marvel tactics

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
1

call helpers in SJ state

don’t know how many people know this but you can call your helper in a SJ state. Lets take magneto as an example. If you do a SJ and the opponent is standing on the ground, as you fall back down to around MAX NJ height you can call your helper as long as that the helper call itself is your last input.

You can’t do shit like SJ state and you reach max NJ height or some form of NJ height then call your assist, attack. The actual assist call is 2nd to last so what happens is that marvel actually takes the assist call away from you and just allows for the normal to happen. Its vital that the assist call is the last thing you input and this technique works with any character.

but stuff like SJ, ADD rh, call psylock before landing will work.

input jacking

this is very easy to try and test vs cable but is applied to the rest of the cast.

what you want to do is have one person pick cable and the other person pick any character. For the guy who doesn’t have cable, just hit jab all day from full screen. Your normal will never make contact.

Now if cable is holding back while you’re throwing that jab out there, it will put him into guard even though nothing is touching him. I call it twitch guard since he’s not actually receiving block stun. Towards the end of recovery off twitch guard, cable CAN NOT input anything. Can’t jump, can’t walk around, can’t crouch, can’t attack, and can’t call helper. He’s a sitting duck just waiting to die. @ a certain point in any characters twitch guard, you can’t input anything. You’re stuck but the thing is, this type of engine dynamic affects each character @ different times. Each characters reacts to twitch guard differently but cable is one of the ones it affects the most. He has a long duration of twitch guard.

When you do this right, the cable player will see cable twitch the go back to guard.

Ideally, what this means that mag or storm can create a wiff scenario to allow for input jacking to occur. Then react to it. If the opponent gets input jacked while standing high, they can’t block low due to the opponent now allowed to input anything. If they get input jacked while blocking low, they can’t block high.

oh yea forgot to mention, this technique has some air properties. If theres something that causing blockstun, you can’t air dash back naked. You have to throw a normal, then cancel out of it to air dash back.

with this type of technique in place and the ability to see it, it happens a few times a session. To prevent it from happening so often, you have to mash it out. Yup, mashing actually helps to not get input jacked so often but @ the same time, mashing in the wrong spot to prevent that will get you CH.

guard cancelling and anti guard cancel

ok for a guard cancel to occur you have to do a few things right. Gotta pushblock and go to neutral. Those have to be done 100% right. Once you’ve activated the GC, what you want to look for are the circles that create block stun. If the circles overlap from one normal to another, you wont be free but if the circles don’t overlap, thats your guard cancel spot and you’ll be released depending on your guard cancel window. The guard cancel window is the period of time you have once you activate the guard cancel to get a guard cancel.

example, guard cancel activated and strider does dash back in s.lp, s.lk, s.mp. you won’t be released till after striders s.mp

example, guard cancel activated and strider does s.lp, s.mp, c.fp. We’ll for strider, the s.lp into s.mp overlaps on block stun but from s.mp to c.fp, the timing on the block stun doesn’t overlap so you’ll be released from that string before c.fp.

anti guard cancel is tad bit trickier. What you basically want to do is allow the pushblock to happen but layer ontop of it. The goal is to basically layer on their entire guard cancel window to cancel it out to force the opponent to try it again. The reason why anti guard cancel is so god like is that the opponent must push block first. It basically gives you the free option to react to it 2nd all day. There’s no yomi game in it. Its either they try it or don’t

2

hmm input jacking is a new one for me. interesting. Seems god like when coupled with Guard Break scenario mind games. Feint a classic guard break, cause twitch, then react to a free high or low??? Does it work like thaT? Can you get jacked midair?

Part of the requirements with SJ state assist calls is that you Must land w/in a set limit (handful of frames) after hitting assist, correct? I remember figuring this out as a way to simplify ROM into assist reset inputs but thought it was known. Theres got to be a way to glitch out this engine bit and get true SJ assists, maybe character specific unfly state bullshat. Wishful thinking.

Edit: also, thanks for posting this, seems like a lot of marvel likes to sit on tech/engine stuff, and for someone like me with a limited exposure to competitive play, its really appreciated. This is always my favorite points of discussion anyway bc there’s always potential to level up the entire cast as the intricate nuances are explored.

