nah hit/blockstun stays constant regardless of what active frame you land on. It’s actually the reason meatys act the way they do. the hitstun is just shifted/delayed until the move connects. it can be delayed as many active frames as the move has. However, FADC doesnt appear to care what active frame it occurs on. it just always picks up at the recovery. So if you do a meaty you only get your normal meaty frame advantage. you cant actually control what specific active frame you FADC on, which is good because delaying the FADC causes you to lose frame advantage.
as far as the sMK, it’s very possible that that move was intended to be a focus attack
and if LP version RCF got +3 on counterhit a cHP/sLK should be able to connect after a landing a counterhit LP RCF (+2 +3 = +5). i just spent 5 min trying to get it and nothing. Funny thing is that a 4 framer (cMP) was able to connect. so either the frame advantage of LP RCF is really +1 on hit and counterhit gave it +3, or (more likely) LP RCF is +3 on hit and counterhit gave it +1. Or… counterhit properties were changed and light specials give +2
this would also explain why cHP wont connect after LP RCF since it’s only +4 and not +5 so… i’m not seeing the +3 frame advantage on counterhit.
so there’s another hidden ninja buff.
LP version RCF is now +3 on hit. guess it’s a nerfed version of our old CH kara throw set ups. I’ll update the frame data later today after class.
Now what this also means is that backdash absolutely can not be 22 frames since i can land a 4 framer after LP RCF FADC. so both dashes are 20 frames long now. Another hidden buff.
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OK, so you still have meaties advantage, but the FADC prevents you getting further advantage from active frames.
So it’s always 22+2-20 = +4 on hit, and 22-2-20 = +0 on block.
I don’t know for sure what bonus RCF gets on counter-hit, but what I do now it’s that if a claw as clumsy as mine can combo into cLP after non counterhit FADC, then frame advantage is at least +4, and the calculations are right.
So it’s probably still +0 on block.
Or the counterhit bonus is different. Hard to say. =/
You made sure only last hit of RCF is counter-hit ?
About counterhit bonus, you can link a cMP after a CH last RCF’s hit. Not sure we can conclude it is more than +1 'cause to land it without hitting first RCF’s hit you must be a bit away from the opponent, so it may hit on the 2nd active frame and not the first.
Another thing to take in account, you can combo into FA2 crumple after CH last RCF’s hit. That may require more than +1 as well.
Frame advantage is typically modified by adjusting the hitstun/blockstun of a move as opposed to the actual animation of the move. In this way the majority of the time if one is adjusted then the other is also adjusted. So it wouldn’t suprise me if it’s now + 1 on block.
Yes I made sure it was only the last hit and it was done as close as possible without getting both hits of RCF. Looking at the hit boxes I’m pretty confident it hits on the first active frame regardless of distance.
normal RCF = +3 on hit
Counter hit RCF = +4
Counter hit meaty = +7
RCF FADC = +4
Counter hit RCF FADC = +5
Meaty counter hit RCF FADC = +8
As for the crumple after counter hit, yup. theonly_J found a set up back in vanilla where he would land a crumple and then backlash ultra 1 to rear wall.
But yeah this all makes a lot more sense than the alternative options. But if it really is hitting on the 2nd active frame then something barely possible on last hit of RCF FADC should not be possible from point blank RCF FADC. And since RCF FADC is only + 4 that should mean nothing is possible with Vega since he has no 3 frame move. Since I know I can hit any 4 frame move after RCF FADC, then, I know that the same active frame is occurring for both options. If it was hitting on 2nd active frame then by definition the frame advantage should be + 5 and cHP or sLK should connect after RCF FADC. Since it doesn’t, this reinforces the fact it is hitting on the first active frame. So I still say with confidence that RCF is now + 3 on hit. An easy way to check for + 1 on block is to have an opponent reversal a 4 frame move and see if it beats Vega’s 4 frame normal. Vega vs Vega ST vs cMP is easiest IMO. If cMP can ever beat defending Vega’s reversal ST then it’s + 1. If not and it keeps trading then it’s + 0.
What if CH just nets you an additional +2 on hit? Like, Dudley’s st.hk gives an additional +5 frames on CH, and Vega’s PoM gets no additional advantage IIRC. It doesn’t have to be either +1 or +3, and it fits the scenarios that you described.
Something tricky with ST is that it has now low hurtbox since second frame (approx.), so it may be difficult to oppose it to cMP to compare frame advantage.
Now since that question is bugging us, maybe I’ll do a bit of 60 fps capture to get it straight.
^^
Possibly. But it should be easier to get cHP connect if it was (and I’ve never seen someone achieve this so far), though the fact we can’t achieve it doesn’t means it’s impossible.
