Umm well mikez was playing sak at ffa and vs me and a friend and he didnt’ play her first hehe. He didn’t fuck up the rest of the stuff like the teleport umm and you can block right out of it and if you’re being rushed you can usually jump out of anything. Anyways there are stuff you can do ask mikez lol
damnit you bastard those are all top tier characters. first off, doom is immobile when he does his rocks. who the hell ever uses rocks when on point? i’m not talking about the best assist projectile here. second off, cable uses a beam, not a projectile. also, he too is immobile when he does a viper beam, which makes him pretty vulnerable. spiral can kinda move and throw knives at the same time. but the bottom line is, sonic boom has awesome recovery time, which lets you do whatever you want after you throw one, so it is the best projectile EVER. not assist, not beam. projectile. ass.
ps a lot of stuff doesnt DHC into hailstorm if you want to get technical.
either pls stop hating on the all american hero.
yeah unfortunately, guile doesnt really have any high damaging combos that i know of. maybe someone who is a pro with this all american hero can help me out here. he has your basic air combo which ends in a flashkick, and a short short super that can dhc into other stuff. not a lot to work with. but hey, air flashkick is AWESOME.
btw higher-jin i did see your excellent charlie combo vid so i see that charlie has lots of high damage combos.
but i still hate him because his hair cut sucks. i dont think i have anything else really meaningful to contribute to the discussion, so ill just wait for GD to come back online.
edit: wait WHOA sabertooth better than guile? WHAT DOES SAbERTOOTH POSSIBLY POSSESS? He was completely nerfed from xmen vs sf. how does that guy even do any damage? HOW i ask you HOW?
I’m not going to say Sabretooth is definitely “better” than Guile, but I wouldn’t make a statement one way or the other unless I knew everything he had to offer to a squad. I use him occasionally, and the alpha assist isn’t too shabby at all IMO.
Bagging on characters you don’t really know &/or have never seen played to full potential is worth about as much as a warm cup of pi$$. At least provide something solid about why he sucks, if you’re convinced that is the case. If there’s a guru out there on said character, I’m sure he’ll be happy to correct any inaccuracies.
That’s what fosters fruitful discussion and learning, which is what all this is ultimately about.
I had a 5 way mix up worked out but I later found it had a hole in it, I might take him down some but I still think he’s pretty good.
He has:
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A good dash under cross up defense in his j. rh
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Can build great meter with jumping back rh x 2 (he has a glitch where he gets a extra action in normal jump mode everytime he does a kick) you can’t do it all the time but it’s still helpful and you can also use it to make them come after you and if you’re backed up by tronne you have a sporting chance to come out on top as far as damage goes.
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If he can land a combo he can get ALOT of damage with a opportunity to reset afterwards
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His throw gives him good meter and is complimented by his fast walking speed. His throw also sets up decent damage on hit and a mix up if they roll.
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His projectile assist is very useful for trapping purposes and recovers while the opponent is still in block stun from it at certain distances, thus making it harder to punish and able to set up other assists or even a pseudo trap by keeping them in block stun with your point while calling sabre-b out again. Another thing about it is that each bullet breaks super armor.
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His expansion assist is useful when combined with instant overheads
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His launch assist can be used as a (mostly) safe alpha counter.
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You can use block stun from assists to call birdie for extra chip damage and set up pressure or possibly a high-low fake
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Hyper Birdie for chip - It’s mostly safe against many characters at full screen distance.
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He has the instant recovery birdie glitch: call any strenght birdie then THC (you have to have a assist that gives you the birdie hyper combo) you will then recover immediately if you are alone but if you have team mates you will only be able to attack until after they recover.
A few setups:
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Incoming character, guarenteed
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They try to super jump away from you to run away you can try to time it so they land into birdie bullets and then you THC
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Sweep set ups (rollable/escapable)
There may be a few others but it’s hard to set up because you can’t use a assist unless they:
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have enough block stun to let birdie connect
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Leave with enough time for you to thc while birdie is still on the screen (this is crucial because you cannot thc while the assist is on the screen)
Here are a few uses:
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Mix ups (downright deadly with unblockable set ups with assists like wolverine v, juggernaut v, chunli v, ect.) or just high low fakes
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Extra chip (Jump over them with doom b, and I think you can do, beserker claw, call lk birdie, berserker claw (birdie’s bullets can cover your recovery in certain parts of the screen if you’re not sure then just don’t do the last beserker claw and go for a mix up or something, each beserker claw does 2 damage)
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You can use his hyperbirdie THC to make certain unsafe supers safer. You can even make ken’s shoryureppa safe and I think it might be able to make ironman’s proton cannon safe (but i think ironman has to start the THC in order for it to work right). Keep in mind NOT ahvb safe but alot less punishable and unpunishable to many.
