It kills me to see Vega players throw out random EX-FBA’s on each other, especially during block strings. It pains me ever more to see the opposing Vega player let it go by unpunished.
As for POM, I’m not going to really mess with it until super. I’m not going to train myself to use it a certain way if there could be frame changes in Super.
Ok I now understand your reasoning laxlight. Although when people spam stuff during Vega’s loose blockstring I just CH them to death. I personally like to use POM to get closer to the opponent from my loose block string, in the distance that CH would miss, since if you miss with CH you are vulnerable, and if they think that you will use CH and wait then POM will work.
Also I do understand your anti mash POM situation now and I do that on occasion as well. If you are close enough where CH will hit but you will be hit out then POM can go over that attack and counter the opponent. Makes perfect sense.
The main important factor that everyone is worried about is the frames of advantage after hitting the opponent. Who gets an advantage after hit, you or the opponent? As Kouryu pointed out earlier if you do CH from certain distances you can actually get up to +3 on block, and -1 from hitting with the first frame. So if you apply that same logic to POM, then at the very least you will be -5 up to -2 frames on block, BUT -1, up to +2 on hit. When hitting a crouching opponent i am almost certain you get at least -3 frames on block or -2 frames.
After testing this it appears that on hitting a crouched opponent who is blocking you are at -3, and hitting a crouched opponent who is not blocking you may be at +1. So for people who don’t have a 3 frame attack it could be fairly safe… until super that is… In super since it will be an overhead, people will start standing to block it and if the properties stay the same that means that then you will receive a -4 on block or -5, which will be easy to punish.
I finally got those three nicovideo matches on my channel without any sound lag.
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EDIT: Thanks for helping me out on the first one, Worm.
nothin special but it felt good to play after like a 6+ month hiatus
[media=youtube]XfupvsHdVy0[/media]
Correct me if I’m wrong, my understanding of frame data isn’t that great, but from what I’m understanding with what Laxlight is saying is that the POM will hit as a counter-hit, and if I understand correctly, counter-hits usually gives you a few extra frames of advantage… so that’s why using it in this situation is relatively safe then just throwing out a POM in hopes that it will hit.
exactly!
Well I have attempted to hit with anything after a counter hit POM in training mode and have not been able to link any 4 frame attacks, so I doubt it gets to + 4. Either way though if you hit or counter hit you should be at the very least at be -1 through +2 but most likely +1 if they crouch so its safe if you hit pretty much, just not safe if they block you.
listen,no one in the current build can punish a pom on block or hit<EDIT>if you use it the way i said you should</EDIT>.so i’d say you’re just being paranoid.
I just tested it in training mode… If the opponent stands up and blocks POM anyone can counter, but if they crouch and block, then only a 3 frame attack can punish you. If you look at the information that Kouryuu gave on CH it makes sense for there to be -5 to -2 frames on block depending on how you block.
Test this-
training mode set the dummy to crouch lp for balrog/ryu/ or chun. Input the cr lp so it inputs the buttons as fast as possible.
then put the dummy on crouch and block all.
do POM and as soon as you see it hit turn the dummy on replay.
hold block for Vega
the end result= you can’t defend
Then do the same thing but have the dummy stand and block and you’ll see that even 4 frame moves can hit.
listen,no one in the current build can punish a pom on block or hit if you use it in the way that i said you should.so i’d say you’re just being paranoid.
and finally,i dont think you even understand the context in which i said pom is useful.it is NOT a bnb.its something you use to make the st lk shenanigans practical.so if you dont like the idea of using the pom frame trap,then by all means refrain from using it.i only explained why i played the way i played in the video.and let me tell you something,in my experience i cant think of the last time where i was actually punished for using the stlk pom blockstring(unless i was predictable).
I mean, I had a metric ton of things I did with sakura that weren’t handled correctly by my opponent, so i didn’t get punished for them. But I would tell the opponent what to do and they would gradually learn, and evolve. If pom is safe from certain distances, it seems useful, if not then I personally don’t like it on offense. too little reward too much risk.