**
Joo’s Guard #'s**

Character Guard Stiffness Time

Akuma… [LEFT][/LEFT] 10
Amingo… [LEFT][/LEFT] 8
Anakaris… [LEFT][/LEFT] 9
B.B. Hood… [LEFT][/LEFT] 13
Blackheart… [LEFT][/LEFT] 11
Cable… [LEFT][/LEFT] 25
Cammy… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Captain America… [LEFT][/LEFT]15
Captain Commando [LEFT][/LEFT]15
Charlie… [LEFT][/LEFT]7
Chun-Li… [LEFT][/LEFT]5
Colossus… [LEFT][/LEFT]5
Cyclops… [LEFT][/LEFT]5
Dan… [LEFT][/LEFT]11
Dhalsim… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Doctor Doom… [LEFT][/LEFT]7
Felicia… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Gambit… [LEFT][/LEFT]9
Guile… [LEFT][/LEFT]5
Hayato … [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Hulk… [LEFT][/LEFT]14
Iceman… [LEFT][/LEFT]7
Iron Man… [LEFT][/LEFT]23
Jill… [LEFT][/LEFT]8
Jin… [LEFT][/LEFT]25
Juggernaut… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Ken… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
M. Bison… [LEFT][/LEFT]6
Magneto… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Marrow… [LEFT][/LEFT]15
Megaman… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Morrigan… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Omega Red… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Psylocke… [LEFT][/LEFT]5
Rogue… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Roll… [LEFT][/LEFT]15
Ruby Heart… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Ryu… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Sabretooth… [LEFT][/LEFT]17
Sakura… [LEFT][/LEFT]14
Sentinel… 8
Servbot… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Shuma-Gorath… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Silver Samurai… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Sonson… [LEFT][/LEFT]8
Spider-Man… [LEFT][/LEFT]12
Spiral… [LEFT][/LEFT]9
Storm… [LEFT][/LEFT]20
Strider Hiryu… [LEFT][/LEFT]14
Thanos… [LEFT][/LEFT]15
Tron… [LEFT][/LEFT]13
Venom… [LEFT][/LEFT]21
War Machine… [LEFT][/LEFT]21
Wolverine (Bone)… [LEFT][/LEFT]10
Wolverine (Ad.)… [LEFT][/LEFT]11
Zangief… [LEFT][/LEFT]6

3

A lot of what I’ve seen on the boards here and some things I’ve had brewing in training I recently found out are all rooted in the same engine phenomenon. Figured I’d share what I’ve been observing.

Horizontal/Dummy Tracking Issues

Awhile ago I found a weird glitch pertaining to what I thought to be just two charge characters-- Shuma and Guile. Basic rundown:

Shuma HP throws and charges away, recovers from throw and tries to throw eyes. Nothing happens.

Shuma HP throws, and charges towards, recovers and presses away + P to throw eyes. It works.

Adding to this, Mixah recently posted up about a Spidey / Venom glitch where he was getting opposite inputs whenever he tried to jump in one direction or the other following the kick throw. This got some wheels turning and when I looked at it all four characters have a throw that brings the dummy behind them before throwing them.

Best as I can tell, whats happening is that Marvel sees the dummy tracking as flipping as soon as the character is brought behind your point, and this new point of reference is used up until the throw animation is finished. To push the concept I picked Spidey, HK throw, and then qcb PP. Instead of Ultimate Web Throw, Maximum Spider animated.

It actually makes plenty of sense when you consider what happens when you jump over the dummy and are forced to input a special motion as normal even though you’re facing the wrong way upon landing. It doesn’t look right, but we accept it because its marvel (BAYbee).

**Applications:
**
Marrow: for no good reason, the first half of Marrow’s wall dive seems to flip the dummy tracking point. She has to do an opposite input in order to do her Bone Storm super, so QCB becomes QCF. When she comes off of the wall, it reverts.

Charge Characters: basically this comes down to charge awareness. Whenever the dummy changes sides, whether its your doing or no, the charge direction changes, obviously. The interesting thing is, there are cases where you can replicate the phenomenon you see with the Shuma/Guile HP throw glitch in other situations. I’ll use Shuma again for an ex:

Shuma is facing right…

Shuma launches with df.HK, as they fall he dashes forward and presses and holds left+HK to start a charge, when s.HK ends he presses right+P to throw eyes.

The HK must animate away from the dummy, if the tracking fixes and animates towards them you did it late. Basically when done right, you create a situation that lets you maintain the charge you started before the dummy tracking flipped. This specific example may not be practical, but its a start.

You’ll notice that Guile/Charlie also have to start a fresh charge whenever the dummy switches sides as well. More than that, there’s actually a penalty to the charge bc you have to wait for the game to register the tracking info before youre ready to charge the proper way, so even if you know the right direction to charge, there’s a split-second of transition before your charge time even starts. I don’t have the answer at this point, but if you could find a similar whiff trick as Shuma’s, you could potentially create a setup that utilizes an opposite charge in order to get the fastest possible charge time even when the dummy changes sides.

