This.
Also, this isn’t third strike. The engine is completely different. Yes, it’s much more defensive. We don’t need defense, we need offense. What you want us an option against defense. Not defense itself. Talk to vryu. There’s a lot you can do with ex oroshi to counter srk believe it or not.
I disagree Wirestyle. I’m in the camp that believes that the only clear buff that she needs is an increase in walk speed. I think your being slightly purist about her Character Design. If she was to walk as fast as Zangief or anyone slower for example, it wouldn’t ruin her concept as being the most pure breed of mix up character. I definitely feel you on the Rock, Paper, Scissors thing and I agree with it. But faster walk speed is not mutually exclusive with being a mix up character.
Number one, this is SF4 not 3S. I know this is obvious, but every character from a different iteration of SF that made it into this game, has essentially been re-tuned to fit the ethos of this game. Footsies and Spacing is the golden rule. If you can’t provide an adequate footsie game, you are going to struggle. Having the slowest walk speed in the game doesn’t allow her to do even basic things like walking forward and backwards to space out a poke or walk out of the opponents throw or poke range. She can’t even walk back and forth just to feel out the opponent and I feel she’s a character that should be able to do that in **this **game. It wasn’t unnecessary in 3rd Strike but it is in SF4. Personally, I think that’s one of her weakest points and to me, it doesn’t make sense to have a character who has relatively decent pokes, to then lack the ground movement to support it. And **yes, **her Dash is amazing but all it takes is anticipation and a poke cancelled into a special to blow up it up. Having to jump, back dash, or forward dash to travel everywhere is just going to leave you open for punishment at **some **point.
The way it is now, she may as well be a character who is completely unable to walk and can only travel by dashing and jumping. I mean, why not? She essentially cannot walk. That’s how slow it is. I think having a character who literally can’t walk sounds pretty interesting actually but unfortunately, this isn’t an ArcSys game and ideas like that don’t belong in Traditional Street Fighter. While it may be argued as to whether she really needs a walk speed upgrade or not, I think the more important question we should be asking is: “Does having a faster walk speed ruin the concept of Makoto?” I truly believe that if you are to carefully analyze that question and look at all the logistics, the answer is No. It really doesn’t. She wouldn’t all of a sudden no longer be the embodiment of Rock-Paper-Scissors and/or High Risk/High Reward. She’d be the same thing with just a slightly better ground game. I can’t locate the problem in that.
*Another prime thing to look at is the fact that giving her a faster walk speed will instantly make her a stronger character, even if slightly. So another question would be: “is it a bad thing to buff a character so they can perform better in the game they are in?” In my opinion, it darn sure isn’t, so long as the characters core concept isn’t flipped upside down or completely changed in the process, which I really don’t think will happen if she was able to walk as fast as *T.Hawk or Gief at *most. *
Walk Speed Comparison for a visual reminder of how fast she walks in a second
She doesn’t need a walk speed buff. Increase the range of hk/ex Karakusa. Make it more like Abel’s (throw invincible, 5 frame start up across the board). Get people really scared of the move. Give her a useful 3 frame normal. Something I’ve always thought would be fun is if we could combo f.hk after fukiage to get some practical charged hayate set ups going.
She could really use the ability to combo is sweep imo and for sweep to have a better knockdown.
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Why doesn’t she need a walk speed increase? Just saying she doesn’t need one, isn’t a counter argument especially in light of the points I made. I’d like to see some fair reasons that counter those points. Also, while having HK & EX Karakusa being throw invincible would be a huge buff that I wouldn’t complain about during a match, deep down I know It would be way too broken. Her command grab can lead into a raw Ultra for free, which is clearly why they made the move beatable by normal throws. No other command grab in the game can lead straight into an Ultra, bar Yuns throw but he needs super to combo into it. Making it throw invincible would diminish the risk/reward surrounding that move, which is exactly what the core of my argument is. If Makoto was to recieve any buffs, those buffs need to keep her Risk/Reward design philosophy intact. Throw invincible Karakusa ruins that, faster walk speed does not.
She can combo into sweep off a meaty set up.
For example,
Sweep > f.Mk > s.Mp > Sweep
Whether it counter hits or hits meaty, it combos into sweep. It can even combo into Ultra 1 just off a Meaty. And there is more set ups like that.
I don’t think being able to combo into sweep normally would hurt her character design but she doesn’t *need *that ability. HP/EX Oroshi, Backthrow and HK Tsurugi already provide you with the hard knockdowns you need.