As Maj said in one of his newer articles, it’s probably not too smart to get hung up on frame data that much.
Nicely done! Solid play there, as always. I remember when you, Bebop and Jarekov shared their Vega knowledge with us… I think that was about a year ago. Man, so much time has passed.
dude even if he knows that you are going to do a pom on his block,there is no way in hell that he would have the reflexes to punish you for that.i mean,hell!even if he somehow miraculously manages to mash lp at that speed to land it in a 3 frame window,he definitely wont be able to chain it into any moves.remember that you CANNOT cancel or link lps into any other move at that speed.(not even balrog)
if you look into the charts carefully,there are so many other moves which have frame disadvantages of -2,-3 etc which cannot be
punished practically on block everytime.
its getting more and more clear that some people on this board have messed up philosophies on frame datas,so it would be great if you guys can actually try it out in a match and then comment.
Bank prolly doesn’t want me spreading this video around… but personally i think it’s a marvelous vid that we happened to record with an east coast head who plays an on point akuma: [media=youtube]hMiECtM_Huk[/media]
in fact both players did pretty good during this set, i just think Bank doesn’t want people seeing him get raging demoned square in the face… but it’s still hilarious, and a very good matchup so feel free to critque Bank’s claw play and what have you…
uhm…where they drunk?blind men playing maybe?
Don’t get me emotional in here remembering the good ol’ days
Which reminds me, where the hell is Rizhall anyway?
I was merely stating the facts about it being punishable on block. Also I don’t understand how you can underestimate someone’s reflexes to such a degree. The move has 19 startup frames and 35 total frames. If you do nothing but hold down and block and get hit by POM and KNOW the exact frame at which you can hit punch and not mash, then you can punish it. Its not reliable for most but some people can pull off just frame maneuvers more often than others.
The problem isn’t that though. For many people I bet they won’t know the timing sure, and if you mash, then you will miss the timing and get grabbed, sure. The problem is that in Super it will be an overhead, so people will stand to block it, which means that if the properties are the same, then people will have 5 or 4 frames to punish it which is reliable for the most part.
In high level play I doubt people would like to use POM if this is the case. Why throw out a 19 frame move that only does 60 dmg, but if the opponent blocks it you get punished for a third of your life? It will be the same as blocking balrog’s swing blow. If you know its coming and block it, then you can punish accordingly. except the main difference is that balrog could actually mix his swing blow with other attacks to make it semi useful, and does a ton of dmg/stun if he hits.
Also frame data is very useful in telling you what is physically possible and physically impossible. Its all up to you to test it out to see if its practical but still knowing its possibility is a good start.
I have been using POM for a long time already, and I have found it to be fairly useful because if you mash you will always miss the timing and you get grabbed. Just like if you mash lp with Vega you won’t link since its a just frame. But the thing is that most people probably just don’t know how to deal with the move, which is why its been effective for me.
However being right next to an opponent with -3 frames is not a good position to be in with Vega. His options are very limited.
I never condition people to stop pressing buttons. Go ahead, throw out whatever the fuck you want, I’ll just keep beating your shitty-ass option select techs. I’d rather they throw out random jabs and shorts than turtle properly. PoM is a recipe for disaster, you get shit damage and get OWNED if it gets blocked. I’ll probably still use it once in a while, cause you’re right laxlight, it’s a good option, but it’s not solid. AlexLKD is right, -3 is balls. Even if you can’t get punished there’s no point in being Vega and putting yourself at a disadvantage frame wise. It’s a losing situation.
I’m with Joz, POM is just not worth it in this game at all. Wait until Super to find good uses for it. POM in this game is like crossover Cosmic Heel. At first your opponent is unfamiliar with it might get hit with crossever shennanigans, but after a while, they learn to look for it, and you’ll just end up putting yourself in a bad position.
Finding uses for it now is admirable, but until we get frame data for it in super it could be time better spent elsewhere.
rizhall converted to cody-ism