I know my posts seem mean spirited and downright cynical, but I’m actually a softie at heart. 
Maybe I should’ve called this thread “Joe Zaza rants and raves” or “Joe Zaza yells at everyone.” Yeah… that would’ve gotten a lot of attention. :rolleyes:
No reallythanks… the attention, the props, the replies… for all of it. As long as people keep posting, I’ll try to keep this thread going… it’s been fun so far…
BTW Joe Zaza, everyone in TX also knows you as the “double wolverine guy” :lol:
Just thought you’d like to know that… since I know you love being known for that 
Sup Joe! I love your double Wolvie team dude, it’s the greatest man. I’ve always been an avid Wolvie player myself and it’s nice to see a pro work a little harder to get recognized. I have a question not reagarding tactics, but about any footage of you at work with Wolvies. I remember seeing some matches on some site a couple months back but the site is down now. Do you have any old/current footage (vids) of you in action?
Wildcat
If he gets hit by a ring or two, is the assist trade in his favor? :eek:
In any case, I don’t like attacking assists with assists unless I have to… I was talking about taking her assist on point with Wolverine. 
Augmint
As the case is with Juggernaut, Wolverine only “loses to Magneto” because Magneto can take off more at a time… if it were a question of who can get a hit easier, I’d say both characters are equally matched. That being said, starting either Wolverine against Magneto is a display of confidence over your opponent’s strategies.
On point, Bonerine is a good character… in some ways, better than Wolverine. Still, I’d rather save his assist for Sentinel than have him torn up by Magneto (who’s more popular as a battery/opener). Furthermore, since I’d rather save Sentinel assist for both Doom and Bonerine, I’d play your team like this:
Doctor Doom B/Sentinel Y/Bonerine Y
…and play it the way I do: as User/Assist/User. (See my reply to Satomiblood for more information.) HOWEVER, if you insist on using the more popular format (Battery/User/Assist), I’d probably play the team like this:
Doctor Doom B/Bonerine Y/Sentinel Y
…and DHC Bonerine in once Doom goes limp.
In my opinon, Doctor Doom assist is good for Sentinel, but less valuable than Bonerine since both of them are useless without baiting/killing your opponent’s anti-air assist first. Overall, I’d say that the most valuable assist on the team is Sentinel’s.
I dunno if anybody else has already, but if not, let me be the first to say: the Wolverines have sucky ass guard breaks. The only one I ever do is this:
In the corner:
[list][*]j. hk [call assist]; (pause), downward Drill Claw (assist connects), follow up (?)[/list]The assist may or may not be able to keep them occupied, but whether it does or not, the follow ups usually suck. :bluu:
I like your team! 
Thanks for replying and good luck.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
im guessing your online,bored as fuck and dont want to get on AIM cuz you have alot of shit to post on here…good man…jus dont drop my TV anymore:lol:
anyways keep up the good work
Deus II
…
“How would you beat Magneto/Sentinel/Cyclops with Sentinel provided you have no anti-air?”
This is theory fighter. Why not ask, “What would you do with Wolverine against Sentinel if you had one pixel of life?” while you’re at it? Because both you and I the answer would be the same whether I was Magneto, Sentinel, Wolverine, or whatever.
You’re not making a case against Wolverine here… and even if you were, I’d say the same thing to everyone that’s challenged his effectivity: the character doesn’t make the difference. Why don’t you come up with something less specific instead of making fun? Trust me… it’d be better for the both of us.
-PEACE-
Appreciate the reply:)
Using Doom first now, starting to use Dooms Hk throw, calling Bonerines slide just before the opponent lands, and reverse tiger knee Air Photon array as an overhead. Nasty!
Just another question about attacking assists using Bonerine. Any rules or things to keep in mind?
Unreallystic
I’ve written it time and time again, but here’s the “Wolverine attack sequence” one more time:
[list][*]d.c. lp -> c. lk -> c. mk -> c. hk XX LP Berserker Barrage[/list]I’m only listing it again for easy reference …and no, it doesn’t combo with either of them. So why is this my primary method of attack?
Well, if you were to use this attack sequence with either Wolverine, you’d prevent your opponent from calling an assist for just about as long as possible… in other words, it keeps you close while keeping them in blockstun. Something that would only be handy if you were Wolverine.
Of course, you would only prevent the assist from hitting if A) you’ve baited it out or B) it’s not an anti-air/invincible assist that’ll hit you off the ground… and without further ado, here’s a list of assists among the top tier repertoire that will/won’t hit Wolverine out of the attack sequence:
[list]Y = will hit
N = won’t hit; Wolverine can snuff these
? = unsure
Akuma: a - N; b - Y; g - Y
Blackheart: a - ?; b - N; g - N
Charlie: a - Y1; b - Y; g - Y1
Cable: a - N; b - Y; g - N
Cammy: a - Y; b - Y; g - N
Captain Commando: a - N; b - Y2; g - ?
