Mike Z on the cost of making (fighting) games

[lightskintwin]

Wow. Still going. O.o

Bchan made a general statement that 3d is cheaper than 2D especially in fighting games, then went even further to say that Skullgirls would’ve been cheaper had it been made in 3D. Somebody agreed with him in general but disagreed about using Skullgirls as an example due to it’s use of stretching or morphing. Bchan agreed that stretching and morphing is more advantageous in 2D, hence the reason they’re willing to go the MORE EXPENSIVE ROUTE to attain it. Peter responds that if they made it in 3D it would’ve been MORE EXPENSIVE AND TIME CONSUMING in order to attain it.

I’m fairly certain that’s the gist of it…

Either that or it’s probably my posts today are just a series of April Fools jokes.

Yes, it is true that doing all the squash and stretch would be more expensive in 3D. It has been said in an interview somewhere that certain darkstalkers characters weren’t possible in 3D because of this.

However my whole argument is predicated on the fact that Skullgirls is going specifically for this style, and thus 2D is a better choice. If they went 3D, it’s unlikely they’d use this design philosophy, and thus production would be cheaper.

As d3v pointed out, their engine is specially designed to help them save 2D costs, and this is because 2D is traditionally the more expensive and time consuming method of doing things. The fact that they need their engine specially designed to handle certain 2D tasks shows you how desperately they want to save time and effort in doing 2D.

So yes, while it was my mistake to say “making Skullgirls exactly as it is now” is cheaper in 3D, I still stand by my statement that if they really wanted to do 3D, it wouldn’t be this way, and it’d be cheaper than the way they HAVE gone with 2D.

2D is still the more expensive route. Skullgirls developed a special engine that helps tip it in their favor, and allows them to go for the specific style they want. Going to 3D would require design sacrifices, but would cost less overall.

And, this doesn’t change my point about other traditional fighters, which are still cheaper in 3D.

Bchan, please ignore me. I like to debate and was simply still trying to win. LOL

I’ll happily take this L in the generous way.

[bchan009]

Bchan, please ignore me. I like to debate and was simply still trying to win. LOL

Haha ok =)

[Mike_Z]

@SpaceOutNightmare - simplified or complicated hitboxes doesn’t change unblockables, that has nothing to do with what the boxes are and only to do with how the engine handles when you are allowed to block different types of hits.

But, having no hurtbox any where near an attack boxes is more likely to be like mvc3 which SG is close to being like even Daisuke knew this when he worked on GG.

THAT, I gotta call BS on. Disjoint hitboxes are everywhere in older games, on weapons. Which is what that example picture is from, Parasoul’s umbrella is a weapon.

Here is a giant collection of examples I made in about 5 minutes (ten if you count the time spent getting the GGXXAC hitbox viewer to work):

In fact, SG has a distinct system:

• If it’s a limb, it always has a vulnerable box in addition to an attack box.
• If it’s a weapon, which can’t be hit, it has an attack box only.
• And if it’s “living weapon”, like Cerebella’s hat arms, it has no vulnerable box UNTIL it has an attack box, then it has both. Which is how Potemkin’s 6H works, among other things.

I mean, I get that you don’t like that we don’t have giant rectangles, but c’mon yo…if there’s one thing I do, it’s research other fighting games. I realize other games sometimes put vulnerable boxes on weapons excluding the tips in a lot of cases, but to talk like they NEVER did it otherwise and therefore not doing that is the SAME THING as covering Doom’s entire body in an attack area is kinda insulting.

[d3v]

Since @Mike_Z is here anyhow, I’d just like to ask. What were the guidelines when assigning hitboxes for Skullgirls? I’d especially like to know since some characters seem to have more complicated hitboxes than others. For example, Peacock seems to have very simple hitboxes, compared to say, Cerebella.

[Mike_Z]

Cerebella and Filia were done first, by me when I had no idea of what to do yet. :^P Peacock was the first attempt at standards, and the first character done by our hitbox mavens.

[mutantmagnet]

LOL I think this is a classic case of serendipity.

3D Skullgirls.

[d3v]

Cerebella and Filia were done first, by me when I had no idea of what to do yet. :^P Peacock was the first attempt at standards, and the first character done by our hitbox mavens.

I’ll admit, that space between Bella’s body and her hip/knee always struck me as odd. I keep wondering if that small space actually gives her any sort of advantage.

[jedpossum]

snip

Yeah I deserved that part since I only played the demo when it first dropped going off very shoddy memory.

But do you see that you’re over complicating a lot of the boxes on the character like Parasoul you only need 2 attack boxes and have the same effect for the attack same with the hurt boxes you only need 3.

[d3v]

snip

Yeah I deserved that part since I only played the demo when it first dropped going off very shoddy memory.

But do you see that you’re over complicating a lot of the boxes on the character like Parasoul you only need 2 attack boxes and have the same effect for the attack same with the hurt boxes you only need 3.

I think Mike wants to minimize cases of hitbox dissonance with some exception (i.e. Parasoul’s st. HP where the extra boxes are needed to make sure it doesn’t whiff on crouching characters).

That said, I believe he pretty much admitted that he overdid it with the earlier characters (Parasoul was the 3rd revealed if I remember correctly). I’m pretty sure the new characters wont have hitboxes as complicated as the ones we see here.

[Ragnorok64]

Who cares as long as it works.

[ShinjiGohan]

SK costs as much as it does because you don’t want to play another shaq-fu or way of the warrior.

[d3v]

SK costs as much as it does because you don’t want to play another shaq-fu or way of the warrior.

Sony/Naughty Dog should remake this for the PS4.

[Mike_Z]

Yeah, I overdid it, but it doesn’t make anything worse. As an artiste, sure, but as a player? 1 box, 10 boxes, same area. Nobody cares what the code looks like, as long as it works. :^)
When we’ve had 15 years’ experience it’ll be as clean as 3s, I promise.

[Louiscipher]

Damn, Jedpossum got pwned.

[d3v]

Yeah, I overdid it, but it doesn’t make anything worse. As an artiste, sure, but as a player? 1 box, 10 boxes, same area. Nobody cares what the code looks like, as long as it works. :^)
When we’ve had 15 years’ experience it’ll be as clean as 3s, I promise.

I’m gonna hate myself for saying this (considering how much I abused the move), but you don’t have Chun’s back + :hp:, so you’re already cleaner than 3S.

[GespenstRitter]

I wonder how much a boss version of an existing character (think Gold/Unlimited characters) would take in resources, including the bug testing, any possible extra visual effects, and new UI elements that would go along with such a character.

[jedpossum]

Really somebody said I got owned due to him arguing one point not the whole arguement?
If I really wanted to countine the argument I could of posted this.

People can have differing opinions. he’d rather have hitboxes that match a shooter. I’d rather have boxes like CvS2.

[Hecatom]

I’ll be honest, the hitboxes on that pic make no sense

Edit

What is that light blue box around bishamon’s hitbox?

[Ragnorok64]

I don’t really want to lose a match because Cerebella somehow grabbed my Parasoul by the umbrella.

[MightyMar]

I’ll be honest, the hitboxes on that pic make no sense

Edit

What is that light blue box around bishamon’s hitbox?

That is to tell the game that he can cut projectiles. He does not clash with projectiles while preforming Iai Giri.