Tom Brady posted on his youtube before some silly options with Sub that he was asking to get changed. I think they were unblockable/refreeze setups. Can’t look it up now, I just remember how powerful it seemed and why he was petitioning for a change.
I think that reset is very overrated, the main reason why it is so powerful now is because a lot of people don’t know the properties of other characters EX moves. Yes, it is a good tool, but good players are going to know how to deal with it, and eventually it’s going to become too meter intensive to use on the regular. In my opinion, I like how Jade can be a long range poking monster, and hit confirm off almost all of them to a nice combo. Her overhead game is pretty week, but she has enough where she can force the opponent not to play passive, and I think that is a big deal in this stage of the game.
Personally I think most of the cast of this game hovers around mid tier, with tools to win but the occasional hard matchup.
Mileena and Sindel low tier? I don’t think so.
They have too many zoning/rushdown abilities to be low tier.
I think most of the cast is mid tier.
It wasn’t broke at all. [media=youtube]ASH_EYo1O6w&feature=player_embedded"[/media] that required the opponent to be frozen on the ground and dealt between 40-60%. Nothing nearly as dangerous as Lui Kang mix ups or just being touched by Kung Lao.
Sub Zero still has to guess whether or not his opponent will block or not, because the refreeze only works if the opponent tries to block. If sub throws out the charged b2 and the opponent doesn’t block they get out with minimal damage. If sub guesses they will try to get out by not blocking, he can dash cancel the b2 into a string, but the opponent has the opportunity to block and get out unscathed. If you’re aware of the mix up and you’re quick enough, you can probably block dash canceled b2’s on reaction.
I’ve been reading up on Subby while trying to main him, and he seems to have some really good match ups (eg Johnny Cage) and some really bad ones (eg Raiden). He looks solid, but not nearly as God like as Raiden and Kung Lao. At least those are my first impressions. Waaaaay too early to be talking tiers, and especially too early to be talking about banning/patching.
It’s not too early to start discussing what a tier list might look like, but it is too early to start taking any of this discussion very seriously 
.
lol mean space control, and great ways to limit Opp’s options…
@HangingSquid: That list sounds about right. Only thing I disagree with is Sindel, Sub Zero and Mileena being so low. They’re at least higher mid tier to me.
Also, to me Baraka is better than Jax and Quan Chi.
To people saying it’s way to soon to be talking about this: you’re wrong. There’s not a specific amount of months we should have to wait before talking about the meta game and character potential. Tier lists are never completely done anyway. They keep changing as players learn their characters and their matchups. Tournament results will for the most part dictate who will be at the top. But it’s still never to be taken 100% seriously. Like someone else said: “In the end the better player will always wins.”
Plus it could be interesting to see how the MK tier list evolves in time. Just to see how our initial perceptions were wrong or right.
explain to me what to do against smoke when ur sub zero lol
The same thing he does vs everyone.
Clones, 22, F4/B4 mixups.
Liu Kang doesn’t have “dangerous mixups”. L-M-M or H-M-overhead isn’t a mixup. Just block low all day and react to the string with the overhead at the end. A “dangerous mixup” would be Cyrax’s…
And Subs does not eat shit from Raiden at all. It’s probably an even matchup.
Why Tom says Subs is the best character in the game:
22 is an amazing all around tool, so good that you don’t need his other moves besides the mix up ones mentioned.
B4 is a safe on block sweep, and F4 is a safe overhead that gives a strong confirm-able combo on hit.
Ice clone is a great defensive/zoning tool.
Great anti airs that grant combos.
Xray is safe on block, fastest in the game, can be charged for super armor and doesn’t scale much in combos.
He gets a strong combo/Xray combo from every common situation.
Slide punishes situations that would be safe otherwise, such as jumping back.
Because 22 starts a full combo while other characters need a slow launchers Subs is one of the best frame punishers in the game.
Let’s say he puts a clone and advances in it, what are your options?
Wait while blocking? You open yourself for mixups and pressure.
Try to attack? You may hit the clone while hitting him.