Cyclops: a - N; b - Y; g - N
Doctor Doom: a - N; b - Y3; g - N
Guile 1: a - Y; b - Y; g - Y
Iron Man: a - N; b - N; g - N
Juggernaut: a - Y; b - N4; g - ?
Ken: a - Y; b - N; g - Y1
Magneto: a - N; b - N; g - ?
Psylocke: a - Y1; b - ?; g - ?
Sentinel: a - N4; b - ?; g - N4
Spiral: a - N; b - N; g - ?
Storm: a - N; b - ?; g - N
Strider: a - ?; b - ?; g - N
Tron: a - Y; b - N; g - N*2
1st note: Charlie A/Y**/Guile (all)/Ken Y/**Psylocke A - All of these assists can be avoided with either c. lp, c. lk, c. mk (?), and the Claw Slide. In other words, attacks that are low to the ground. Still, since they’re either instant or have invincible start-up, I wouldn’t advise trying to attack against them; bait them out first.
2nd note: Captain Commando B**/**Tron Y - As far as I can tell, both of these can be hit low… however, given the power behind them and the fact that both can appear between links, I wouldn’t advise trying to snuff them. Trust me, you’re better off baiting them out. :bluu:
3rd note: Doctor Doom B - Molecular Shield will hit you out of just about any ground hit, but I have hit it with s. hp, c. hp, c. hk, and Berserker Barrage from time to time. Still, and just as with Commando and Tron, actually timing that can be difficult as assists can appear between links. You’re better off taking out Doom with jump-ins, as I’ll explain later on.
4th note: Juggernaut B**/**Sentinel A/Y - All of these moves have super armor, but can be nipped in the bud. Usually, I’ll snuff them by the time I get to crouching forward in the attack sequence. This is especially handy against Sentinel Y, which, given Wolverine’s low dash, can be dashed in against for free (!).[/list]All in all, any attack that doesn’t have instant start-up or isn’t invincible is susceptible to the attack sequence (meaning: you don’t have to bait them out!!). Still, learning to bait assists is an important part of playing the game that will become invaluable over time. Also, there are several assists that I’m either unsure of or have little experience with… in cases such as those, misinformation, and other notes, all help completing the chart would be welcome! I did the best that I could for the time being, anyway. 
I covered this question in my second reply to totalScrubPower, but I’ve got a few notes in addition to that:
First off, remember that jumping in against Doom assist is handy, but not abusable: as soon as your opponent catches on, he can use his point’s anti-airs (including launchers!) to prevent that from happening. To keep things safe, combine your jump-ins with back or downward Drill Claws and/or anti-air assists.
Secondly, using Ice Beam assist could be safe if both your opponent’s assist and point were being pinned, but if your opponent is a good distance behind his assist when Iceman hits, Doom will take the brunt of the beam and leave the point free to attack. As is the case with most situations like these, this could mean disaster against characters like Storm, Sentinel, and Cable.
In other words, unless your opponent is using Doom to attack, you’re better off taking out Doom with Wolverine by himself.
I define AAAs as assists that can out-prioritize both low and high hits quickly after their appearance… this counts out assists that, although labeled as anti-airs, don’t attack in that manner (e.g. Blackheart B, Doctor Doom B, Iron Man B, etc).
[list][]Type 1: If you want to turtle or attack while playing it safe, you’re better off with relatively invincible anti-airs that provide good opporunities for follow up. The chief examples of these are Akuma Y, Cyclops B, and Psylocke A…[]Type 2: If you’re a little more daring, you could venture towards anti-airs that may be out-prioritized but still give follow up opportunities. A few examples of this are Ken Y, Son Son Y, and Spider-Man Y…[*]Type 3: …and if you’re really gung-ho, you’ll create combos off of anti-airs that’re seemingly impossible to combo, like Cable B, Cammy A, Commando B, or even Ken A! Most of these types are powerful and have their own brand of invincibility, but since possibilities for follow up will be compromised when using them defensively, they can cheat you out! In any case, it’s all a matter of how willing you are to use and discover effective combos.[/list]Incidentally, the types are how I draw the line on using defensive assists. While certain assists can be completely infallible in their defensive capabilities (e.g. Ken A), landing follow ups off of them can become difficult to the point of absurd unless they’re being comboed/used offensively… and since you’re usually using an assist while getting in, that doesn’t happen too often.
