Philosophically, this is the one issue I have with MGTOW. Now to be perfectly clear, I don’t think this idea is actually a part of the core MGTOW philosophy. It’s a peripheral idea that is commonly associated. “IDGAF, let it burn.”
For those that actually become Mountain Men, wholly separated and free from and of society, this is a fine attitude. For those who benefit from the structures and inventions of those that came before them, this is an unacceptable attitude. Socrates drank the hemlock because he recognized that participation with society is a contract with society. You take all that you’ve been given, from the gifts of your DNA to the structures that allowed you to mold that clay, and you give back to society. You contribute. You leave the world better than you received it, as humanity has clearly done from the time of caves and plains to the time of skyscrapers and space travel.
Many anti or counter-feminists groups cite the contributions of great men, and how this is overlooked in a gynocentric societal structure. Those men worked to push humanity an inch closer to their potential. So in the cases of those inside and outside of MGTOW, I don’t think abandoning the moral compass and the contract with humanity is a part of going your own way. You can be a dysfunctional member of society whether you’re married or not, whether you’re a father or not, as millions of people have already proven.
I don’t think a self empowered person who is accomplished, and balanced and has reached or is approaching inner peace would so willingly abandon their moral compass. Now we can all agree that many MGTOW are wounded by society, but that’s where they are on their personal journey, not a central tenet of the MGTOW philosophy.
Food for thought; there’s a logic to human morality. It’s not just feelings. We are men, but we are animals. Our instincts lean as much towards predation and scarcity as they do towards consciousness and abundance. Individually, freedom is only a right because of society. Smash it all and we revert to the whims of the animal of the greatest numbers and longest teeth. As it is yet in an unsmashed state, we understand that personal freedom comes from empathy for the freedom of others. So unless one literally runs and hides in the forest, your entitlement to your own freedom comes with the payment of building society that supports said freedom. The alternative is that you are an enemy of society, and the moral imperative would then be to remove you from it.
But as I said, that has nothing to do with MGTOW. Marrying, having children, coupling–these are not necessary for contributing to society, as many great men and women have displayed throughout history.
That was addressed to Starhammer in response to a specific aspect of his perspective that is very often linked to MGTOW, by MGTOW. If you want to provide feedback, I’d be interested to hear your answer to my original question if you have a thought of your own. If not, our part in this exchange is over, thank you.
So…TL;DR version of that wall of text is you can’t consider yourself MGTOW if you still mingle with society? Did I get that right? Sorry if I didn’t get your message. It was mentally draining trying to get through all that.
You’ve missed the point. MGTOW isn’t about checking out of society, it’s about opting out of certain expectations that society gently places on people. And those expectations are ones many many other people will fulfill. I think MGTOW would be a moot point if more men were better at standing up for themselves in relationships, putting their foot down, and letting the women they’re dating know that they aren’t going to tolerate bullshit, but I understand that that isn’t an easy thing for a lot of people.
Then Starhammer replied and ended his response with “Let it burn. IGDAF.”
My response was to bring up how often the “destruction of society” sentiment was associated with MGTOW, even though it is not a central part of the philosophy. I noted that going MGTOW is independent of how productive one is as a contributer to society, according to the aforementioned core philosophy.
Ultimately, I think this sentiment is an anchor in what seems like the otherwise rational approach of MGTOW if they don’t like the offer that modern culture is putting on the table in regards to traditional relationships. And just for clarity, this anchor is tethered to MGTOW very often, but is not directly a part of it. It’s just common amongst MGTOW and I’m curious how intelligent fellows see that as an empowering manifestation of MGTOW philosophy.
You were only ever given one thing for free. That one thing, is life. As people often like to say,“Nobody owes you anything”. That is true in reverse. You owe nobody anything. Now, for years, men for the most part have indeed worked and used their talents to improve society. over the many years and decades, people have not shown gratitude for this, but shame(Always looking down on such jobs as Minimum wage,videogame companies, even service jobs like fire,police, and EMTs,etc.) and ridicule(Just about anything a man is doing now is “wrong”). Instead of receiving fruits from one’s labors, now they demand that labor and seek to take it if it isn’t given freely. If you keep biting the hand that feeds you, one day it will stop feeding you. That’s where we are now. Those hands have stopped lending themselves to the betterment of society, instead choosing to focus on themselves. Society, had best learn to show respect to those who serve it, or it won’t have servants.
DNA? Socrates? No. I’m the one who decided to learn how to fix this and repair that. The only thing my DNA had to do with it is that it is human DNA. This particular form is most suited for living in Society, but very few other places.