Jump back? EX slide catches you and sends you into the clone for a combo.
Walk back? Go ahead right into the corner where your options are even more limited when he puts a clone in your face.
While other top tiers excel at very specific areas, he’s an all around character with low risk and pretty high rewards.
i agree about sub zero, clone is very very good.
but why does it look so crappy? i swear the textures look like such terrible resolution… argh. the game looks beautiful except for that darn clone.
Tom Brady has been playing this game for much more than 2 weeks. He has said that NRS banned him from the first official tournament for this reason.
If you want to try and put on a Raleigh get-together, then you should post in the South regional section.
Lui has safe instant 50-50’s off of B+FK, FP and F+FK that he can follow up with for solid damage. At lot of his stuff is really safe and really damaging, and don’t require anything situational like a grounded freeze. He has a lot of good tools for getting in quickly to start mixing you up.
Really? How so? I’d reckon an instant, unpunishable teleport would pretty much invalidate a big part of Subby’s clone/fireball zoning game. Not saying he ‘eats shit’, but it certainly seems like a potential problem to me.
I don’t see how his mixup is more dangerous than other regular safe mixups like Sub Zero’s and Smoke’s.
When BOTH options give you combos on hit, that’s what I call a dangerous mixup.
Sub Zero is mainly a close ranged fighter, not a long range zoner. His “zoning” is mostly pushing you to the corner and giving you trouble when attacking him, using the clones. At long ranges Ice Blast is just for teasing and meter gaining. Vs characters with no teleports, it could be ok at half screen distance with clone cover, but against teleporters it’s only used at close range, in combos, turning “pokes” into “launchers”.
Raiden’s teleport could probably give trouble to the actual zoners in the game like Stryker, but Subs wants to get close anyways…
The part of the teleport that would annoy Sub Zero is the “getting out of the corner for free” part, but that’s annoying for everyone else just as much, and it’s not like Subs needs the corners to do good damage.
Catch him doing the clone… it’s pretty easy to read. Hit him with a projectile, which there are many he can’t slide under.
Yes, 2,2 is an amazing tool, but any zoning character can keep Sub-Zero out with very little problems.
I believe what tom brady says. I mean the dude has won 3 super bowls/ 2 super bowl mvps/ and a 6 time pro bowl. If thats not a credible resume to create a tier list… then idk what is!
Because Smoke and Lui are on you so much faster than Subz. They seem to have great tools for getting in. That’s why I find their mix up game more dangerous than Subby when he needs to land an ice ball/clone to do the same thing. Not a bad thing, it’s a really good mix up too, I just don’t see why people were talking about patching the ice reset when others could do similar stuff.
What are Subby’s options for rushdown if he isn’t a zoner? He seems kinda slow and slide is really unsafe. If I ice clone and jump in aren’t I pretty susceptible? What are the good pokes I should be dashing in with? I’m guessing 2,2? I usually try and pressure mistakes by keeping them away with ice clones and balls, trying to bait a jump or punishable teleport and start mixing up when I have a knockdown or ground freeze.
You cannot punish the clone on reaction. He mixes it after pressure strings to make you scared to attack when you finally get the chance.
Vs zoning characters he’ll need to advance slowly but at the right ranges he could afford a trade of ice blast with another projectile, because he either gets a slide into an up close match, or even a full combo as you may have seen in the spooky stream. He could even do his XR from a distance for an easy 30% to finish matches.
22 is fast and he hit-confirms it to ice blast for a big combo which ends in more pressure and mixups. And on block you mix in jumping, throws, 224, clones.
F4 is an overhead with a good range, not slower than smoke’s and he confirms it into ice blast. what more do you need?
He was just trying to hook up with someone else from the thread, and since it’s Sunday, I think we can all take the sticks out of our butts for a 24 hour period. What do you say ?
Top 5 for now IMO (take this with a grain of salt, all 5 of these characters might not even be here in a month)
- Raiden
- Johnny Cage
- Cyrax
- Sub Zero
- Kung Lao