Justin Wong introduced/popularized anti-airs of the third kind, while many others attempt using the second kind. All in all, most people play the first kind, which have been used since day one… in any case, whatever style you play should determine what’s best for you. For Wolverine, I usually use type two (but been known to use 1s :bluu: )which I regret, since my ideal is type three.
All right, I’ve been working on this post for a loooooong time now, and I think I should be going… :rolleyes: In all seriousness, hope I helped… and thanks for replying.
-LATE-
Hey Jose…I had just thought of something about your lockdown Wolverines…but I really don’t know how to explain it just yet. You know when you do those multiple jabs and shorts to poke in on your character with Sentinel’s ground assist, I kinda thought of a way to beak out of that little trap/lockdown. It has to do with the guard crush that most people are able to do against Sentinel’s HSF, but with different timing. I can’t test it out at the moment because stupid ass Chip has my DC, but I hope you kinda get the idea. I guess I saw this in your gameplay on Friday night when you were using your double wolverine team. I’ll tell you more in detail about what I’m talking about when I see ya and the timing for it. I really don’t know if all of this talking and brian storming is relevent, but oh wells.
Push da c. forward and sj out before da c. rh comez out. It’z kinda hard cuz Zaza can bait out a push and just get a combo… grrrr.:mad: If he musclez u in da corner with Wolverine, NOT BONERINE, when he beginz da lockdown series throw right after he does a c. rh. Workz everytime. Da BB has mass lag on start up so u are able to throw him right out of it.:eek: It is really good if u have someone like Magneto… Right Jose??? :lol: :bluu: :lol:
Th3 0N3
Wolverine/Sabretooth is a good team, but a lot of characters can crouch under his projectile type… Cable isn’t one of them, granted, but you still lose the pressure that Sentinel can provide.
Either way, you don’t need an assist to beat Cable/Sentinel! All you have to do, really, is wave-dash towards him… aside from well placed DPs, there’s not much Cable can do about it. :rolleyes:
Once you’re below him, you can either wait for him to hit sj. hk, and jump chain (j. lp -> j. lk -> j. mp -> j. mk XX up-forward Drill Claw) on reaction. Once you’ve conditioned him against that, you can ground/air throw (since he’s air-blocking). Another thing you can once he begins blocking is to let him land and dashing-jump air throw him… since once he lands, chances are he’ll just jump back again.
Wave-dashing is a great idea with Wolverine… it only takes two dashes to get him across the screen. Plus, the fact that you’re doing it without the “toward” motion gives you more time to block on reaction… that way, you won’t run into pesky anti-air assists or Cable’s s. hk. All in all, it’s quick, easy, and has little commitment. It’s the Wolverines’ best tool, really. Too bad I’m so addicted to his dashing jump… :bluu: It’s how I die most of the time.
People that jump back a lot should get air thrown a lot… Teach both Cable and Sentinel players to stay on the ground once you’re close… then start baiting out their AAAs… the only ones Wolverine should really fear.
Vance
Projectile assists will fit the bill nicely… but anti-airs can work just as well. It depends on you.
Here are my “Double Wolverine” teams (in order of preference)…
Wolverine A/Sentinel Y/Bonerine Y
Wolverine A/Gambit A/Bonerine Y
Wolverine A/Spider Man Y/Bonerine Y
Wolverine A/Cyclops B/Bonerine Y
Wolverine A/Charlie A/Bonerine Y
When using Wolverine, Sentinel is by far my favorite assist since combining the drones with Wolverine on point is a fast way to kill any defensive assist abuser. In fact, it and these other counterparts are designed specifically to destory anyone that keeps away or turtles. To tell you the truth, the only way people can beat me consistently is by rushing me down. Unless they have a humongoid lead, of course…
I’ve proven it again and again… you watch my matches and see the people that beat me… they develop elaborate ways to bait out my assists (Baiting projectile assists requires you to get behind the point! …this usually looks like runaway.) until I decide to attack without them, fight me face to face, land a combo that puts them in the lead and, aside from "call and cover"s, stop attacking with their point altogether. :bluu: Either that or have a better lockdown sequence than me… which is rare. (Duc… David L… not too many people that can successfully pull it off.)
Either way… there are ways to take both of these “advanced opponents” on with Wolverine. You just have to keep keen.
Like I said, good players will stop calling their AA or defensive assists blindly and bait yours by hovering around. For characters like Magneto, Storm, and Sentinel, this is cake. Simply super jump once I’ve called it, get behind it quickly (or as fast as you need to) and come down on it before Wolverine will stop you… why does this work? Because I only call projectile assists while I’m dashing in… which literally leaves my projectile assist behind uncovered. Yuck. They start fucking it up… what to do? Up to you… but other than that and AAA 101, I wouldn’t have too many problems using assists with either Wolverine.
