Blackheart standing short is sooo good in MSH…jumping strong and standing strong are also about 10x faster than they are in later games.
I don’t know why they toned everyone down so much in MvSF and kept things that way later on. Maybe so the SF characters would have a chance…it’s sad to see Captain America these days compared to how he was in MSH.
It’s interesting how the Marvel characters evolved greatly and sacrificed moves & strategy balances at the same time, and the tiers frequently changing for every new game over the years. Like Psylocke pre-MvC2, she could make multiple images of herself.
Doom last, what?? Granted he isnt the best, but he seems to beat BH pretty bad. in my estimation best case for BH he loses 8-2, worst case 9.5-.5. Doom can pretty much throw safe jumping fierces all day on BH, all BH can do is dash and superjump, dashing just repeats the process of BH blocking, superjump may be able to do something, but in that case Doom wont stay on the ground. Literally every move BH has either has too much startup or not enough range to deal with Doom
So is anyone going to answer my question as to whether there were ever any major(ish) MSH or COTA tournaments? I dont remember any, but the games were popular, so what happened?
Also: Doom is NO WAY #13th absolutely no way.
Since Spider-Dan is pretty knowledgable in all things Marvel, I’ll trust him but I’d still like to hear reasons myself 
Why Doom sucks in MSH:
J.fierce fucking sucks. He barely moves when he does it! This means that you can simply duck it and not get hit, unlike in MVC2. Rocks are worthless, each rock can only hit once (unlike MVC2 where the rocks reset and can hit again after release). This means that if you tried to use rocks, you would see them lose about 15% chip damage, you build 2/3rds of a level, then watch the rocks pass harmlessly through their body as they bust their biggest combo on you.
Doom has no air defense, has shitty air to air attacks, and you can’t combo into low fierce in any remotely practical way. (c.short-c.fierce doesn’t combo, and if you stick out a medium attack in the middle they get pushed out too far).
The only thing Doom can really do is photons (which have a better angle) but he can’t airdash up to establish height advantage, so if opponent jumps with you you are not in a good position.
Doom is last in the game because of all the characters he absolutely cannot fight:
Thanos
Spidey
Wolvie
Cap
Psylocke
These are all in the 8-2/9-1 range. His other matchups aren’t much better.
The only matchup he does really well in is vs Anita, though I will concede he possibly beats Juggernaut. Dunno what you are doing in the BH matchup, Doom cannot stop BH pokes AT ALL, nor touch him air to air or air to ground. The whole j.fierce thing doesn’t work like MVC2, because if BH SJs, and you SJ with him, as soon as Doom presses fierce, he stops moving up; BH continues on his upward arc, landing on Doom’s head (insert whatever bad things you like here).
In addition, Inferno trade with photons is in BH’s favor (not to mention meter-draining properties of electric inferno, and potential combo afterwards).
thanx for the info…spider-dan…unfortunately this thread has made me purchase this game on ebay for the psx…( i know, i know it’s a crap version)…oh well…
Well I was talking about keeping him pinned on the ground and keeping him as far away as possible, and never let him get to poking range. If the jumps are low enough j. fierce will be quick enough for BH not to make up much ground after ducking it, so by the time he got in through dashing, Doom would have meter to j. RH xx Photon Array instead of J. fierce.
But I see your point, thanks for setting me straight:)
Oh yeah, could someone list the infinites in this game? thanks.
Unlike MVC1 or MSF, its hard to list the infinites for MSH cos the combos system is quite loose, meaning there are so many variants on each one the lines become blurred if you see what I mean. Also, like COTA, MSH had a lot of ‘combos’ that the combo counter infuriatingly wont recognise, so its sometimes hard to know if what you have done was avoidable by the opponent.
Off the top of my head the classic infinite that ANYONE can do is wolvies, anywhere vaguely near the corner: launch, air combo holding down ending in forward, roundhouse,/ repeat. spidey has a similar one using his strong launch and comboing into an air web ball / relaunch. cant remember it though.
I take it nobody knows jack shit about any MSH tournaments then? I’d like to know how real results went when things got down and dirty, cos Dans theory fighter isn’t really convincing me… I remember Sega Saturn Magazine editor Rich Leadbetter, who was well known in the UK as an avid MSH/Capcom fan stating in the official play guide that he thought Doom was best, then Anita and Thanos, with the normal ten characters way behind…
I never played Thanos even once, so I can’t say anything about him, but no way is Doom the best!
His jumping fierce actually isn’t that bad, you just can’t use it like you do in MvC2. It is not useful for pinning people to the ground, instead it is good for hitting people out of the mid-high air when they super jump.
Doom doesn’t really have much in MSH. His photons are ok and his photon super does huge damage against Juggs when blocked…other than that not too much going on.
As far as infinites goes, Spideys is launch, slow air combo, finish with jab web ball, hit ground and launch with stand strong again, repeat. Basically when you web them they float up for a sec and you land before they do and can re-launch.
