Makoto vs. Chun-Li/Yun

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
1

In my opinion, definately Makoto’s 2 hardest fights. I haven’t run into too much trouble with these matchups…until recently. So, help/thoughts/opinions?

(Other thread vs. Chun had a lot of nonsense) :rofl:

Chun-Li:
-reacting to throws I think is probably more important here than any other matchup with Mak
-low fierce with stop Chun’s b+fierce, and looks like it will also take out low forward if done early enough. Basically low fierce, and then standing strong on her wakeup are the only ground pokes I feel safe using against her.
-when I fight this I usually run over Chun until she has meter, repeatedly jumping on her face, then back way off and wait for her to f-up when she’s charged, for the most part using low fierce to annoy them on the ground.
-mix her up like hell on wakeup, but watch for ex sbk. A late standing strong takes care of this, as does a late ex dp, but the latter is a stupid move mostly and the former is parry bait…
-standing rh on her wakeup or after a connected hayate to beat a low jab? anyone had success with this?
-if I sense the low jab and parry, it seems like I have no advantage…
-if she’s zoning really well, suggestions on getting in?

Yun:
-I usually stay in the air alot versus Yun, with jumping rh and mk working well
-far dive kicks can be fought with early low rhs, anything else on the ground vs divekicks I dont know what to rely on
-jumping on top of him is always a bad idea, jumping at him instead usually seems like the best way to get in
-I’ve gotten better at actually fighting Genei Jin, because it seems to me if you can do this relatively safely it’s a better option than sitting there and just taking a command grab
-I guess my problem is really when I’m on the defensive in this matchup, other than parrying the divekicks and breaking throws.
-What’s the opinion on using karakusa in this matchup? Do you guys think it’s usually better to run when he’s in meter range of combo->gj (mostly always) and get him coming after you, or stay on top of him until he’s charged?

I also have a problem with being extremely stubborn and ALWAYS picking SAII. Chun’s meter is long enough to somewhat justify using SAII for the EX’s, even though grabs virtually never happen, and on the other side Yun takes enough damage/has enough moves to put him into position to be grabbed xx super. I don’t know if this has to do with player preference, or if SA1 is always the better choice against these two, or both.

What do you do? :looney:

2

Chun:

  • parried standing fierce leads to a gauranteed fierceXXhayate/ex hayate/super. This works even when you parry it at max range. I’d be very careful about letting go with Abare after this tho, its hard enough sometimes to judge which strength to use after a grab against this bitch.

-also, i’ve found rh kara ex oroshi to work in certain situations against chun. Whereas ex oroshi would’ve been karathrown(ie, as a mixup after a hit hayate; she’ll even karathrow you out of command grab), the rh kara basically offsets her own kara, safely punishing it. Even if it whiffs, often they will be so concerned about reacting to properly block it in the first place that she won’t immediately c.forward. I also managed to tag her c.foward with it to end a round:sweat: It’s VERY easy to turn this into a rh karakusa, careful.

-only dash in after she does one of her pokes, i find it much easier just to jump at her while mixin up her axe kicks.

overall, imo, mak vs. chun is very clearly in chun’s favor. You generally only win this match up if she makes a huge error(you block her super), or she plays apprehensive enough for you to take control of momentum. I alternate supers against her, just to see if that fucks with them somehow.

Yun-

-ex srk will cleanly beat out his standing mk launcher. Just as risky if not more than it is against chun, but the payoffs are huge if you land it.

-Honestly though, waking up against Yun is a nightmare situation for Makoto, try to avoid it if at all possible. Its as if he becomes Dudley in this particular matchup because no matter what you do if you guessed wrong you will get supered.

I think it truly is a matter of preference on which super to use against Yun. With SA1 stocked, you have an enormous weapon that he must acknowledge, even while he is in GJ. This can help you out immensely, by limiting his options you can survive through many more GJ assaults. SA2 allows you to relentlessly rushdown safely, hopefully finishing him off before he can even get that flashing meter. Consider it a victory in of itself if you can get him to activate far away without his 123 combo, she really doesn’t have a way to consistently deal with his dives outside of parries.

3

Yo good shit ramza, thanks…especially the Chun st.fierce parry and the Rh kara ex oroshi…thats some tricky shit. :karate:

Against Chun I’ve found that Makoto’s low fierce and low strong are enough to annoy her and knock her out of random stuff to kind of put her on edge and force a mistake. I’ve actually found a lot of success in this matchup by sitting in the corner d/b (w SAII) while Chun has meter, and letting her run into these two pokes. And yeah, her problems with SAII ranges are fucked. I don’t think that there’s a proper range in which the RH abare will ever combo after st.fierce. I think the best options here are not to wait at all, and force her to guess over and over again. Make her scared of you first, before that meter pops up. If they block an EX Hayate and do try to attack, low strong will stuff her d.mk.

