Everything you got in here, so we can finish this quickly !
Wanting to see what Birdie players think about the Laura matchup :We need to wait for a thread to be created
Birdie Frame data (when available) : Here
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Someone explain this match up; seems like a free win to Birdie. You can’t jump at him cause of his AA. Keep away sparks leads to chain grabs. Keep away period can result in him rolling the can and then you’re stuck unless you burn bar to get armor. Mix ups against his command grab are rough and inconsistent (my fault?). I missed a lot of AA chances, but they wouldn’t have done enough damage to really matter in the long run. (momentum change MAYBE).
Well I’m no expert on the match up, but here’s some of my thoughts on it.
Close Range:
The Good:
This is where Laura shine’s in this match up. Birdie does not have any 3 frame normals which means at +0, he has to respect her st.lp. Since st.lp is +2 on guard, this also means that st.lp, st.mk or st.lp, st.mp can be used as frame traps. And since st.mp is +3 on block that means st.lp,st.mp,cr.hp can also be used a a two chance frame trap at the right range. You can also mix this up with st.lp, mk.SunsetWheel, as again, +2 on guard st.lp means 6 frame SunsetWheel will beat his st.lk or similar 4 frame normal clean. You might want to use lk.Sunsetwheel if your not sure about the distance, but mk definitely works at point blank after a blocked st.lp (I’ve tested in training), while I’ve not been able to get hk.SunsetWheel to land. Of course you still have the usual st.lp,st.lp,lp.bolt hit confirm as well.
The Bad: Birdies command throw does beat both yours, and your normal throw, at +0, as its only 5 frame start up, so use throws up close when not at advantage at your own risk, but that doesn’t mean you can’t, or shouldn’t, part of the beauty of her normal advantage of him at this range is that if he does respect it, you can then mix him up by throwing instead. Still, just be aware that they are a pretty big risk as just about anything Birdie does short of blocking at this range is probably going to beat any of your throws. Also be aware that unlike Laura, Birdie does have an ex move thats armored from frame 1, ex bull horn, so he does always have that as an option, but its worth noting that Laura’s st.lp completes in 12 frames, while ex bull horn has 15 frames of start up, so if both are activated immediately at +0, you still have time to block, and ex bull horn is -19 on block. He could potentially use it during your frame traps, but its a negative edge move, so atleast he can’t really mash it out, and if he isn’t frame perfect, st.mp after a +2 blocked st.lp is 15 frames (17 total frames-2), so even one 1 frame off and you can block and score a punish so its a big risk to him to even try it.
Mid Range:
The Good:
Not really much good to say here, this is basically the range you don’t want to be at in this fight as far as I can tell. Its worth noting that only his light normals are plus on block, but most that are negative push you far enough that they’re effectively unpunishable as far as I can tell.
The Bad: Birdies normals far out range Lauras, even his lights can often hit you at ranges that are largely outside of your buttons ranges, and his throw has good enough range that he can actually catch you with it at ranges where you’re not even close to being able to throw him. His bull slider is especially frustrating since its -5 on block, but pushes you just far enough away that cr.mp won’t hit (from what I can tell, even if he does it at point blank range). You can land your CA on block reversal though, so be mindful of your CA status if your against a Birdie player who is abusing bull slider. You’re goal should generally be to either get through this range to close range, or to bide your time just outside this range and hope Birdie comes to you.
Long Range:
The Good:
Long range is largely a stalemate, but if it is, its one that heavily favors Laura. Unlike Laura’s bolt, Birdie’s Bull Head has no “safe-ish” version, most versions being -10, his hp version being only -5. In previous tests I’ve found that cr.mp -> mp.bolt works wonders as a punish. His V skil seems like a good idea to him at the time a lot, but as long as you can stay within mp.bolt range, the massive start up of his v skills allow you to relatively easily mp.bolt him on reaction to any v skill and catch him during the start up. Conversely, Birdie’s Chain Throw has pretty fast start up, but is a staggering -23 on block, again allowing you to punish with mp.bolt on block (or ex in either case if you need the extra range or damage). The key at this range is staying in at least ex.bolt, preferably mp.bolt range at all times until you find the opening to make your move through mid range into close range. Also, this probably goes with out saying as its true for all characters, but be aware of Birdies dolphin dive (Revenger) at this range as birdie players LOVE to throw it out. It can’t hit you in the air and has lots of recovery, so just neutral jump on reaction and punish for big damage. One last thing of note, because st.lp is soooo good for laura against Birdie in this match up at close range, even at +0, its arguably okay to occasionally try to v-skill (volty line) your way in. While he can certainly still punish on block if he’s paying attention, if you land the volty line laura is now up in his face at +0, something thats normally not overwhelmingly good, but is a lot more so in this match up.
