never will if you guys keep blowing it up with this argument that stemmed from some character getting a blind thoughtless nerf.

Let’s keep this shit on topic or I’ma start PMing mods to clean it up.

His combos are too damn long.

Dante- can be zoned out, teleport predictable to punish, flashy combos lasting a while but not stellar damage.
Minimal mixup potential, imo.

I don’t think we’ve had enough thread-shitting about circular logic yet.

Dante is really overpowered, just look at that moveslist! Unbeatable unless you are Justin Wong, I think that calls for some action.

On a serious note though, maybe Dante’s shit should scale harder, that would make up for all his tools and his ridiculous meter building. Deterioration, wru?

LMAO. Word. You said it better than anyone else. Only true Sent’s will remain!!!

Stop replying to miez he’s trolling you at this point.

You called?

Are yall really still talking about this…? Back on topic, next couple off topic poster know what they get for free.

My completely worthless thoughts, but why the fuck not:
Ratings- Top, high, middle, low, bottom, dunno. First one is where i think they are, and second is where they could end up.
Shuma/jill- no clue

Wesker-Point: High/mid.
I think he’s really well rounded but i feel that his approach is tricky, and very difficult without assists. His low assist is awesome and his others actually aren’t that bad either.

Chris- dunno/low. I really think it’ll be awhile yet before we see zoning teams, if at all. It’s possible they’re just too flawed to work in the new game, but i fee like it took awhile before people were tapping spirals potential(dunno. wasn’t paying attention to MvC2 early in its life). Either way if they do work i think his biggest flaw is he just doesn’t zone that well, and doesn’t get that much damage off of any situation. Likewise for his assists. His subpar hypers don’t help.

Doom-Top/high. Dude is rocking a lot right now. Great assists(ALL OF THEM), builds meter, very good combos, decent zoning, decent mobility. Only reason i’m not sure he’s top is that while he hurts like hell when he hits, he still has trouble getting the hits.

Dorm-Mid/high. His assists are…ok. They do what they need to but nothing like dooms. His damage is pretty fucking amazing with meter, and for someone who zones so well he can VERY quickly suddenly get in your face and start a nasty combo. Still think he’s evolving, but again the lack of super viable zoning hurts him a bit.

Akuma-High. It’s pretty standard akuma. Do anything, but have paper thin health. I could see him being top, but for now i think his approach isn’t quite strong enough to justify it.

Tron-High/mid. One of if not the best assist in the game. No questions. Her approach is single minded and requires assists, but the payoff on hit is TREMENDOUS. Probably will never be top, but always a solid pick.

Zero-mid/high. Zero baffles me a little bit, but he’s basically a unique rushdown with the ability to zone. Being able to DHC trick helps, but i don’t see his pressure as so strong that he’d easily replace other rushdowns. Especially with his meh assists.

Skrull-Fuck if i know. Seriously i still don’t quite get how this guy is supposed to be played. I’ll assume low for now but dear god i just cannot figure out what his gameplan should be. Like chris and the zoners i think he needs more time and love. His assist really do seem pretty good.

MODOK-Dunno/mid? Like chris he’s a zoner, and the most unique one in the entire game. I really think it’ll be awhile before we start seeing MODOK to his full potential, but i’m not sure it’ll be enough in the end. His assists are better than chris’s but his hypers have similar problems. 2 are meh and the 3rd is terrible unless you hit with cubes.

Task-High/mid. High with potential to fall. His damage is fucking insane, but he’s SOO linear on approach. He’s got what he needs to get in and do what needs to be done, but i just wonder if eventually it won’t be enough. His assist seem okish, but vert arrow does stand out.

Viper-Dunno/mid. I’ve really not seen viper play since the game launched, hence the dunno. I’d guess mid because her rushdown seems pretty nasty, but her hypers don’t mesh too well and i don’t see her getting in that well. Honestly i’d say wildcard on her. She does have an overhead assist, but it seems worse than all the lows that can otg. Especially when so many people can do crazy overheads.

Chun-low/high. Chun was everywhere at the start and now we don’t see her that much it seems. That said i think that once people give her a chance again and the tops get figured out i think she’s got some nice potential. It all hinges on if she can get in. Her legs assist i still think is one of the better ones.