Divorce isn’t an unfortunate thing that happened after marriage, it’s a 50/50 bet that has turned into a multi-BILLION dollar deal. A deal, I might add, that has left many a man broken physically, spiritually, financially, emotionally, and in some cases, like suicide…irrevocably. Girls go around fucking before they even get their learners permit, and since you can’t have one without the other, you know guys are out there trying to get the pussy. There are freaking WEBSITES devoted to teaching you how to pump and dump chicks. Read that out loud five times while facing away from a mirror and see if you don’t get the chills. Many of the so-called celebrities on TV are now running neck and neck with the religious leaders for the title of sicko of the day. You see people you just KNEW were not ,“Like that” getting arrested for crimes that make you throw up in your mouth almost weekly. It’s way worse if you actually look at TV news. I mean, you can get married in the presence of God and all this month, and be getting pounded in divorce court by Spring. Does anybody think of the morality of making a man pay child support for children that are not even his? No. We laugh at him and call him a cuck while he breaks his back toiling away at whatever work he can get to support a wife he no longer has, kids that he never had, and a government that not only will not protect him, but will throw him in jail for not doing these things. Moral compass? Sorry. I don’t think this society makes those anymore. I generally have to walk blind, but I think I’ve gotten pretty good at it.
Some don’t do it so willingly. Those need a push. Just type in,“celebrity divorces for the year of XXXX” and you’ll get a list. a LONG one. As an old saying goes: “Marriage is grand. Divorce is one hundred grand.” Self-empowerment is a good thing. If you look it up in the dictionary, you’ll pass by the phrase self-destruction.
I mentioned logic before. It’s the reason a lot of these men are saying no to marriage. Logically, it just don’t add up. “Freedom is a right because of society”? It is with even more irony then, that so many men leave society, in particular, the rules of society, so that they can have freedom.
This is what we like to reffer to as shaming language.
So, “Play by society’s rules, or leave” huh? Thanks. Taking my balls and going home now. Good luck society. That has been the philosophy of MGTOW since the start. We’re not going to play the game. We’re not going to fight with you over this shit. We’re out this bitch. If they smash it all down, things might very well revert to the rules of the wild. The biggest stick and the biggest numbers will survive then. Of course, they would have to shed a lot of useless things again, like divorce court, shopping, pretty much anything that requires the skills of the very working men that have been shunned and pushed out to the shadows of society. If women think they’re oppressed now, wait until they really DO end up in a situation similar to the 1950s or worse. The cops ain’t coming to your house to deal with some petty ass shit like they do today. Women had to work with their men instead of getting a no-fault divorce, which is why a lot of marriages went as long as they did.
“That was then. This…is now.” It used to be that a man could marry his wife, and he would provide for the family, and she would take care of them. It used to be a partnership where all were indeed needed. Skip forward to now and…oh shit. “I don’t need no man!!” and “Women need men like a fish needs a bicycle!” OH SNAP! What the fuck done happened!! Oh yeah. Feminism. They’ve told women that, “they don’t need no man!”. They told them they can,“Have it all”. and that,“Boys are the enemy!” and so many other sweet dreams. In short, they sold them a bag of lies. Well, we all know lies can only go so far. Society kept propping up these women who aren’t doing anything for them at the expense of the people who are. That pedestal is close to breaking and it’s a long way back down to reality.
However, part of your above phrase is wrong. You must have children, or you won’t long have a society. I mean, not EVERYBODY has to go and pop out kids, but at least enough do. a rate of 2:1 if I remember correctly keeps the place even. China suffered from over population for the longest and had to institute a “one child per family” policy. It was rough for the girls back then because the parents would usually opt to have a child who would be able to take care of them in their old age. Typically, that was the boy. Japan’s population is declining to the point that there isn’t enough new workers to replace the old ones. A lot of blame has fallen upon what they call Hikikkomori, or “Grass-eating men”. Basically, The Japanese version of MGTOW. They don’t go to work for long hours per day, only to hand over their paychecks to their wives and get an allowance with which they can go out and have fun… :WTF: The Japanese men, just like a lot of American men, came to the realization that this shit just don’t work for them and society can kick rocks if it doesn’t like it. I’ll work my job, you give me my money and fuck off until x o’clock tomorrow unless It is my off day, in which case don’t bother me until it is.
Mainly, the women are going to be the losers in this particular event of life. As a fellow’s signature goes on the MGTOW website: Push a man around long enough, and eventually, “around” becomes “away”.
Starhammer’s post reminded me of a little culture thing I recalled when I was working at a dealership. A coworker, who is Hmong, told me that he still lived with his parents, which was a little odd at first because dude was well in his 20’s. He went further on saying that he won’t leave until he gets married. And that his mom would set aside money for him from his pay, and would get allowance. This also is similar to other Asian cultures as I think, my mom, who is Korean told me similar circumstances to some of her acquaintances/friends that they too had sons that stayed with them, some in their 30’s until they got married.
its fucked up. You, as a dude, always has someone controlling your money even though its you that earned it, no matter what the positives are, unless you really do need help and can’t manage it, but not so much with this situation.
