I find more often than not it’s proves to be a gimmick more than a solid game changing discovered only revealed in the heat of high level competition. \
This is all really stupid.
The point is, esports are not the Boogeyman. Most of the “soul” of this scene has already been traded for meager gains. There is no reason to be all sentimental with whatss left.
Granting the first part, romanticizing the past and demonizing the present is just as shortsighted and damaging as mindlessly hating on esports.
I think that’s why Viscant sometimes post here and shares his strats, to see if anyone can find a hole in it or a counter. And then he wins EVO with his whole team plan out for anyone to see months before EVO lol.
It’s easy to just dismiss shit.
I played in the last era. I’ve played in this era. There are stark differences in the scene. I liked it better, when pussies were shunned, as opposed to now, when the scene caters to the sensibilities of a generation that is bitch-made.
Call that romanticizing and demonizing all you want. I call it reality. The scene has changed in the last couple of years in ways that would have seemed unthinkable just a couple of years ago. I personally feel like those have been MAJOR changes, core changes to what the scene used to stand for.
I know it’s easy and cool to act like you know everything and dismiss everything as bitching, or romanticizing, or whatever else people do when they really don’t know what they’re talking about, but want to feel like they do, and want to be able to dismiss a point of view with ZERO basis upon which to do it… but it doesn’t mean much.
The BIGGEST point, however, is that it doesn’t matter. The scene has changed in major ways recently, and I don’t think that’s even a refutable point. Anything the people fear-mongering MLG are spouting about, are changes that are already happening anyway, so who gives a shit if you think it’s better now, or people are just stubborn and romanticizing shitty times, or whatever.
marn’s been an asshole for ten years now, and he JUST got banned from the mic. There’s a fundamental change in our identity that caused that. It’s a change that isn’t necessarily bad… but it’s a change nonetheless. It’s a change that’s happening regardless of if MLG runs fighting games.
I really respect alphazealot for coming on here to give us his perspective.
You know…SRK was never that mean of a place. There is the shit that the FGC used to do on purpose to make themselves look like a bunch of assholes and then the other stuff that happened on accident which made them look like assholes. Problem is that unless you were actively participating, it would’ve been really hard to tell the difference.
Oh well.
I get the sense that some people think people who only spectate are bad for the scene. Why exactly? I know many people who know they don’t have the talent (or the time, or the energy) to be a top player, but they still like watching the hype of fighting games. Streams these days open up the scene to all types of people, while those who are still hungry to compete can do so. If a spectator wants to come to my tournament just to watch, he’s more than welcome.
There are more competitors AND more spectators for fighting games than there ever have been in the past. Having more spectators doesn’t preclude having more competitors.
Also, HAV’s points about the scene are accurate in the sense that there’s no denying there’s been a change, and whether you think it’s a good or bad change probably depends on the demographic you’re talking to. The most important thing, as far as I’m concerned, is that fighting games are still exciting to watch and play. For every tournament, and every game, there are hype matches, and the energy being in the live crowd watching the finals at Evo is just as energetic as its ever been. The rest is just drama which can unfortunately overshadow the most important thing about the scene, playing the games.
Come EVO, nobody in this thread will care about the Esports debate. We’ll be too busy shouting at the top of our lungs at the stage.
HAV, that’s hardly an original position to take, people feel that way about every single subject ever.
I’ve been playing games a long long long time, and I’ve seen plenty of fandoms and subcultures. It’s all the same, especially when something starts getting big.
Eventually you come to the realization that everybody wants to think they’re the unique special case, and just about nobody ever is.
It applies to people thinking that esports will ‘ruin’ the culture, and it applies just as much to people thinking the damn kids have ruined the culture. It’s important because both feelings come from the same destructive place, the same myths.
For people that are really involved on a personal, real-life level, all the SRK stuff and the esports stuff shouldn’t matter at all. It doesn’t change how you play, and it shouldn’t change how your friends play. It should have no effect on you at all, unless you want it to.
But that’s the thing, isn’t it. People seem to want something to rail against, whether its about how the kids these days don’t have any ambition and won’t get a real job, or if the new players are too… bitchy I guess? Lazy maybe? If you put it into the esports argument, they’re too greedy, but its all the same thing, and its all coming from the same place.
**Nothing is ruined.** I can continue playing games with the people I've been playing with since the late '80s, and I'm well past the point in my life where I have to prove anything. Players shouldn't be dependent on the vagrancies of the culture to enjoy the games and events they cherish. Not in fighting games, not in Politics, not in Football.
If people spent more time enjoying the games and less time worrying about how everything is going to hell, well just imagine it.Hmph a debate.Oh look Xesaie is posting again, as there is another debate! I wish i can say I am surprised but…
I originally didn’t agree with HAV on his assessment of the scene, because the fighting game community are admittedly a bunch of assholes… sometimes fun-loving, sometimes not, and I don’t think that’s a good attitude to base your scene on long-term. That’s more about my personality compared to the scene’s, but whatever.