And just to clarify, the only thing I think Makto literally actually **NEEDS **is faster walk speed. There are other things that I **want **such as a better 3 frame normal as others have mentioned, or for better invincibility on EX Oroshi, but those are just bonuses that aren’t essential in my opinion. Needing and Wanting are two different things.
I like the F.HK after Fukiage combo Kaiten mentioned. 
And better cross up MK.
I have been for this for a while but the main thing I’d want from a 2013 version would be new stages and costumes. 
I’d just like to point out Gouken can combo into Ultra off a NORMAL throw and THAT isn’t beaten outright by throws like Karakusa is.
I agree making Karakusa completely throw invulnerable wouldn’t be good.
She doesn’t NEED anything. Movement isn’t a problem with Makoto, we don’t need faster walk speeds cause we’ve learned to use her forward attacks, dashes and other moves that move her around the playing field in order to become one of the faster characters in the game. It’s one of the points of those forward moving attacks. For me she has become one of the easiest characters to move around the stage with because she has so many options to move with.
This is pretty stupid. Useless question to start a pointless argument. You also say that dashing won’t get you far if a well placed poke. Didn’t you mention before that spacing is essential? Learn it and don’t dash in from there. That’s where her walk speed/forward moving normals come in. Get into that space and just slowly walk forward. They try to catch your dash with a "psychic poke? Whiff punish. You’ve walked close enough to get an easy sweep/ f.mp then your in. Her whole gameplay is to be in. We destroy when we are in. If we could just walk towards them after getting knocked away then would there be any incentive to play at all? SPACING is the biggest tool for makoto until she gets in. If you really think she’s a character who can’t move around without jumping, back dashing or dashing than you need to go back to the drawing board. At least once a match I walk towards the opponent. I just walk. No f.mp. No jumping/dashing. You’d be surprised at how many people panic and do something stupid. A lot like when aquasilk gets them to the corner and focus dashes to get them to jump for his U2. You don’t know how many people I catch with walk forward>(they jump up)> dash fuki or walk forward>they whiff sweep>dash Karakusa. I don’t think I haven’t used her walk in any match this year. Caught pr rog with it a couple times when he was down here for Canada cup.
Anyways on to other things. Ya making it throw invincible like Abel’s would be to strong. Maybe make start up 5/6/7/5 and make recovery 49 or 50 across the board. And a range increase on at least heavy/ex to at least the end of her hand would be nice. A stronger xup mk would be nice but would it affect her unblockables?
Oh and a way to combo into ultra 2 would be cool.
what i would like :
What i would love :
S.HP > Super > U2 would be cool for fancy people…
To be fair, i think the only thing that can be considered stupid, is the fact that even though you went on to type put a whole paragraph, you didn’t actually answer the question in the end. Also, in me suggesting that she could use a walk speed buff, does not mean that I do not know how to use the great tools she has to maneuver the stage. It also doesn’t mean that I don’t think she already has great tools for movement. What I *should *have said, is that ***IF ***Makoto needs anything, I think she could do with a faster walk speed. As it stands, walking with Makoto literally serves no purpose except to intimidate the opponent into thinking “my gosh, what does this guy have planned, walking at me so confidently with that walk speed? Maybe he has an unblockable set up!? herp derp”.
The reason why I question whether giving her a better walk speed will ruin the design philosophy of her character is because at the end of the day, THAT is the thing that the developers need to be careful not to change when they consider how and who to buff/nerf. So I wouldn’t call it a pointless or silly question. But its nice to know you think it is.
I didn’t aim to answer your question. I gave you my reasons as to why I say she doesn’t need a walk buff. To answer your question since your so adamant about it… No it won’t change her. But that’s like saying will giving Ryu the walk speed of Akuma help him out in his general gameplan? No it won’t. Now lets talk some numbers. It took me about 11.9 seconds (714 frames) to walk from round start position to the right side of the screen with makoto. It was 6.5ish (390 frames) with Zangief. Now with a nearly doubled walk speed, mind you this is theory like everything else in the thread, let’s look at possible outcomes in terms of combos/damage. We have to remember that she can walk forward a bit after Karakusa and super as it stands right now so I’m taking her faster walk speed into account. Here’s a little max damage combo on dj: J.hk>hp>lvl 2 mp hayate>super>hp>hc>mp^3>lvl 2 lp hayate(500)[838]
Now can you imagine this on Abel?
Karakusa>hp>hc>mp^3>mp hayate>super>hp>hc>mp^3>lvl 2 lp hayate
Or against Akuma:
Iat>hp>lvl 2 mp hayate>super>hp>hc>mp^2>lvl 2 lp hayate.
