After an SPD Biridie gunna need a gurney!
This is probably common knowledge but i found out you can throw birdie when he’s doing his air grab (Bull Revenger) this does better damage then jab & you can position yourself by throwing closer to the corner. For some reason i have a hard time reacting by neutral jumping. You also can’t throw the EX version of his air grab. This is annoying matchup still, i hate the banana & Birdie has good range normal, good health, good damage, & speed…Also his V-trigger seem to last forever.
This match is ~impossible~
Birdie’s using the banana offensively (AKA not putting it down and sitting back) can just do so unpunished and I have no idea how to deal with them.
At a range let them turtle, if closer you have to try and punish it. It’s a slow startup and easily reactable. If they do a high startup move and whiff, cr Mk it to get rid of it.
If you can’t, back off and allow them their space. They earned when you gave them the opportunity to use it.
I go in like an idiot against Birdie. The last thing Birdie wants is Gief in his face. They just wanna dictate the pace with can/banana nonsense so I just play dumb and try to kill him asap before he can start his trap bs. I’d rather die in this mu playing super aggressive then trying to play patient. Yet another terrible mu for us imo.
I can’t punish it. That’s the problem. He just pushes me towards the corner with his vastly superior normals, and for every few steps he pushes me back he drops another banana peel. I can’t interrupt it (It’s about as easy to react to as a lightning bolt.) and once it’s down I can’t challenge it with normals because even if I hit him I’ll slip on the peel. And of course jumping is also impossible since he has the best AA in the game and you then land on the peel again giving Birdie a full combo. I’ve had Birdies literally banana peel me to death (as in kill me with the actual peel) for the fun of it.
That’s literally the only way I’ve ever been able to beat Birdie. First round Jump in HK, second round EX Siberian Express from the start. Just going absolutely ham and hoping that the coin flip falls in my favour ever single time.
His normals are very strong. But walk the line of where they connect and where they don’t. Whiff punish like a mad man. This is prolly a 5.5-4.5 in birdie’s favor. The peel is strong but it’s not God mode.
Figure out when he likes to use it and find ways to stuff it or work around it. There’s no magical answer in this situation but to figure out what you are doing wrong.
Here is the breakdown i promised. So, Birdie vs Zangief. Im going to break the matchup down to different zones or situations.
The struggle of neutral game against Birdies gigantic buttons and AA:
Do not, i repeat do not press buttons at mid to longrange. Your only button should be cr.jab at jab range. Maybe standing HK at maxrange to fish for CC if you like to yolo. If you try play footsies there with standing MK for example, you are going to eat standing mp xx bullhead. Thats 177 damage, you lose all positioning and Birdie can setup free can. Birdies standing mp is 7 frames, has almost no wiff recovery and will stuff your buttons. Birdies standing mk is also very annoying for Zangief to deal with. It can actually catch your forward jump while you are airbone, because of Zangiefs giant hurtboxes. Birdies cr.mk is spacing tool, that puts you on mp xx bullhead range on hit, or block. So dont try to walk forward after that, you usually get tagged. Birdies sweep is very very dangerous. Zangief cannot punish it at max range. Good Birdie player will just sweep your charged standing HP on reaction, so dont rely on it. If you jump and Birdie anti-airs you, you are put to 50/50 situation. You have to jump at Birdie at some point, but dont put yourself to bad situation without reason. Everybody also knows how bad can and banana peel are for Gief to deal with. Your V-Skill is useless, Zangief cannot flex and punish any of Birdies normal. Birdie can just punish the flex with jumping grab anyway.
So, how you actually win?
Gameplan, the (Yung) Art of reading:
The thing is, you dont have to go in on Birdie like a madman. Just chill where his buttons dont reach you or at max range where you can block them. Birdie CANNOT rushdown Zangief at neural. If Birdie-player is a nut and jumps at you for no reason, just AA him with standing jab/lariat. Standing jab puts Birdie at meaty/SPD 50/50, lariat for damage.
Look for patterns, a way to get you in. Does Birdie sweep at pattern? Maybe f+mk over it and SPD? Far jumpin HK beats Birdies cr.mp, he must use standing mp to AA. Check if the Birdie knows that. Does Birdie react to dashes? Could you possibly dash LP SPD/EX SPD? You are going to eventually get in, even once in a round is enough. If you land LP SPD, just walk forward and see how Birdie wakes up. You cannot pressure him anyway, see what his habits are. When you land that EX SPD/HP SPD, its vortex city from there. Birdie has to guess if you are going for command grab or meaty. He has invincible to throws command grab himself, but it loses to meaties. EX Bullhorn loses to SPD. You need to make the right reads. 2-3 right reads and you win the game. Thats a life on Zangief. If you read wrong, well… that cannot be blamed on MU, just a wrong read that happens.
This part is IMPORTANT. If you have a big lifelead, just chill at mid to longrange. Like i said, Birdie cannot open you up if you stay solid. He can EX Bullhead in and cancel to V-Trigger, but that doesnt really matter. Birdie gets also his damage from opponent being reckless or reads. "Yo, ya saing that Birdie cannot open you up? How about those banans, cans, jumping command grabs and random chains??"
That brings me to next portion:
How to deal with Birdies breakfast and chainy stuff:
Random chain is punishable by jump in. Just hold upforward when you block it and to combo that suits your range.
When Birdie bananas, dont do anything. Dont go in. Just wait it out outside the max range of his sweep. He cannot go in on you, just respect the banana
and ignore it. By the way, if Birdie plants random bananas constantly at neutral, just jump HK that startup. Its mad long.
The energydrink can of doom can be tricky. Dont get walked to corner. I usually just walk forward and block. AA Lariat if Birdie tries to jump on you after blocked can, normals
get stuffed there.