HuStLeMaN17
Where did you hear that? Play me before believing stuff like that… cuz I’m not, okay? :rolleyes: I mean, just about EVERYONE I’ve played has beat me… so I wonder who’s actually saying that.
Well… in my opinion, if you want to play low tier, you’ll have to “start all over again.” I’m pretty sure since just about everyone has a little top tier in their repretoire, you and they’ll know what I’m talking about when I say, “Picking a new character is starting from the ground up.”
First, you’ll have to choose your character and learn him or her on point. This means you’ll learn ALL their moves, develop specific “bread and butter” combos, create tactics that work, find out how to get around with them, etc… In addition, you’ll find which assist/characters are most complimentary and develop your crossover skills (counters, DHCs and switch-ins).
Each of these steps are crucial in choosing new characters and teams… and in case you haven’t noticed by now, they go for top tier as well.
Second, you’ll want to test your skills with that character. A lot of people go about this the wrong way. Most people decide that in order to give their character ample “field practice,” they’ll shove him in the back and play them only when necessary. Yeah… big mistake. If you really want to know how well your new guy will fare, you MUST put him in the front. There’s no two ways about it. In short, I’d say that “The only way to get good with low tier is to force it upon yourself… open with them.”
Don’t get me wrong… you can still play it safe if you want to… just play a second character with a safe or easy DHC. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about both casual and tournament MvC2, there’s absolutely no shame in bailing out. From a “scrub’s” point of view, it seems like something a cheater would do, but it’s in the game… and if you wanna play the game, play the game. No sense in complaining about things you can benefit from, now is there?
For example, one of the reasons I first decided to play Wolverine A/Gambit A/Bonerine Y (Double Wolverine Gambit) wasn’t ONLY for their incredible delayed or triple hyper combos… but also because of Gambit’s completely safe (and often overlooked) DHC. Trust me, for rookies and tournament players alike, having a safe way to bail #1 is always a must.
You ever wonder WHY? Cuz when you think about it, nobody’s really offered any guesses or explanations for this phenomenon… Personally, I think it’s because having more characters (whether it be one or two) gives you a psychological lead… but that’s just me!
Anyways, after opening with said character enough times, you’ll eventually decide whether you’ve got the hang of him or not. If you haven’t, you’ll probably want to keep at it or give up and go back to what you’re experienced with… the choice is yours. Personally, I’d only stick with it if the character appealed to me… and contrary to popular belief, some do and some don’t. I don’t know how to play everyone in MvC2.
So like I said, you’d only want to learn something that appeals to you. Are you sure you want me to talk about the other teams I play? …or do you want to make some of your own? Dude, truthfully… pick a character you like and stick with it. It’ll take you a lot further than my words ever would.
I remember replying to you a lOoOoOoOong time ago, HuStLeMaN… you really haven’t gotten any further since then? Don’t you live like, 20 minutes away from Seattle? I’d be trying to play against Cody, Kuan, Rattana or Rodolfo if I were you, you lucky son of a…
Satomiblood II
It’s true… plus, Jay’s a lot better than I am. Still… he only replies when he’s been challenged or something settles wrong with him… so unless you want to get on his seemingly “bad side,” I wouldn’t even try. At least via post… if you want something close to real information, I’d try to play against him or hit him up on IRC…
In real life, Jay is too cool (…unless he loses, of course! But hey, I’ve thrown my share of tantrums too, so … :rolleyes: ). But on the internet, he always seems to make it a point of being an asshole. A very interesting guy, to say the least.
Here’s a bit of trivia fer ya… Viscant convinced me to play Wolverine with Sentinel back when I was dead set on using only low tier… meaning “Double Wolverine Sentinel” is partly his creation! :bluu: …
Unreallystic II
If you like the character, you’ll find a way to use him. Like I said before, following everything I say isn’t gonna do it for you or anyone else. Being hard-headed is key… but you gotta be tenacious as well.
If I recall correctly, Wolverine can only do up to 70 points at a time, but Bonerine has 80 point combos… all against 100% vitality, of course… if we’re talking against Blackheart, Juggernaut, Sentinel, and the like, then that’s a different story. Let’s not also forget the fact that these combos are impractical/difficult to do. If we were talking how much I do with Wolverine, I’d say an average of 45 points (30%) at a time… and that’s without assists, resets, throw combos or DHCs.