Yun. I think the benefits of having a little more air mobility with ex axe kick help out somewhat here. Until I knock Yun down, unless their meter is completely full, I generally jump straight up A LOT - hit an air rh -> rush in. This way really you may only take one hit, but chances are you’re hitting him with jump rh or mk. On the ground Makoto vs dive kick she has no good angles to attack him at, but air Makoto vs dive kick is in her advantage I think, as weird as it seems. When he’s on the offensive I really just jump up or parry dive kicks. Getting in on Yun first is probably more important than Chun…I’d rather fight her all day.

4

Chun - EX DP will cleanly beat s.Fierce even from max range (if she likes to start rounds with it, you can react when you hear her make the noise), and will trade with B+Fierce in your favor especially with juggles. It also beats s.Strong, s./c.Jab, beats or trades with c.RH, and beats EX SBK. A parried s.Fierce can be Jab DP’d from almost any range if you’re fast enough. If she does Lightning Legs to you when you’re getting up, one to three parries into EX DP will work against any version (even RH and EX). Headstomp and j.Jab (maybe it’s Strong they use, I dunno, it stays out the entire length of her jump) can both be Jab DP’d for free - don’t bother parrying or blocking, just hit her.
If you parry low Fwds a lot and like to attack afterward, the only move Makoto has that’s quick enough to stuff a super if Chun does it right after your parry is c.Short - Chun will hit Karakusas and s.Shorts, but every once in a while an EX DP will get through also. If you parry her c.Jab after your Hayate, you can indeed get her with a Short Karakusa but you have to be fast.
s.Strong, s.RH, and a properly timed s.Fierce will beat wakeup EX SBK. Also, if you try to Karakusa from almost max range and she does EX SBK, it’ll only hit you 3x and leave you standing and able to retaliate. If you parry it or a regular SBK, you can Jab or EX DP.
If you do Karakusa, Fierce xx Strong Hayate and hold it briefly and let it go to get a Stage 2, you can actually trade your followup c.Short with her c.Jab (and beat it if she’s slow), and beat all her other moves out.
If you play Tanden and you parry the last hit of SA2, you can retaliate with s.Fierce xx Tanden, s.Fierce xx Hayate, and all you need is one more combo of any kind to stun her. Heh.

Yun - if he whiffs a command throw you can Jab DP him. If you parry a crossup divekick in the corner you can Jab DP him. If you parry a close s./c.Strong you can Jab DP him even if he cancelled it into the rushpunch. If you parry his close Fwd, you can Jab or Strong DP him even if he tries to jump, though he can parry if he jumped. EX DP DOES NOT beat shoulders. If you anticipate a hopkick (GJ or not) you can Jab DP him.
If he likes to start rounds by dashing back since there’s normally not much you can do, an EX Hayate on reaction to the dash will hit and leave him cornered. (!)
Otherwise, try to stick to the air and don’t grab him too much. Tanden is suicide against Yun (more than normal)…but if you manage to hit with anything you can do 50% easily.

Other people can cover the SA1 and 2 stuff,
Mike Z

5

Cajunstrike: so you haven’t had any random low forward problems sticking out ur low strong? Once she gets meter I find it hard to use any crouching medium pokes against her.

These are after command grabs

chun-the range to hit hk abare is about where shotos take mk abare RIGHT below the timer clock. So after you smack her with fp, she should be right below the timer clock, and the hk abare should but maybe won’t? hit.

elena-the range where you would normally whiff a lk abare and have to use an mk abare against a shoto is exactly where you’d use lk abare against elena.

also against elena(possibly against the other girls too) I think I know what you’re talking about. There’s a certain range where they will be able to block mk abare, but hk abare hits them once and crosses over. Elena gives me problems comparable to Chun at times(no joke:sad: ), in fact it feels like I can NEVER safely dash in on her.

edit: good shit Mike Z, I need to parry more it seems:smile:

6

I dont know how valuable my advice is but here’s my two cents.

Chun - When fighting her its good to be as paitent as possible, cause most of the time you’ll end up running into a lot of far fp and c.mk. Because of this I just end up using axe kicks to get inside/command throw setups and if they like to parry j.mk then the timing for the axe kick is a little harder to guess. Everyone else has pretty much covered everything else.