If she were able to get that much damage from such an easily hit move (faster walk speed= scarier threat of tsurugi) it would be to good. You make a characters tools stronger than they should be you’ll get ae Yun. Think their to strong and tweak them so they’re “fair” you get Phoenix wright.
I take it back. It would change her because we won’t want to spend bar to get a knock down. We would play her more like gen, sitting on bar to get that damage, than a hybrid grappler.
I’ll end my rant there.
I should also mention that all those combos were mid screen. Djs did more than its corner counterpart. I’m sure if we crunched the numbers these super combos would be up there.
Thanks for answering the question but I have no idea how you ended up with the theory that she’d do more damage if she had a faster walk speed. I read your post three times to make sure there wasn’t something I missed and to avoid looking stupid but no. If what you meant to say is that a faster walk speed will give her more opportunities to do damage then yes, I agree. Personally, I don’t think an increased threat of Tsurugi is overpowered or contrary to Makoto mechanics whatsoever. In a game where the upper echelon of characters score ridiculous damage off dive-kicks all year round, I do not see being able to land Tsurugi slightly easier as too good.
I disagree with the notion that she’d be played more like Gen, but I see why you would reach that conclusion. The problem is, you cant assume that players would ignore the strength of her knockdown due to a faster walk speed and you also can’t assume that Tsurugi will all of a sudden start landing 50% more often because of it. Who is to say that the faster walk speed wont actually increase the threat of Karakusa? (which is what her character design revolves around) If buffing walk speed secretly buffs the use and potential of Karakusa then it’s pretty much a victory to have buffed that move without having to give it something like throw invincibility, which is something we both agree would be too much and for obvious reasons. I guess it works both ways, especially since this is all theory crafting. Maybe I can’t definitively say that faster walk speed will not divert attention away from knockdown/landing Karakusa oriented gameplay in the same way you can’t definitively say that it will. We wouldn’t truly know unless it actually happened or if someone made a patch of the PC version of the game and had a whole bunch of players playing that build just to see how the meta game around her would change or not change.
However, to round up tho and clarify, I’m not even wishing she had a better walk speed in order to complement or change the application of her normal or specials because I know that her normals and specials are pretty decent for the most part regardless. I just personally think that it doesn’t make any sense for her to have the slowest walk speed in the game. *even *in light of having one of the best dashes in the game in terms of travel distance, to me, it still doesn’t make much sense. If walking faster actually ends up giving her better utility and threat of Karakusa or Tsurugi in hindsight, then I’m all for it.
Originally, I said if it was buffed at **most **to the speed of Zangief, meaning that any walk speed between Zangief & Sagat and i’d be pretty content with it. Somewhere in the middle of those characters and i wouldn’t complain at all. The speed of Zangief could be unnecessary admittedly, but mainly because she wouldn’t *need *to walk that much faster if all i want is for her not to be the slowest in the game.
We need more offensive power to balance our weak defense… A better j.mk xup,quicker normals (even a better blockstun) and i’m done with. She don’t need a better walk speed **maybe **a better recovery after the dash.
A characters weaknesses are just as important as their strengths when it comes to character design and originality. If every character had all the same strengths and weaknesses this game would be boring. The fun part of the game, even inside of combat, is working around your strengths and limitations–both as a character and as a player. Do you have any idea how much damage she nets off of an anti air Fukiage? It’s retarded. They gave her so much damage and so many limitations. The Japanese were basically like here, now you have all the damage. Let’s see what you come up with to land it. So go ahead: Understand that’s the fun of the game.
Yang actually gets one too for almost the same damage, but it’s comparatively much more difficult.
Can’t wait to main her ounce again whe i get my ae back. Shes alot better in 3s tho…
this!!! i actually like sf4 mak more than sf3 mak. that is the only thing she really needs IMO. i miss that from 3rd strike…
i really don’t get the walk speed debate? i never walked with makoto unless i’m purposely showing off to my apponent how slow, cautious and methodical my intentions are. seriously, i love the slow walk lol. anyone notice how badass she looks walking that slow and then BAM, i’m in yo face fool lol. i actually laugh inside when i see people drop her just because of the walk speed.
People are playing it off as a joke but walking towards someone with Makoto does actually psyche people out. Especially if they’re in the corner and you’re slowly closing in on them.
The same can be said for *any *character walking towards someone. Creeping up on your opponent will always have the potential to psyche them out regardless of who you are. It’s not something that is exclusive to Makoto or is a benefit from her slow walk speed.