Ryu- mid/high. He’s seen some tourney wins i believe and i think he’s less useless than people were expecting. His beam is just solid and that’s almost enough on its own. Assist wise he seems only ok.

Cap- mid/high. That infinite helped him a lot. His dmg without assists otherwise seems meh, especially in corner. This is a problem since i don’t think his approach or assists are anything good enough to justify this.

thor- low/dunno. Yeah everyone thinks he’s crap right now, but i feel like he might have something yet. His OTG assist is at least ok and he’s pretty tanky. I feel like his gamestyle is one that either works or doesn’t, but it’s too early to determine if it’s completely failed yet.

Ironman-mid/high. Decent assists, pretty good point. Basic airdash and flight games, but his only real issue is dmg problems. Beam hypers are ok, and his level 3 is pretty awesome.

trish-mid/high. I think she’s still got a TON of potential that’s yet to be used. She’s a pretty decent all rounder and her trap assist is unique enough to warrant consideration on its own. Her only real issue seems to be dmg.

Dante-High/top. Dante’s stayed solid basically since launch, and i only think he’ll get crazier. Commando assist on someone that can actually do things on point is pretty crazy. He’s just such a jack of all trades. Only thing stopping him from being top is his rushdown being a little flakey, but i have no doubt he’s going to stick around.

Spider-low/high. Honestly he’s got really subpar assists, and his dmg just doesn’t seem to be enough. His mobility is great and getting in doesn’t seem too hard, but he lacks dmg compared to others. That said if people find a way around that i could see him jumping.

Storm- High/top. She’s still really damn good. DHC trick makes her better, still has good assists, still can combo and zone, and hail is still one of the better supers in the game. Fragile but i don’t see her going anywhere but up.

Ama-High/top. This dog has basically no downsides other than health. It’s akuma pt 2. Great assists, amazing hypers, awesome combos. It’s only her health holding her back. And having an awesome match vs sent certainly helps.

Spencer- High/mid. I thought spencer sucked, then i saw what he was capable of. As people get better though i think he might fall again. Right now the DHC trick is HUGE in helping him put out insane dmg, but without meter i think he has trouble getting in.

Joe-low/mid. I just don’t see what is supposed to be going on with joe. He’s like an awkward zoner who’s supposed to combo. His slow is completely inferior to ama, his zoning is risky and odd, his combo’s dont seem that great, and his other meter options are nothing to write home about. It’s not that i feel i don’t get joe. I feel like i get it, and i’m not impressed. Here’s hoping i’m wrong.

Wolvie-High/top. Subpar assists but we’ve all seen what he can do on point, and it hurts. He’s just solid all around and it’s why i think he’s going to stay around in a game where so many people have strange flaws.

Deadpool-low/high. I think he’s really underrated right now, and benefits more from the DHC trick than almost anyone else. He can zone and combo and i think he can do both well enough that he does a good job on the all rounder role for a team.

Mags-High/top. Meter building combo maniac. Oh and Gravity squeeze and disruptor. It’s mags in a nutshell. Nice assists don’t hurt either. His only real flaws are paper thin health and his lvl1 hypers not being quite as potent as they were.

Hsien-ko-mid/dunno. Maybe even high simply because holy hell pendulum assist. That said i really don’t get her on point game, and am just not sure if it’s effective enough. Even though her assist is awesome i’m not sure it’s Cap Com awesome in this game. I’m waiting to see how her point game develops because right now most teams that run her just focus on getting armor on her and assisting, and i think they’re sleeping on her actual usage, even if it’s not perfect.