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Corner infinite that should be able to lead to 100% damage or close to it and can be done off his throw.
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Good DHCs (mainly hyper birdie for block damage, and weapon x as a second DHC maybe even a third dhc)
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Instant Overhead on tall characters (team steroids, thanos, and tronne) - he can do a instant overhead roundhouse + tronne V then do another rh on the way down and combo off of it for 80+ damage on sent and near 120+ on tronne. Even on people he can’t instant overhead he can sometimes make it hard for people to jump by jumping rh/lk spamming over their head+ assists (of course you have to watch out for aaa)
But sabretooth does have some problems mainly in the air. He has mainly a air throw or a heavy punch (or j. lp, hp, hk (only comboes when you are right next to them and under them) for a air to air confrontation. He has a wall jump (if you hold up+foward he’ll do one that doesn’t go foward very much but if you hold down+foward he’ll go foward more) but he has no air specials or supers. He also has no high low game even though his j. rh can be used earlier than most other character’s jump ins it’s hardly useful.
edit: here’s something neat: c. lk, standing mp + doom, hp wild fang (makes the screen scroll) lk when he’s pushed into you so there is no hole when doom throws the rocks, call lk birdie.
edit: here’s another weird thing: Corner Guard break into infinite:
Here’s the set up i used on the computer on all guard: Hp throw, sweep, snap out
then call hk birdie, (wait a little) jump foward lp, get the 2 last bullets to hit and do a wild fang off of that. If you do it too early only one bullet will connect and you won’t connect the wild fang. Also if it connects you may want to walk back a little bit because if you are too close to the opponent you’ll crossover to the other side after one rep of the infinite.
A easier guard break is probably call lk birdie, jump up foward lp, land (they bounce off one of the bullets) launch.
Higher Jin: you’re a total fool. Your ranking is all jacked up and biased towards sabertooth. Sabertooth is ASS. He cant do anything special and gets owned for free by anything. I dont know how you put ken and gambit so low.
First off you don’t need to call me a total fool and you don’t need to be insulting you can just state your opinion.
In the original thread I even said that was personal opinion and I welcomed people to not only post their own tier lists but to state their opinions on mine. However, not only did you insult me you didn’t even give any reasons other than saying Sabretooth sucks and gets owned for free while gambit and ken are too low.
This is how I see it you can bring up your own points and strategies you use with them:
Gambit:
Good:
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Lp cajun slash, HIGH priority, half screen distance, pretty safe on block, can be used to cover assists.
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Super jump, air kinetic card. You usually just throw 1, it’s risky otherwise.
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Kinetic card xxx cajun explosion - ok chip
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High priority launch and high priority j. hp
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Good DHCs
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Ok throw set, one can combo into certain assists the other is mashable
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2 frame lps and standing lk but you’ll probably use c. lk despite it being 5 frames
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Cajun Strike, I personally use this to mix things up it’s not bad.
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Once the super flash is there the cajun explosion will happen and cannot be negated
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Can use kinetic cards to cover assists and zone (can zone with trick cards aswell)
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Projectile assist (dead weight) and cajun slash (pseudo ground dp) assist are pretty good
Bad:
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Cajun explosion does too little chip for my taste and you need to use hp kinetic card for it to combo should it hit otherwise they are likely to be able to roll out or it might even miss. Even if it hits OTG it sometimes does only a portion of it’s usual damage.
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C. lk is 5 frames but has good range at least.
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Can’t combo into any of his supers for full damage without a assist off of a normal. This really hurts him IMO.
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No air dash, he has kinetic cards to alter his decension, and sabretooth has a wall jump that goes 2 ways cards are better but cards fall short compared to air options of other characters in the game aswell
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no high low game, even if he did have one he can’t combo into his supers for good damage and usually just does a normal air combo or has to rely on assist combo.
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Doesn’t build enough meter unless there is some tactic i’m missing
Overall he seems like a second rate cyclops with a hail stormish super that hardly does enough chip. If he could practically combo into his supers he’d be ALOT better IMO. He has a good zoning game but doesn’t do enough chip. He can’t chip and he can’t do enough damage when he hits you. Is there something I’m missing tho because if there is I’d be happy to learn.