And our favorite, the jumping grab AKA infinite, unblockable or Bull Revenger.
Neutral jump those on reaction, full combo punish. Remeber when i said that Birdie cannot rush you down if you are solid?
This is the move Birdies do when trying to get a comeback. EX Version in particular. You should never get hit by this gimmick.
I still get hit by EX when my brain freezes, but look for it if you are turtling Birdie out.
Birdie has no real meaties mid-screen. If you get hit by HK chain or bullhead, concentrate and look for cans/gimmicky stuff.
After forward throw Birdie gets standing HP meaty, nothing to be feared. After LK chain its 50/50, he can pressure you with normals or command grab.
If you get hit by EX Bullhead and put in to corner, good luck. Birdie gets meaty on everything and if in V-Trigger, his damage is insane.
Timeouting Birdie is legit tactic. Just have the lifelead and play as solid as you can. Hopefully its good enough.
EDIT: Almost forgot V-Trigger. Basically use it in punish combo or try to catch Birdies limb/ banana throw at neutral. Is not that good utility wise in this MU.
Edit: I wrote this to original matchup thread about a month ago, but i post it also here. Easier to find all information at one place.
Hassun did you ever try jumping on the banana on startup like I suggested?
I have and it has just gotten my hit by a full combo or anti-air into mix-up every time. I don’t know how I’m supposed to jump on the Banana when Birdie is standing right next to it. You jump on the Banana and you get hit or have to guess. Hell you’re at the range when jumping at all gets you hit because Birdie massively outranges Gief and he has great anti-airs on top of that.
Yeah I read this one in the original thread and I’m trying to apply it. (Thanks btw.) Sadly the way you cover the banana is not how Birdie are using the banana against me. Doing nothing against the peel just gets me pushed further back into the corner. It’s basically an area denial tool.
Birdie also never has to rush Gief down so him not being able to is not really an issue either way. Gief needs to get in on him and he just needs to not allow that to win. And of course he has the tools to never let Gief in at all and then some. The only way I can see for Birdie to lose this match-up is when he tries to rush you down or get in your face for whatever reason. He just doesn’t have to and some of my opponents have made that very clear to me. It’s kind of the like the Chun-Li match-up actually. She has better buttons than Birdie but in exchange Birdie has far more life and of course does waaaaaay more damage.
I call that match-up at least a 6-4 and probably a 7-3. Not even close to a 5.5. It’s no surprise Snake Eyez got bodied in pools by a relatively unknown player who was using Birdie. This match-up is in the top 4 worst match-ups for Gief in the entire game. Maybe top 5 depending on how Guile shakes out.
You may be jumping too late; it has to be done as soon as you see him start to eat, not when the banana is already out. If you do it quick enough he doesn’t have time to do anything except press a button, which means you only have to block and not guess.
Try it out in training mode. Set Birdie to do the banana and then walk up command grab. If you time it right, you should be able to jump on the banana, block and jab him out of the grab.
Gief can keep Birdie behind the banana. Just cr.jab at max range and AA his jumping if he tries to use banana as rushdown shield. Rolling can is like moving banana. And as Chief has said, you can jump on the banana and block it.
And what comes to jumping on Birdie…
In training mode, see where Birdies standing mk max range is. At that range, if you jump and Birdie whiffs the buttons, you either land a clean jump-in or Birdie has to block and eat your mixup. Use different jump timings and normals, jumping jab and short trade frequently with his cr.mp
Like i wrote, standing hk beats Birdies mp buttons at VERY max range because of input priority system in SFV. Just dont do it too close or predictably, you eat backfist xx bullhead.
Your V-Reversal is important against Birdie also. You can turn the tides if he tries to meaty hk you after Anti-air. Just knock him down and mix-up him to death.
My data from long sets (100 games at one sitting, 4-7 times a week) i have played with my friend who is 8000lp Birdie, suggests that the matchup is approximately 6,5-3,5 for Birdie. Its not unwinnable, but still favors Birdie greatly. My friend says that MU is not free by any means. I can post some of our matches, just need to remember to record next time.
Thanks for the advice! (It’s good to see someone else here who thinks that the match is at least 6.5/3.5. )
I’ve been playing with an ultra bronze birdie in casuals and I manage to win about 1 round every 2 games. Usually I don’t get in and lose with him having at least 75% hp, sometimes even a Perfect.
I just can’t get in on him at all.
My problem remains the same though, Birdie pushes me back with his superior footsies and can/banana. Then he puts the banana on the ground and stands a little bit behind it. This effectively blocks me from doing anything at all. It’s like a creeping wall pushing you further and further into the corner. I can’t jump onto the banana because Birdie is close enough to it that he can punish that jump. I can’t iron muscle walk into the banana because it once again puts me in extreme danger. Due to Birdie being right behind it.
The can beating lariat and V-trigger is also a huge concern when it comes to my ability to turn the tide in the match.
I hope this illustrates the kind of Birdie playstyle that keeps continually destroying me.
you lp spd him at these range?
Sadly he’s not standing THAT close. He’s also standing close to the banana, not necessarily close to me.
I’ll try to draw it to make it easier to understand:
I’m going to make a video showing how you can jump on the banana
Sorry the text is so hard to read; the transparency didn’t seem so high when I was previewing the vid.
Thanks for the strat. My problem is when it’s already out though. I mean if you can react to it coming out it’s a very different situation indeed.
That’s the thing; you can’t let him put it out. Try to put your focus on nullifying the banana. Once you do that, the Birdie will start to play footsies more. When that happens, then yea he’ll be able to get a banana out every now and then because you’re paying more attention to footsies, but that’s okay. As long as he isn’t constantly getting them out and making you lose ground it should be more of an inconvenience than crippling.
I’ll try my best.