You hit it on the dot, man. Wolverine is all about the frustration factor. When people get backed up into a position they don’t wanna take, they’ll try to escape and get fucked up in the process. Furthermore, when they actually do up and escape, their technique and timing gets thrown off giving you the offensive advantage. Once again, you got to keep the ball rolling.
I’ve seen a lot of people in person that take after me… playing Wolverine against others and doing their best to land some fancy point or assist combo… and shit… if they do, I’ll be impressed. But the fact remains that all it’s really about is using his moves to lock your opponent in place. Once you’re able to do that for more than 2 or 3 cycles (…and accounting for the hits you land in-between them!), then I’ll be impressed.
I had this conversation with my homey S3nTiN3L a long ass time ago! The point of playing a speedy wimp like Wolverine would only be to keep the opponent in a state of perpetual blockstun so he can’t get out and do bullshit to you. I mean, would you rather disengage him after doing 50% (in other words, non-lethal) combos and give him the opportunity to do his shit… or would you rather re-engage over and over, effectively denying him the opportunity to do anything at all? I think the choice is obvious, but more to the point… getting hits isn’t what Wolverine’z about.
Point of fact: getting hits with him can become annoying! Look at Strider/Doom players… when their opponents get hit by Doom rocks, which scale damage EXTREMELY, the Strider player will have no choice but to leave the ground and try to put them back into the trap somehow or follow up with a simple non-damaging air combo. You can’t just continue as expected without some sort of contingency plan… which reinforces the point: landing hits becomes a contingency!
But still… playing Wolverine well means you’ll adjust for such contingencies and perpetuate the cycle… no matter what it takes. Whenever people get hit, I think of it as “escape failure…” they tried to get out the wrong way and payed for it either by getting hit by Wolverine or his projectile assist. What I do with their “escape failures” is up to my reaction time, but since I’ve run into just about every one that was ever written, it takes less and less reaction time as time goes on. I’m able to follow up each contingency and repeat my cycles without disengaging more effectively each time.
So like I said, if you can develop a trap with no more than 1 method of escape, perpetuate the “trap” cycle for more than 2 or 3 reps AND adjust for contingencies, I’ll be impressed. Because for the most part, that’s what I think playing the game is about.
I have experience with Charlie A, Cyclops B, Gambit A, Sentinel Y and Spider-Man Y… these are the people I’ve chosen over time. Other characters may work just as well (if not, better)… but finding that out is up to you. All I can say, for the moment, is that characters with either chipping, multiple or slow projectiles always help. A few you might consider:
B.B. Hood A
Doom A
Guile B
Marrow A
Silver Samurai B
Spider-Man A
Spiral A
Storm A
Thanos A
Assists like Doom B or Tron Y, however, depend on you crossing up. This can be done with Wolverine, but it isn’t as reliable as his advancing abilities.
Good to see you thinking out loud. Just a note: Rogue advances in her dash type, and since Wolverine will probably advance faster than her, she’ll probably end up being less useful than you thought… think Rogue/Juggernaut team super: both do great damage, so independently they each have a great dynamic… but put them together and what happens? Juggernaut pushes the opponent faster and Rogue does shit. That’s exactly what I picture happening with her assist and Wolverine. 
Also, don’t rule out Ken A entirely. In my experience, hitting people with and protecting assists such as those is all a matter of occupying them (with a chase move) on the way down… which can be as simple as an air throw attempt or cross up as they land. Still, on characters who dominate the space below them (Blackheart/Magneto/Storm), you’ll have to keep an eye out. Others, like Cable, Doctor Doom and Sentinel are hella easy to take advantage of this in this position because of their sprite size, mondo lag and/or slow ass attacks.
Stay up.
Yes. I’m a dick.
They say you are what you eat.
That’s not true.
If that was true, then Ricky Ortiz would be 4 gallons of semen.
Anyways yeah. Wolverine is fun.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Hey, digging the thread!!! ne way just had a quick question (dont know if its already been asked tho) after successfully performing an air combo does it seem practical to anticipate your HUMAN opponent teching and starting off your mashing for the air combo just in case w/ lk+hp for the quick drill claw? I remember the cpu teked my air throw once and I through a complete act of luck caught it w/drill claw. What do ya think?
air throw isnt guaranteed way of damage so i would chill off of it completely unless you can figure out some advanced gaurd break after it… thats not really practical because all they have to do is block. besides… wolverine is all bout the groundgame
And Jose… asswipe… why didn’t you list ryu projectile on there… shit is toooo good and it’s nice and slow so you can milk that fp beserker barrage…
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23810
the sakura thread… because wolverine doesn’t have a fireball