Well, cr.hp should be able to connect on counterhit FADC whether it’s additional +1 or +2. Not being able to combo CH RCF FADC (CAAAAAAAPS) cr.hp would mean not being able to link a 4-framer after CH RCF, and well, you obviously can.
all light attacks give +1 frame advantage on hit
all med and hard attacks give +3 frame advantage on hit.
so no duds doesnt get +5. he may be at +5 (+2 on hit +3 for CH) but doesnt get an additional 5 frames of advantage
same for Vega. +0 normally. CH makes it +3
it does connect.
counterhit RCF FADC cHP connects because it’s +5 and cHP has 5 frame startup
non-counterhit FADC cHP does not connect because it’s +4 and cHP has a 5 frame startup.
the counterhit only gives +1 frame advantage.
Trias testing ST… if ST doesnt seem to make sense then i’ll just test cMP vs cMP. I only prefer reversal ST because it will always come out on first available frame.
Dudley’s st.hk is +2 on hit and +7 on counter hit. This is not a 3 frame difference.
Also, please try the following in training mode: Forward throw, split-second pause, counterhit PoM. Easy setup for last frame meaty. If you do get 3 additional frames from CH, you should have no problem linking this into a cr.mp, or even a cr.mk. Do you succeed? I sure as hell never did.
obviously it’s not. The reason I assumed this was correct was because this rule has always 100% of the time i tried it… worked. This includes normals command normals and specials. I could always figure out counterhit combos using this method and it always worked.
as for the PoM meaty ounterhit, i was thinking of SFxT. it’s not happening in AE. although it’s pretty retarded to not give any frame advantage landing a counterhit PoM. even +1 would enable a 4 frame move to connect in your set up but it doesnt. doesnt even work in super. i’d test vanilla but ps3 is dead for the next couple weeks.
as for duds… stomach blow is indeed possible on counterhit and standing jap (which is 3 frames) is not possible on non-counterhit because it’s +2… so. yeah. i was wrong.
RCF is definately not + on block. i cant tell if i’m making RCF frame tight though but i was able to interrupt cMP with cMP, cHP, and cMK before i just gave up. I know i’m not leaving a 3 frame gap so i seriously doubt it’s +1. in all honesty thought i leaning toward it actually being negative.
Edit: -1 to be exact since Chun can now punish it on block with super.
Take in account only MK super is 1+0 frame, LK and HK are 1+1 (according to EH).
And it seems HK (2 framer) can punish it as much as MK. However, you can’t punish with a reversal Guile’s super which startup is 3 frames. There might be a little bias here 'cause I’m not sure Guile’s super is in range at the first active frame.
So IMO it would still be -2 on block and +2 on hit, just as it used to be. =)
That’s (punish data) is a better testing method than ST due to it’s sort of invulnerability to low attacks since 2nd or 3rd frame.
pom counterhit will give you the +3 frames, i never tested meaty pom combo’s, but if it does not work, then do not blame the pom not having extra counter hit frames. The frame data says a pom that hits will give you 0, but maybe that is only true if the last active frame hits?
In that case using it meaty is useless and the move will always be +3 at the very most at counterhit, leaving it uncomboable for Vega. Just good for counterhit setups.
All rcf except for EX are -2 on block, EX is 0 since AE.
But they changed the recovery for EX-rcf, not the hit/blockstun, so with fadc the EX move acts the same as normal rcf, because you skip recovery frames with fadc.
Im getting very frustrated playing SF4 lately , online is my only training ground and the game is so different online…
Vega’s game does not shine much at all in the online enviroment, trying to whiff punish and footsie with even the slightest of extra lag becomes a huge task and im getting very frustrated by that.
Add to that your constantly having to deal with people constantly jumping in like retards and doing throw/ch and it is way more powerfull online since teching and AA (with vega) is much more difficult online.
Not to mention some bad teching habits i bring to my offline game.
Im going to canada cup and seriously considering dropping the game after that or at least dropping playing vega online to save me frustration.
I see perfectly what you mean. It’s not fun to lose to a retard jumping + tick throwing like no tomorrow.
Now, like one of my friend would say, you just have to deal with it.
— The thrower is a retard, and you know it => backdash, bjHP, neutral jump, LK-ST or KKK flip will break through his simple flowcharts as his throws will get predictable
— The thrower is more sophisticated and has low hitting chain blockstrings => crouch tech enough for him to see it, and then block. Chances are that he will go for a frame trap blockstring after you teched once. You will take throws, but also minimize damage and escape sooner or later.
Strangely, invincible reversal does not help that much to defend against this kind of mix-up. I’ve got a (tiny) Cammy, and curiously my Claw’s defense is stronger than hers. @-@
To me, although tech is a weak option (specially online), recognizing strings where you can or can’t tech is one of the keys of a solid defense. =)
I don’t really see how jumping in a slow ass game (even worse than IV, this should go down in fg history lol) is fun. But whatever rocks your boat! XD
I’d be happy for the alpha series to return as well. But these days you’d better not expect Capcom to actually make a good game, so…