Ken, his best combo besides hurricane kick comboes is probably:
c. lk, standing hp, hp hadouken xxx shoryureppa
my main reasons for ranking him so low despite his AAA and overall invincibility on point.
- Dash is too slow, if it was faster he’d be better so he might be able to work out some kind of cross up roll mix up but it’s hard for him to get in your face…this is horrible for a pixie that has slow normals, short range on his launcher where his big damage comes from, and no high low game even when he gets close to you. If he had a better dash and a longer range launcher many of these problems would be fixed IMO. He’d be able to perhaps get in range do a roll mix up and c. lk you immediately after he rolls (his rolls travel different distances so you can make it so in certain positions one roll crosses up and one doesn’t)
On top of this he has no safe chip either. Usually you’ll have a opportunity to land a combo off a random move that connects but you can’t land your launcher because it requires such strict positioning (pretty much right in your face which makes most jump ins a no no). I like using up+hk, dash c. lk, c. hp hurricane kick combo and the up+hk also crosses up but they are still hard to land and usually when you are in the air you may do a j. hp xxx hurricane kick instead. Most people use j. hp but j. u+hk has extra long hit stun which lets you dash in and combo into launcher more reliably, even then his dash is slow so there will be times where even when you dash you are just far enough so it will barely whiff.
yes his assist is good solely because of the invincibility but I take his point game into account too which is not that great. He is constantly given the worst version of the shoto normals and again he’s someone that needs to be in your face yet he has a bad dash even by low tier standards. On the bright side if he’s push blocked he can gain distance by cancelling a normal into a command roll. Ryu and sakura are the best shotos and even they have alot of issues, I used to think ken was the overall shoto that had it better than the others, but that dash is horrible.
The Low Tier Rankings List (this is just personal opinion if you feel you want to correct me go ahead). Not in any specific order.
Tier 1
–Top–
Baby Bonnie Hood
Rogue
Dhalsim
Juggernaut (with glitch)
War Machine
Ruby Heart
Cammy
Amingo
–Middle–
Omega Red (No Doom)
Megaman
Morrigan
Ice Man
Strider (NO DOOM!)
Silver Samurai
Son Son
Sakura
Tier 2
–Top–
Colossus
Sabretooth
Marrow
Wolverines
Shuma-Gorath
Hulk
Captain America
–Middle–
Charlie
Spiderman
Jill
Hayato
Chun Li
Bison
–Low–
Guile (he could be bumped to middle even just for his good match against sentinel)
Akuma
Ken
Ryu
Thanos
Gambit
Tier 3
–Top–
Dan
Zangief
Servbot
Jin
–Low–
Roll
well maybe if you would have explained that my projectiles didnt count i wouldnt have posted. sorry dood.
So ken is ranked shitty because his dash sucks?? You’re an idiot.
Could you give me some ken tips then? I play him and it’s pretty hard to do shit with him.
It’s not just because his dash sucks, but let’s face it he needs to get close and most of his methods of doing so suck:
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J. Hp xxx hurricane kick. I’ve been beaten out by mags j. lk while the hurricane kick was already out, it has vulnerable spots and I’m still unsure of it’s actual priority. Sure you can use it sparringly but it still isn’t that great overall.
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Dash, He needs this because he’s a rush down character. He needs to get in your face and it’s hard to do this without a good dash. He has what has to be among one of the worst dashes in the game and for a character that’s almost purely a pixie that has got to kill alot of his effectiveness.
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He doesn’t have much else other than AAA and invincibility. It’s too bad shippu isn’t a safe super cuz it would help some. He can’t chip you and he can’t get close to you so he can’t pressure you that well.
Ken can still function but not nearly at the capacity that he should. Many low tier characters at least have strenghts that are supported by their other abilities while Ken is a pixie with below average means to get in.
How do you play him?
^ Nah, you’re the idiot, KRASH.
I say guile > charlie, due to the fact that guile has a better air game and i think he does better against Sent than charlie. That’s a big factor IMO. Charlie is just better as a ground fighter compared to Guile, but that’s not saying that guile doesn’t do well as a ground fighter. He does. Guile also has a better air game. His Jump fierces are also great and amazing in priority… i think it breaks sents armor too.