But then he said that everyone in the 90s grew up in the everyone-gets-a-trophy world, and… I guess I can’t really disagree with that. It’s a change that is effecting the culture of everything worth doing in the world, the fact that everyone in the world can sign up for a twitter or a tumblr and feel like they’ve earned the right to say something because they know how to navigate a sign-up page. It’s been changing the course of ALL gaming, not just fighting games… this self-righteous sense of entitlement that if you can’t man up and beat a tough section in a game, it’s the game’s fault. People don’t want to invest any effort in anything anymore.
You say HAV can go play with the same friends he’s always played with and enjoy the games… but can he really? He grew up in an arcade culture which doesn’t exist anymore, and the games that are played now aren’t the ones he cut his teeth on. The experience, even with exactly the same players on 1P and 2P side, is way different now than it used to be.
I do agree with what you say that people should leave the drama behind and just play the games, but you shouldn’t pretend that things aren’t vastly different, and that HAV’s opinion that the changes are negative isn’t valid.
Again… I’m not even trying to have a discussion about whether the recent changes in the scene are for better or worse.
My only point is that they are happening, regardless of whether MLG holds a SF tournament or not. That’s my only point.
There is zero logic in fearing MLG, when the shit you fear is happening all around you already, anyway. Everyone wants to bring the community to some point of commercial viability, and the oft-racist, sexist, unfriendly environment that used to define the scene is a thing of the past. The focus on competitors, over spectators… the absolutely pure meritocracy that used to be the BEST part of the scene… it’s gone. It just is. I don’t care to argue whether that’s a good thing or not. I really don’t care what anyone’s opinion on that is. I have mine. You can have yours. It’s cool. It really is.
My only point is that setting up MLG as this evil force that will change everything, presupposes that whoever is in positions of power now are conservative forces looking to retain the soul of our scene. That is a completely false basis. Everyone in any position of influence is trying to do the exact same shit MLG is. Some of these people have enough cred to hide behind, so they can obfuscate this truth… but it’s the same. Everyone is trying to expand, and they’re willing to eschew whatever core values to make it happen. I, personally, think it’s a waste of time, and they’re doing it wrong anyway… but that’s a whole other discussion.
^ Damn
negative zero; ya gotta be fair, I’ve skipped plenty of debates in the last several weeks, its not like I show up to every one, this is just a pet peeve of mine. .
HAV: Funny thing is I more than agree with your point as of page 4, and was only going to come in to agree with it, but then I saw the ‘things have gone to hell’ thing and that always sets me off 
But yes, MLG is doing what Evo wanted to do under their own terms. The only real debate involved is who you want running your esports.
It’s strange that I never really thought of this but it is true. Where is the new blood? I think this perspective is missing from the conversation because for most players all these faces are new to them since the vast majority of FGC now consists of players ushered in by SF4 in 2009. I grew up playing fighters but I didn’t start coming to SRK until around 2005 and didn’t sign up until 2009. I remember the exact reason too, I was surfing the net and someone in some forum linked a preview to an old Evo dvd that had marvel2 highlights; my friends and I having “played” (in the loosest sense of the term) the game and thinking we were decent (hey we beat everyone in town lol) were fucking SHOCKED to see what high level play actually was. From there I found SRK and the rest is history.
On the other topic you responded too HAV – I’ve spent the day thinking about your post and I still think that you are correct but I feel that the manner in which mlg/epsorts is conducted is wrong for the FGC. Sure if it’s going to blow up that means corporate sponsors, but what kills me is that there is something very special about the streams as they are right now. It feels homegrown, and even watching the stream over the internet is a somewhat personal experience. I mean shit for EVO I meet up w/ some friends and we bring food and spend the day watching it, it’s an event for us. There is no way I could watch an MLG stream all day, there is no personality and it all seems forced; plus the BARRAGE of ads, either playing between every match or sitting there on the TV’s behind the commentators. It’s like overwhelming, I hate being told to buy stuff. it feels rather like this:
It’s distracting and takes away from the experience. Then there is the whole mess of borrowing money and then being forced to try and make it back, that is not a good idea. It will end up destroying the FGC.
There are some new players: Wolfkrone, the Utah dudes, Juicebox… just not a whole lot.
As for the other point, yeah… things in FGC are still different from how MLG is perceived, but if you think what’s going on now in the FGC is the endgame, I think you’re way off. It is where it is now, but it’s heading somewhere very different, from what I can see.
gah, you can’t have it both ways 
Either stop bringing it up, or don’t say ‘that’s not the real point!’ when called on it!
P sure he can have it however he wants it dude. Because no one honestly gives a fuck.
I’m not trying to have it both ways. What I meant is the same point I’ve been making: the FGC is currently TRYING to do the same stuff MLG is already doing. It may look a little different now, but that’s where it’s going, so there’s no logic in fearing MLG, if you support the FGC. It’s all headed to the same point. MLG just has a couple steps ahead on the FGC right now.