Morrigan-High/dunno. I’ve just given up trying to understand morrigan. I thought she had everything she needed to suck except an awesome meter building assist, but then it turns out the bitch can zone and rush down decently, and then like a god for 1 meter. That said it seems that other than niche circumstances her powerup and lvl 3 are the only things worth wasting meter on.

felicia-high/mid. I wasn’t that surprised to see justin wrecking face with her and i think she’s got everything she needs to be a scary sight and work the game she’s supposed to have. That said i still feel her gameplan has some serious flaws and i’m not sure if she can stick around as the game goes on.

x23-mid/high. She’s got a great low assist and on point i think she’s got an awesome game. The lvl 3 being unstoppable in some scenarios is a niche gimmick, but it’s a damn nice one. Only thing stopping her is a lack of approach options solo, and even then she’s not bad at all.

phoneix-High/dunno. I really could see phoneix going anywhere. As she is she’s pretty damn good, but i think poorly used sometimes. I also think the lack of people whoring out snap vs her is a huge mistake. Everyone cites the loss in dmg and meter that you have to use when you snap her, but if you do and touch her ONCE she is dead. I really don’t know if she’ll survive people trying to adapt to her. I know in my household x-23 sees play simply because with 4 bars and x factor she can snap the point and instagib phoenix, but god knows that’s not tourney viable. Still i think strats based on snapping her in and setting up nasty mixup might really change her viability.

sent-High/dunno. I really think sent was overrated. He might very well have been the best in the game, but i don’t think the margin by which he surpassed others was all that high, and i’m even willing to believe he would’ve wound up middle or bottom of the higher tiers. With the health nerf…i could honestly see him falling out of use. He’s already got some problem matchups and his most common assist leaves him out there to be beaten on. His dmg with meter is still insane though.

Arthur-dunno/high. I think of all the zoners with chris’s problems arthur has the biggest chance of being a real threat. He’s got great assists, amazing hypers, and a really nice zoning game. If he does happen to hit you he can turn it into decent dmg, and for someone who basically can’t move for shit i think he does ok up close. I feel like he just dies without assists though.

Haggar-mid/high. Double lariat is amazing and people underestimate his point game. It’s all about the pipe and pain right now, but i think he’s really got enough to be more than a cap com.

Hulk-mid/dunno. I just don’t get hulk. He feels like a heavy hitting zoner. His assists are pretty awesome at least, but i just don’t know what to think about his point game.

She-hulk-Dunno. I don’t get she hulk. I’m not even going to guess. She’s got so much odd stuff that COULD be useful or COULD be amazing and i have no idea whats going to stick around.

Revised Tiers (with everyone sorry about that)

God- Ammy (who has a good matchup) Dr. Doom (getting better it seems by the second)

Demi-God- Wolverine Akuma Magneto Dante

Damn Good tier Storm Dormammu Wesker Tron Zero Taskmaster She-Hulk Iron-Man Phoenix

Solid+tier Sentinel (still dangerous still good.) Spencer Super-skrull Deadpool Haggar (IMHO) Spider-man

Solid tier Trish C. Viper Chun-li Ryu(for now) Arthur Felicia(for now) Morrigan Hsien-ko Arthur(IMHO flame away) X-23 Hulk Captian America

Needs help tier. Thor V. Joe Chris

WTF tier (MODOK
ew char tier) MODOK Shuma-gorath Jill

What’s wrong with MODOK? I’ve never seem a character so well equip to control the screen…besides Dante.

I still think Capcom should nerf that smug bastard.

He meant he didn’t know where to put him I think.

Also I think Ammy isn’t as good as people think she is, yes she can zone well in the 22C stance but nothing that one or two right guesses can’t get past with not much risk, and I can’t see how she has good mixup in the 22A stance without an Akuma assist or something similar. She has that low profile that can go under stuff which is cool but she also has low HP as well, I’d put her in A tier not S tier like most people are.

But if anyone wants to tell me some good stuff about Ammy then please do.

Low profile, good zoning with bead stance, I disagree that it’s easy to get in on her, her zoning is top notch since she can stand/duck under a lot of projectiles and overpower quite a few as well. 45 degree zoning from the ground is huge. Plus she’s quick and has that low profile which helps her play runaway. Her mixups aren’t god tier, but they’re solid enough to be threatening in disc. Round that out with a really good assist for chip/lockdown/combos and you have a great overall package…

On the downsides, she has low health, but so what? She’s getting killed in two combos like everyone else, it’s not a big deal for her, and her speed and profile definitely give her a lot of extra survivability

People need to stop abusing teleport. When used sparingly and with assist cover I think it would be much more effective. Meter gain regardless of combo damage seems to be very, very good. Agree with mixup issues due to slower moveset.