The Bad:
There are ranges at which Birdie can hit you, or set up his v skill, and you can’t hit him (outside mp.bolt or ex.bolt), and at these ranges Birdie is technically at the advantage simply because you have no way of punishing him for doing whatever he wants. Still, his options of what he can actually do to you at these ranges are limited so its not the end of the world if he catches you at this range, just don’t stay at this range. The biggest thing to watch out for/not do, is throw out random claps while in chain throw range, the clap won’t reach him, and the tiny bit of meter your building isn’t worth the risk of him grabbing you with his chain.
V-Factor: I’d say that Birdie’s V skills and V trigger are generally a little more useful then Laura’s (debatable for sure). Birdie becomes an absolute beast in V trigger do to his massive damage and speed boost, as well as the fact that just about everything he can do becomes armored. However, its worth noting that I believe all of his specials become less safe as well (bull head for example now being at best -7 on block) so it may be worth taking a more defensive stance, especialy outside throw range. ex, charged, or v triggered claps also become a little more useful simply do to their multi-hit propertys that blow up his armor, but he’s still got his chain throw so use these wisely.
Final Thoughts: I think a lot of people attribute this match up to being largely in Birdies favor, and maybe it is, I personally haven’t played enough high level Birdies to truly evaluate the match up, but at least on paper I don’t really think its quite as bad as some people make it out to be. To me the key is leveraging laura’s superior normal speed to bully Birdie at close range, and not being afraid to occasionally risk an ex bolt or volty line read at mid range to “get in”. Because to me, thats where the match up is won and lost, if you try to out footsie Birdie at mid range, he’s probably going to win, and the longer he keeps you out, the more likely he is to win, so some times its worth taking a few calculated risks to try to get in at advantage (or even just +0), rather then let Birdie dictate the match at his range. Just be careful that your getting in at at no worse then -1, at -2 (such as from a blocked lp.bolt) the close range completely shifts in his favor do to his 5 frame command grab, and make absolutely sure you’re aware of not only what Birdies options are, but what the best punishes to them are, when at long range.
No expert as well… but pretty much everything said by DanTheTimid is legit. What I would like to emphasize is being close is where you want to be while mixing it up with various specials and cross-ups. Keep him guessing and don’t give him a chance at being out of range with your pokes/specials. At that range, he will slap you around and getting back into range is troubling.
being close never helps me, eventually my block strings must end and birdie can just spam his super long cr jab which forces me into the mid range where he gets to push any button he wants and if I try to do pokes, any whiff ends in me getting dived at.
doesn’t matter what character it is, once they push me into footsies range, laura is free. anyone who’s serious about the game will be able to react jab on laura’s dash and it forces her to do more jump ins than other characters.
I know the feeling and it’s frustrating but your best bet when pushed out of close range is to block and get out. Unless they have a big lead, the birdie player has to risk chain grabs, dolphin dives, bull rush, and v skill to get at you which can all be punished either on reaction or whiff. Once you have your in, try to make it count. But yeah, his normals are very annoying.
Birdie is one of my favorite matchups, I do think it’s in Laura’s favor. Birdie is tough when he has a bunch of meter and V-Trigger, but he’s so damn slow and readable, I think it’s an uphill battle for him. If you read him doing V-Skill, you can just forward dash V-Skill overhead for a counter hit from even farther away than MP bolt can hit him, and if you’re V Triggered you can do this from nearly full screen away on reaction. Of course, you can also EX bolt through his can and banana as well.
Once you take away his V skill what can he do? Lunge grab is reactable with a simple neutral jump. His normals you can shut down with claps, especially EX clap, to back him into a corner, and if he likes to throw out heavies you can punish with EX bolt on reaction. You can jump on him, as j.FP can beat or trade with his d.MP if you catch him right. His defense is ok, because he has an armored move and a throw invincible grab, but you can overcome those. His oki game is basically weak confirm into LP bullhead or a command grab, one good read on command grab gets you out and a huge punish. Just block until he starts using command grabs, and once he does start neutral jumping because even if you eat a few bullhead combos the punish and escape will more than make up for it. Plus V Reversal gets you out of at least two blocked combos.
I just don’t see how Birdie wins this matchup consistently. A lot needs to go right for him.
I think one of the things that made this matchup a little easier learning how to punish his bullheads. It felt like I was either out of reach or doing too little damage before I looked it up. Here is what I learned:
LP and MP Bullhead are -10 on block and should always be punished with either s.hp or c.hp. This almost goes for all ranges. I think there might be a very minor exception with a perfectly spaced bullhead, but from my quick tests, hp should do the job for the most part.
HP Bullhead is -5. You should be able to almost always get it with c.mp. The longer movement of the HP Bullhead should put them in range unless they are able to achieve that perfect spacing.
EX Bullhead is -5 however, it leaves him out of your normal range almost completely. I think s.hk is the only move that reaches, but is too slow to punish. I tested c.mp, s.hp, and c.hp. They all do not reach him after the ex version. S.hp will crush counter if he pushes fast buttons to keep pressure. It then becomes a guessing game. They could wait for you to stick a normal out that won’t hit him if he does nothing and whiff punish that. Vtrigger also changes things as it adds a hit of armor to ex bullhead. So online gimmicks include doing another one right after to absorb whatever you throw out.