Actually, that doesn’t work. You need to do launch, aircombo into jab web ball, sj.jab-short, land, then relaunch (s.strong). Easiest aircombo to set up the right height for web ball is launch, sj.strong-forward-jab web ball; you don’t have to do it slowly, nor is the timing hard. Frequently, the infinite will “uncombo.”
I haven’t really played this game much.
I was just wondering if the infinity gems played a huge factor in the game… i.e. would the rankings change if they were done without infinity gem???
I don’t believe that works.
The “standard” Wolvie infinite is launch, sj.short-divekick-fierce-rh, land, dashing s.rh, repeat. This will work on any stage, anywhere on the playfield, with exception of Wolvie and BH’s stages (you can’t continue it if you launched them while you were in the corner).
To my knowledge, there were no US MSH tournaments. Marvel games never really had a tournament scene until MVC1.
I guess I would respond to this in a couple of ways:
MSH is, by far, the worst Capcom-developed-and-published arcade translation since the 16-bit days. No serious MSH player would even rank the characters based on the home versions, because the matchups are drastically different.
Unless the editor of the UK Sega Saturn magazine happened to get his hands on a Japanese CPS2 MSH (one of which I happen to own), I humbly submit that he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.
That’s a moot point, however, because from Round 1, Fight! Doom cannot safely remove Spidey from his person. He can’t even establish distance to set up photons. The fact that if Doom attacks in the bottom 3rd of the playfield, he is likely to get launched into infinite, pretty much seals the deal.
Oops…was never really a Spidey player…
The Saturn speed is also really bad, with or without the 4meg cart. The worst are the horizontal beams, especially Magneto disrupter. It is literally impossible to catch anyone with Magneto, Doom or IM beams because the game slows down so much when they come out…it slows to a crawl when Mags does his. Doom’s beam in particular is fast enough to catch people after you force them to block something, as they jump, etc. But in the Saturn version they can always easily see it in time to block. Forget about chipping with IM beam, they will always jump out of the way.
Also Blackheart is basically one walking slowdown. Hitting people with demons is a lot harder because whenever he does anything the game goes crazy…
Also, for some reason if you map a shoulder button to all 3 punches it won’t activate air-dashes with it.
It’s just a real mess.
In a word, yes. Specifically:
This is in addition to the actual gem abilities, some of which (notably Magneto/Jug Space, Shuma Time, Spidey/Cap/Psylocke Power) are very, very good.
In fact, I am a proponent of playing MSH only on 2/3 (not 3/5) because rounds 4 and 5 cannot introduce any more gems to the fight, giving a disadvantage to the characters (mostly the non-pixies) that use Gem ACs to regain control of the match.
Dan: I remember hearing about a BH infinite a long time. It went something like this, launch, inferno, launch, inferno etc… Did that infinite actually work effectively? Or was it not really an infinite at all?
BH infinite is (corner only):
[S.strong, fire or ice inferno] x N
It might not work on Jug.
If you simply do s.strong, HCB+P, the inferno will not connect. (This is why, for a long time, I thought that was a CPU-only combo) You must do s.strong, HCB+P, then immediately tap strong (ice) or fierce (fire). (HCB+Punch~Strong_Fierce, for those that understand what that means)
The ice and fire infernos come out more quickly than the (default) lightning inferno, but they are also less safe if blocked. Lightning inferno is usually completely safe, if you can make them block it.
Well thanks for clearing that up for me Dan. I only ever played MSH at the arcade (european board, dunno what implication that has on the mechanics etc) so I didnt know too much about the saturn version, (except it had bad slowdown) which I have but dont play.
I didnt get your annotation for the gem combos… by ‘release’ you mean QCB+PPP activation, yeah? If so, how do you go from that into an alpha counter? I know you can go straight from activation into headcrush, for instance, but I dont get the alpha counter bit.
Also, I dont get how a wolvie combo that involves sj.Fierce (FLYING SCREEN??) can relaunch and be infinite? BTW I tested my version just now, US arcade version on Cap Am and it worked…
[quote]
*Originally posted by The Electrifying One *
You can interrupt blockstun with a gem activation, like an alpha counter. If your opponent is hit by the activation (you are invincible for a moment) you can link into the combos I listed above.
For example, Wolvie does a jumpin, and starts a ground chain combo on Jug. While blocking the ground chain combo, Jug does QCB+PP. He will go straight into the gem activation and hit Wolvie. Immediately after Jug recovers from the gem activation, he does QCF+PP. The Headcrush will combo.
If SJ.Fierce caused Flying Screen, wouldn’t SJ.RH (as in your version) cause FS also?
The reason why they don’t is that the divekick resets Wolvie to normal jump mode, and normal jump fierce/RH won’t set FS in MSH. Hence, you can land, run up, launch, and SJ again.
Yeah just been playing, realised what you were on about befroe I’d read that post… gems really are so much more important than I remember them being back in the day… As far as wolvies combo went I’d mistakenly been thinking that pre XSF sj.RH was a non-FS… hadn’t played for about four years. From a couple hours play yesterday, I’d prettyt much go along with everything you’ve said… BH is real strong, and the infinites make the pixies quite lethal.