As for the list, i would put Samurai over OR. I mean it. a full level Samurai = cable with a sword. The guy will kill your assist the second you leave it vulnerable. There is just so much SS has that Omega doesn’t, and i honestly can’t understand why OR is above SS, and why no one bothered to justify it. So I will. Please, reply to me with real reasons why you think OR > SS.
Here’s why SS > OR.
SS has better supers, while on the other hand you have OR who has crap supers. both of OR’s supers have average startups, and you can’t combo it with assists. His coil super (whatever it’s called) is weird as hell in terms of damage (open and chip) the opponent needs to be up close in order for it to be satisifying, and to tell you the truth the satisfaction of the damage (open or chiped - even up close) aint all that much of a big deal. In other words, OR’s “Omega Destroyer” is unreliable. It’s easy as hell to punish, all you need to do is take the last hit of the coils -> roll to catch up before he recovers -> then beat the shit out of him. Done. Samurai, unlike OR, is equipped with massive damage (open and blocked) and his supers are far usemful than the majority. His hee-man super is an assist killer. Period. And it doesn’t have any major lag to worry about. It’s also simple as hell to connect; just to c.lk’s and that’s it! His ninja star super also does massive block damage, pin the opponent in the corner with Doom and throw out them ninja stars and watch how much that takes. So there, SS >> OR.
I also Say Iceman and Gambit over strider (no doom) possibly, Iceman deserves to be at the highest rank there, jin. His Air supers give out heavy damage, he doesn’t take block damage from the majority of moves in the game; Icebeams eat up assists better than most projectiles i know of; chip damage; and a great hit box with the c. RH; and he isn’t as complexed to use compared to strider w/c means: little on the error ratio.
You call me an idiot then say Gambit is better than Strider without doom?
Thats pretty funny.
One Combo and Strider is basically dead my friend.
That’s called an opinion. Idiot. Strider being over gambit is also a debate. I see gambit over strider due to the fact taht Gambit provides more to a team then strider can possibly give. Assist or point. Gambit can build meter and connect a DHC after a super, in w/c strider would need a character that provides frame kill (i.e. Ironman) to connect a DHC after a super. Gambit also has good reach, priority, and poking game (not saying it’s better than strider’s) so he sill has great tools in a battle.
They should have a sep cab in Evo 05 where certain chars are banned i.e Mag, storm, maybe sent and cable.
Lets get back to the day when peeps didn’t know top tier chars and I think watching MVC2 will be a lot more fun
Amingo + Psylocke AA = ghetto Magneto rushdown
Amen to that. I personally see Ken to be overrated, i think Ryu > Akuma > ken and i don’t need to provide reasons why because you already did.
The only thing ken has is the hurricane glitch, that’s it. But why is that such a big deal if pulling off a lauch is unlikely to happen. Ken is a rush down character, and sorry but he sucks at it. Ryu on the other hand has more tools to rely on. I put Ryu over akuma just because of Akuma’s vitality, he just dies to fast. Even at the level 1 damage settings, he just can’t survive to long. Ryu has ok vitality, better tools and a better air special (that’s an opinion though).
top low tiers imo are: omega, ironman/W.M.,blackheart, juggy, cammy. as for Silver Sam being better than omega is kinda insulting. a good omega will rape Sam any day of the week.
Ey! Ey! Ey! Ey!!!
I actually am actually impressed by your post, good job!:tup:
I think Venom, Sakura, and Megaman especially is overlooked. In retrospect Megaman really has no overwhelming flaws that can be taken advantage of by the low tiers in the “higher tier” section.
Megaman can combo into is supers, as a highly damaging Mega Buster, excellent zoning and air supers which a lot of low tiers have as a luxury. Serious I’ve been able to get 20+ winstreaks with MM/Sent/Cap; with Megaman OCVing against decent MSPs and crazy stuff.
Jump in FP/HK, C.LK, Call Capcom AAA S.HK, SJ.LP, Capcom hits SJ.LK xx Hyper Megaman DHC into HSF, Launch AC into RP.:bgrin:
Venom also is overlooked. He can work well with Sent, Doom, and Cyke and can setup many supers with Venom Web from his lk Venom Rush. His Jab Venom Fang is one of my favorite move because it can’t be punished is blocked and chips like a mofo. He also has some neat Airdash crossups and his HK can be comboed in an AC in the corner for mucho damage.
Last but not least his DF launcher has excellent speed and priority.
Plus he say “I’ll eat your Brains!!!”
:pleased:
can you supply a better argument?