The bolded part is the fucking truth. If a lot of society would stop thinking with their dicks and being slaves to their urges, there probably wouldn’t be a MGTOW, or at the very least, not an entire group of men who identify with such a thing. when lawmakers stop with these obviously sexist laws( Manspreading? :wtf: )when the cops (and other men) don’t just rush in and blindly attack the man in an argument between a man and a woman, When false rape accusations start carrying a serious fine, When a man’s call to the cops concerning violence in his house isn’t treated with laughter and ridicule, when no-fault divorces go away, when the entire establishment that the family court system is built on is dismantled and rebuilt in a manner that is fair to all parties involved, THEN a lot of men might come back to the table. These days I doubt it, but it would be a very big start.
Now, like Doc said, if it were only a few men who just didn’t know how to stand up for themselves in relationships, that would be one thing. Hell. I know I’ve been one of those guys, and probably would still be one. I’m not the kind of guy who brings extra bs to a situation and the type of woman I would be attracted to doesn’t do that either. I know There are guys who like wild, dramatic, hard to handle bitches. I am not, never have been, nor shall I ever be one of those guys.
That being, I can learn. If THIS is what it takes to get THAT to work, then I learn how to do this. These days, a lot of men don’t see women as worth their trouble. Marriage, dating, hell, some don’t even want to associate with women at work because of how toxic things have become. That isn’t the fault of some loser man, that is simply put, letting bitches get away with murder. Not enough people are telling them to stop, and they aren’t stopping. Others can put up with the bullshit if they want, but I won’t.
I am, but that’s because its a seriuous topic that requries people to think. Not only being legally on the hook to the musings of somebody with weak rationalization skills, but more importantly, this person is the other half responsible for the well being and growth of your child and maybe being given all the legal authority to raise your child. That shit is serious
you aren’t answering the question.
I don’t give a shit if people think they are in “healthy” relationships, because that’s a non issue. Short term relationships are meaningless in the context i’m coming from. You are also refusing to answer the question, “does partner count affects a persons ability to pair bond with another individual for the long term”. You keep defelcting with, ther’es plenty of people in healthy functional relationships, but you are either purposely ignoring the divorce/single parent rates in this country or think they are non issues with respect to our conservation
yes it usually is, and i’m asking if people who engage in that behavior are ultimately unfit for long term relationships and not worth the risk. That’s the point of the generalization. To keep yourself fincaially safe and more importantly, maximizing the well being and development of your child.
I don’t care why they did it. Because i’m not interested in fixing the whore problem, or getting to know a persons problems until I decide said person has enough positives to deal with the negatives. What i’m interested in is,
“DOES PARTNER COUNT MATTER AND HOW MUCH OF AN INFLUENCE THAT HAS ON A PERSONS ABILITY TO PAIR BOND FOR THE LONG TERM,CAN I USE IT AS A MEANS TO FILTER OUT WHAT WOULD BE TRASH”
what a person does is ultimately up to them, and whether they whore or not is their problem. That’s how it simply is, and there is very little you can do about it. Figuring out what drives them would be a good excersice in studying why people always engage in self destructive behavior or behavior that loads them up on dopamine in order to avoid having to solve their problems.
Is it really? Women by default have to be more self aware when it comes to certain things such as relationships due to biology, but there’s a trend today in which people like to pretend that partner count has no correlation to long term pair bonding. I’ve met few women who seemed like relationship material that was worth anything.
It is, however that’s what it takes when it comes to long term relationships. People molding people to fit a mold that can work with each other and be synergistic. Accepting people for who they are is terrible advice because people will get complacent and lead to increased stress and higher risk of separation. Molding a young woman into what you want isn’t what i’m interested in because I don’t want to teach a child, I want a partner that s equal in stature and brings something to the table and knows how to communicate, compromise, and sacrifice.
that’s why i’m engaging in this conversation. At this point, i’d rather not waste time with females that don’t bring something to the table, and i’m asking if partner count is an accurate measure of assessing and hedging your risk. Is a person who is used to cheap easy sex and has lost the ability to pair bond at a level higher than somebody who hasn’t engaged in said behavior capable of seeing a bond with another person worth stiicking it out when shit gets hard. I can only do so much, I can only do half the work, i can’t control the other half. So that’s why i’m interested in that statement
If that’s how you wish to look at it. If I were to pack it up and move to some area off the grid with some tools, clothes, and farming equipment, then the barter game is OVER. Yes, it would be a hard life and I doubt I could do it even if I wanted to, but it is not impossible. Oh yeah. Those “economic elites”? Their money is only good for as long as people have need of it.
the truth is, they NEED to keep the people poor. Keep them with just enough to live on so that they don’t have enough to get out of the hole. The last thing the social elites want is for the common man to be able to succeed. Let the economy crash. It wouldn’t take much to make the castles fall, and there is little use for a king if there are no subjects. Go check out some of the great depression documentaries and/or pictures. Elites, commoners, everyone’s stomach makes the same noise when its empty.