Yun - for me, c.mk is my friend. if you happen to start parrying his dive kick, they might dedide to do jump in throws and whatnot, so a far c.mk will reset them for a kara command grab. I also find that a on block/hit c.mk on wake up yields a command grab if they decide to block instead of jumping to dive kick. Once again everything else has been said already.

Here’s hoping that I might have contribuited something. :sweat:

7

Random opinions: What kind of faith (if any), do you put into using st.mp, cr.mk, and ex dp to fight dive kicks? Maybe ex oroshi or rh-kara ex oroshi? The oroshi I’ve never really tried but it seems like it may be viable judging by it’s hit box.

Also, does anyone know what can punish a blocked lunge punch? I know you can normal throw him first…but aside from that I’m not sure. I’ll probably test this tonight.

Good stuff so far everyone. Thanks. :karate:

8

Not too much. I usually stick it out just slightly out of range, or right at max range and most of the time she run’s into it, mixing up with low fierce.

And yeah, against Elena & Chun I usually won’t do Abare unless I’m sure they’re close enough for MK or short, cause 100% of the time it’s better to whiff than to hit it once and combo the air. =p You can have a little more leniency however with the range for short and mk if you do the fierce as early as possible.

9

1)Im assuming your talking about the short dive kick aimed at the ankle/ and or falls just short… then all those pokes suck for beating that, especially cr fwd due to increased hitstun for getting hit crouching plus his target chain (pins down) xxgj = whole lot of life lost…:sad:

As for fukiage it usually misses the dive kick unless they went for the meaty crossup one on wakeup then it can hit them, but they gotta be late with it, if they timmed it right (with they probably will) it will usually stuff the fukiage.

EX fukiage against divekick is a coin flip whether it hits or not.

As for ex orochi it could work but you would half to be 100% sure they were gonna dive kick and against a good yun you are never sure.

your probably better off mixing it up between jumping (away,twds, straightup) RH, FP, etc, looking for parry to punish, and/or back/twd dashing away to get out of it.

  1. As for the lunge punch depends on how meaty or not it hits usually atleast a free karakusa.
10

This thread is depressing. :rofl:

So yeah I never get a lot of practice against Yuns. I feel pretty comfortable with the rest of the cast though. I just moved where there are more Yuns here than I am used to.

Alex, when u say fighting against GJ what do you do? I would like some tips on this. You can get some good hits in jumping around sure, but before you know he is stocked up and activates again. Sooo, id love some help on how to get some damage while he is in GJ.

Im kinda torn between SAII and SAI myself. I am leaning twaords SAI just because I rarley find myself grabbin him w/ a karakusa.

11

well my 2 cents, take it for whatever its worth:

When playing against yun, it all comes down to how well you anti-air and hold off genejin.

For preference on SAI/SAII, i think SAI is the best choice overall against good yuns, cause yun does better against makoto rushing down, then running away, so SAI is better defensively and overall for bigger damage.

Fighting genejin, yun’s look for getting you counter hit into genejin or command throw. Basically you have to learn when he wants to counter hit and when he wants to command throw. If yun leaves gaps (which isn’t baited) like he tries to command throw you and you anticipate, cr.short to hayate works or throw. Generally if you are confident in your offense, taking genejin damage isn’t much of a big deal (aggressive defensive). Just a tip, block if your winning like when you pull off cr.short hayate SAI and its like last round for the win. THis is what i didn’t do at evo ftw, and i took a chunk for being greedy esp after defending so well.

And for divekicks, the best option is usually parry and punish. If you don’t parry it, there’s a couple of things you want to anticipate if he jumps and divekicks again, or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t jump again, throw. If he does, i think jab works, jumping med kick back, or straight up jumping roundhouse.
I have the tendency to throw everytime they divekick. Pyrolee did some many genejin setups based on command throw that i particularly hate getting command throw by yun. And most good makotos don’t really get command grabbed that much i notice.

Taking risk esp when they don’t have meter helps.

Well you probably know this, but just relating what i know to others what might need it. My experiences come from playing Pyrolee. He raped me hard so many times that i had to understand the matchup the hard way. Apparently i asked Pyrolee how he knows what to do in every situation and he told me (or how it was liked to me): Well i notice that i had 63% to full bar and you only had like 37% to full SAI bar. From the past 4 divekicks you have been consistently been blocking, so the chances of Command grabbing you is 92%. It feels horrible getting raped by him, but also it feels like he invades your mental privacy and knows your first 3s combo and your gf’s first buttons. LOL now i don’t think i’ll get raped that bad. Basically against good yun’s you’ll have to outsmart and outplay them as well.