Chunners (courtesy of RisunoMeijin): not exactly a positive application, but Ris noticed a funky Chun instance of wonky tracking. With Chun, shom against the wall, air throw reset. If they early tech out, they get sent midscreen instead of back into the corner. Wtf?

4

Nice thread, I love this kind of stuff! Thanks shoultzula and eczangief so far for your findings, it is interesting to me.

eczangief: I have been wondering why when i hp throw with colossus and try to do a super afterward it is always reversed, but now it makes sense with your explanation.

example: I throw hp throw sentinel with colossus, then do hyper armor on his recovery. head dive comes out instead.

I have wondered about the actual mechanics behind this for a while, but it’s starting to make sense.

and shoult: That calling assist while in sj mode is very interesting. i will do some testing as i have never heard of or tried this before. We should make some practical applications of these kind of things somehow.

5

when I showed it to mixup, he told me that it could be used in SJ falling stuff. Usually, someone will try to mix you up upon landing from a SJ but you can call your helper in the air and as you land, the helper will give you protection from a crossup.

However, that particular technique is how I make spiderman kinda good. I do a lot of SJ, AD, sj.lp, sj.rh, call tron, dash in c.lk, mixup option set. Spidey’s mediums aren’t that good because they got horrible recovery but by doing the sj state helper call glitch, I can use a single light attack and an early tron call to allow for a perfect layer. I’m closer where instant overhead is an option and a slight delay will give me ambiguous falling sj.rh out of an air dash.

It goes across the board though. Usually, to call your helper and get highs, you gotta stay in NJ mode where you can be guard broken using it during SJ’s takes away that risk. The one bad thing about SJ state helper call is that they must be the last move so the option tree for that technique will be pretty small but @ the same time still useful.

6

ahh, I didn’t realize Collosus had the buggy throw too. Its strange bc his throw glitch isn’t as annoying-- tested it for the inverted jump glitch a la Spidey but it didn’t behave like that. Looking at it again though, you do get swapped inputs but its takes almost a just-frame scenario to see it happen.

7

I have a very good question to ask. Does anyone know why you can block shit the wrong way?

example, magneto does c.lk on me and I hold dwnfwd and I block it. Funny thing is, all logic says I get hit but I get a handful of these a session. Its not auto guard either because its the opening sequence to a rush down string. I just want to know why I can block shit the wrong way sometimes. The other day I blocked an overhead holding fwd, the I held dwnfwd to block low and it let me block hi\lo the totally wrong way.

Eventually if it can be maniuplated, I want to be able to make magnus just a hi\lo character. His ability to xup has gotta be tamed some how?

8

guard stun in marvel blocks for you if something is too fast. I learned this in 04 when i was doing mag video. i’d try to do cr.lk as meaty as possible --> sj addf cr.lk and the dummy would be blocking the wrong way but it’d still actually guard the attack.

>input hijacking probably wont work vs players that know the game.

9

A big problem ive noticed with twitch guard/input jacking is chun vs. strider.

The plan is to be able to stay in air for whole activation and more, in n.jump with the ability to call capcom.

Only problem is activation stops you from jumping up/back >.> so triple jump wall jump becomes hard to abuse if you aren’t cornered already.

Still have the ability to run away, call cap when he chases you up; its just not near as good as I first thought it would be.

10

hmmm i think we’re still safe. could be said for a lot of tactics that work even though they shouldnt :]

11

Yeah also i’m pretty sure you can assist at the end of your roll. Just hit it before a second before you roll behind the opponent and it will pop up behind them. Or sometimes upon wake up so you can assist before getting stuck in blockstun.

12

input jacking works with other attacks that whiff besides the jp doesn’t it?

13

as a general rule, works with any attack (normal or otherwise) that has hit frames.

**One more Dummy Tracking bit:
**

Anybody with a decent wave-dash can create funny assist crossups by manipulating the way the game reads the tracking info.

As long as you are dashing at the point where you cross under an opponent midair, you can maintain same side tracking as long as you keep wave-dashing. You can also normal jump and keep the original tracking orientation. You can even dash under, wave dash into quick normal jump air dash, double/triple jump etc (all facing away), all while maintaining the ability to call an assist from the original side.

The instant you superjump, special, snap (afaik), or super you correct the tracking (move will animate facing properly).

Almost every character should be able to set this up situationally, but some can create the opportunity at will. Classic ex: Magnus can Rom, wave-dash under dump x-up assist, pretty old news.

A good low tier application is anybody who can land a rejump combo, you land wave-dash under reset into assist. Maybe Psy can do this?

Also should be useful in midscreen GB opportunities