…AND THERE WE ARE!!! If these men are getting what they want, then they are satisfied. If they are satisfied, then they will give what the other wants in turn. Keep this up and we have a healthy, happy, functioning society. Rather simple, ain’t it?
I decided I don’t need to deal with society. I signed a contract a long time ago and both I and the other parties honored it. As far as society is concerned, my contract is to whatever services I rent, such as water, electricity, etc.
As far as morality is concerned, corruption constantly tries to twist and manipulate a person of moral fiber to do their bidding. Why do you think there are men out there in jail right now because they either refused to pay or simply couldn’t pay child support on a child that isn’t his? He probably thought his wife was moral too. No thanks. I can be moral as I want, but I’m also smart enough to see the traps and lies, and avoid them.
… Mountain men? Some people simply prefer a life without the ills of a modern society. They may not even know of MGTOW, much less be one.
Isn’t it? What’s with all the “alpha” this and “beta” that? If you don’t know the pecking order, then ask yourself this: Who are we allowed to pick on and make fun of? After you’re through with that list, ask yourself “who are we NOT allowed to pick on and make fun of?” who’s the best at whatever subject there is that is being talked about? Who’s the best actor? Best football player? Best MMA fighter? Etc. There’s your strongest and weakest.
Yes, without the shroud of civility covering us, the ugly truth would show. A life without fear of consequences is what we’re seeing now. Here in America, women, the PC crowd, and a lot of celebrities have been given this sacred cow status where they are allowed to literally get away with anything up to and sometimes including murder, even of their own babies. Of course, their biggest fear is that Trump will yank their little red wagon off the rails and knock it down the hill with them in it.
Civilization is indeed always changing. That’s why the first british left for what would become America. That’s why Brexit happened. That’s why MGTOW happened. As for the societal contract…
well, we are near to that point if you ask me. I wouldn’t worry too much about population maintenance tho. We men are already on it. :tup:
one of women’s primary functions as part of the dynamic duo called the Human Race might get outsourced. Artificial womb tech might hit during our lifetime. It’s hilariously funny and somewhat disturbing at the same time.
simply, people get too complacent when there is no wolf at the door. Now the ones that couldn’t do nothing before want to take over because it all looks easy. Wait until shit hits the fans and they’ll shrink back to their holes, wanting the men to do the heavy lifting again. I fear that if things go on in the way that they have for the past 40-50 years, there may not be enough left to do the work when the time comes.
You did NOT make that easy to sit through. I am glad Soup or Man isn’t around now. He’d probably come to my house and break all my keyboards after trying to read through that.
EDIT: No more long posts for the week. I’m sure half the thread wants to break my fingers by now.
The problem with this question is that it doesn’t have a black & white answer. I mean, sure, I can say that by itself, partner count doesn’t have anything to do with bonding issues, but it’s the underlying stuff that’s important,the WHY, not the partner count itself. Divorce rates have nothing to do with the amount of people each partner fucked and everything to do with money and psychological issues. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has SOME sort of psychological issues that play into their relationships, and I’d say almost all relationship issues can be boiled down to psychological roots. There are a multitude of reasons why people have as many partners as they do and that’s where the important stuff lies. You seem to want guarantees, but you’re not buying a car. Go on some dates. If you like the person, get to know them better, if you don’t, move on. The best guard against being with the wrong person is self awareness and knowing enough about people to be able to see red flags in someone else before they’re a danger to you.
Tried to holla at a girl at work. My friend tells me “she’s got like 6 kids!” I thought that was an exaggeration. This Latina chick is tiny and young-looking, like late-20’s tops. So I talk to her and yeah… her oldest son is 17. Youngest is 6. WTF? Bitch probably had her first kid at like 13 or some shit. And never stopped having them. Coworker was right. She literally has 6 kids by 3 different fathers. :bluu:
I noped out of that so fast, but damn I would like to manhandle the fuck outta her. Looks can be deceiving. AWALT.
I just read up on MGTOW, thanks to this thread. I was like, Urban Dictionary, what the fuck is a MGTOW?
Good shit.
The men and women who have been raised to expect men to take care of it have it wrong, unfortunately.
I’ve been clear up front about splitting the check on dates. I’ve been lucky to meet women who agree with that and have been raised in a place where they can and do take care of themselves.
This had made for good relationships where we’re in it together.
If MGTOW can help other places change their societal expectations, good on them.
Mountain men? Some people simply prefer a life without the ills of a modern society. They may not even know of MGTOW, much less be one.