My 2 cents

12

Thanks for the info. Looks like you took that loss to Pyro pretty hard. haha. sorry to hear that. Id probably learn a lot more about this game if I’d go to Evo too. Maybe next year… (i always say that)

Anyway, what is the absolute best thing to punish a parried dive kick with? I was trying fp -> ex hayate but it seemed to only work every once in a while which makes me think the dude tried to do something instead of block.

I used to reset yun after the dive kick and dash under but that usally just resulted in a wiffed karakusa or something. Are there any cross up ex fukiage set ups or anyhting after that reset?

13

Whatsup Neidel. For parried dive kicks I ALWAYS command grab. If you time it right I’ve never had people escape. It takes some getting used to as to what grab to use when the kick is parried, but forward is usually the right button. Just parry then immediately rip it. Always works. If you want to reset I would say either after the dash do close strong -> grab, or low short xx hayate. Chances are they’ll be scared as hell and try to jump away, and that stops it. Not much of a risk situation because Yun doesn’t have much damage after if hayate is blocked. I don’t think I could ever find any reliable setup for ex dp - some of them had to be at specific heights that you could barely even recognize in training mode.

In my opinion, because of this I think SA2 is the best choice. If you can consistently parry the dive kicks -> grab, this limits their offense more so than SA1. Especially if you have SA2 stocked and you snatch them up. What this forces the Yun to do is to halt the dive kicks that would normally hit Mak, and instead rely moreso on the dive kicks that fall short. Yeah there’s a little theory in here but once they start dive kicking in front of you, it’s the same situation as when someone empty jumps at you and then they get command grabbed - you’ve trained them to stop dive kicking on you because it will get parried and then Yun gets hurt. When scaring Yun out of the air so much, his ground offense outside of GJ is easily beat by Makoto for the most part. I’ve actually taken this fight back to the ground mostly. SA2 and then the pressure you can put on after really scares Yun.

Hayates will also beat Yun’s low strong meter building. If you have to jump at him, jumping mk usually fails when they walk under, but chances are they’ll try this instead of a parry, so use jumping fierce. They way it hits (sort of ambiguous crossup) will either force a block or smack him in the head. Low forward eats his shit up on the ground.

When he activates and does f+mk, parry it. There is actually a lot of time to parry it, when you do, forward command grab xx whatever. This kills Yun and eats up his super time. Short karakusa may be better but forward always works, and it has the little bit extra range. Of course red parry his shoulder after the chain before the gj cancel - if you do and then karakusa quick enough, you’ll grab him right when the black screen ends. I’ve started to work on red parry of the strong in the chain as well, hard though. If they activate after the strong on block, a lot of Yuns will try low shorts, in which case (a total guess/read of the opponent) low parry -> throw works. Neutral throw invincibility trick still works and can get you either another throw or parry (at which point the GJ is pretty much done).

After GJ activates and he’s not on top of you (outside of far fierce range), you can always sj back. If you see him try to follow with a lunge punch, jumping mk or fierce will work on the way back. The time it will take Yun to get back to you after he falls from the reset will take about half of the GJ time away. Unless you see this though, don’t swing at all. If they’re closing in, an empty sj out of the corner can do the trick. It’s somewhat risky, but if they activate away from you, it throws a lot of Yun’s off if you jump AT them, and you can parry the kicks. Even if you get hit by the kicks I don’t think they have options that damage too bad. If they end up blocking in this situation, since the kicks are his only aa even in GJ - you still cut the GJ time by about 1/3. Sometimes when cornered by it I may empty jump straight up or early rh axe kick, but you have to watch for the far fierces and close standing mk.

Hope this stuff isn’t too common sense. :sweat:

14

ok yeah thats some good advice. thanks.

As far as the parried dive kicks, do you ever run into troubles when you parry them “early”? or like when he is right onto of your head up high? god, that dosent make any sense, but do you still grip him when you parry and he is still in the air? I guess ive always been hesitant to Karakusa cause I assumed it would wiff if he was still airborne or could counter with the b&b or something.

Seems like fighting him while he is in GJ depends a lot on the player and getting a feel for their timing. I think a lot of it is anticipation and knowing when they are going for command grab and shit like that. C. MK seems to do pretty well actually against a lot of that and keeping him at bay. If I block the chain and he activates, I obviously stay blocking while he tries shit and just keep an eye out for command grab or anything funny like hop kicks. Blocking is good but you cant be too passive as you guys know cuase you can still take a lot of damage by just sitting there. heh.

15

Cajun- After a blocked lunge punch I assume you should be able to do s.Lk --> Lp Hayate. That usually works after tons of moves, you probably already know this, and I use it in many situations