They gave us more damage/mixup but increased risk. I’m fine with it 
I’m of the line of thought that they are changing her playstyle far too much. Which they are allowed to do of course. It is their game after all.
But just as much as they are right to do what they want with her and ignore feedback, those of us who are unhappy have just as much right to
complain and demand a change. Especially considering that a lot of us play Makoto simply because of how she plays currently even if it isn’t
as pure as her 3rd Strike iteration.
A lot of these buffs are very dividing in my opinion. Honestly, all I would have needed to be content is 1000 HP, throw invul EX ORO (which they’ve done)
and to not have the slowest walk speed in the game to the point where we are forced to dash or use forward moving normals to push forward.
Personally, I think the whole increased Karakusa recovery + counter hit damage is proof that Capcom are thinking very questionably on some of these
decisions. As if opponents didn’t already have time to make a cup of tea after jumping a whiffed Karakusa and come back in time to Ultra it.
I’m genuinely a bit nervous about how the game is shaping out to be. Not just because of these changes but because I believe its 150% impossible for them
to balance all these characters and add 5 new ones and have the game end up being more balanced than it currently is
I played Super Makoto, so really, nothing they can do will be worse than those dark days.
I agree with charliekun but yeah, anything is better than super makoto lol
I don’t think they intend to release a completely balanced game. Capcom is trying to balance it ‘as best as possible’ and then they will adjust based on how players are using the changes. This is one of the benefits of being able to release patches and hotfixes.
I think a lot of you are suffering from old man syndrome, where you’re set in your ways and the things that make the character good/enjoyable to you are changing–in your opinion, for the worse. In my opinion, change is good even at the cost of my character being rebalanced. The game is stale. Let’s go over what the actual changes are:
Buffs:
**1. Standing HP hit stun increased by 1F on crouching opponents (now matches the hit stun time when used against standing opponents)
2. Crouching HK stun increased from 100 to 200
3. Jump MK hitbox slightly expanded, easier to cross-up
4. EX Fukiage now hits grounded opponents, jump-cancellable on hit
5. L and M Tsurugi block stun increased by 1F; at lowest height L Tsurugi is ±0 on block, M Tsurugi is -2 on block
6. Abare Tosanami (UC2) after the freeze now fully projectile invincible until landing
7. Throw Invul on Oroshi
**
Nerfs:
1. Seichusen Godanzuki (UC1) damage decreased from 480 to 440
2. Back Throw range decreased from 0.9 to 0.85
3. L, M, H Karakusa recovery on whiff increased by 4F
4. All versions of Karakusa take counter-hit damage during the move
5. EX-Fukiage damage reduced from 120 to 80; stun reduced from 200 to 100
Based on the changes I can come to a couple of conclusions:
Buffs:
- Crouching HK wasn’t being used very much so they added stun to give us more of a reason to use it. 200 stun is a lot.
- j. MK made into a viable crossup. I don’t think I need to explain this considering all of us were whining for years to get it.
- EX Fukiage hitting grounded opponents opens them up to a huge amount of mixup–explained in further detail below.
- Previously Tsurugi could only be made relatively safe. Now LK Tsurugi can actually be safe. This gives us a lot more pressure, especially against grapplers.
- Abare Tosanami fully projectile invul. No more getting hit by projectiles–namely one that you predicted and is currently only being released. Obviously good.
- Throw invul on Oroshi. Borderline broken IMHO. This combined with the Tsurugi change is going to seriously change the way we can play against grapplers.
Nerfs:
- The reward on Karakusa was too high so they increased the risk of using it.
- Ultra 1 did too much damage–we all knew this.
- Backthrow gave you too much in the way of setups that a grappler shouldn’t have (Combofiend’s explanation)
- EX-Fukiage shouldn’t do the amount of damage and stun that it was doing if you can use it in combos from everywhere on the screen. Especially considering if you FP > EX Fukiage > j. FP (as close to ground as you can) > Dash > EX-Oroshi (Throw Invul)/ Tsurugi/ Double Dash Under/ Crossup/ Karakusa/Frame trap etc etc etc. I think you can see that the potential for damage was increased while the static guaranteed damage went down–as it should.
She’s a mixup character. They gave her more mixup. What exactly is the problem?
Giving her an amazing tool like ex fuki for nerfs on her most important tool seems good for you?
ATM Karakusa recovery is already insane. The real grapplers have heavy recovery also on their cmd grabs,but no one of those gonna have 51f,plus they have more health to deal with. No opponents who knows how Makoto works get grabbed that often to justify those nerfs: if grab opponents with karakusa is that simple,why we have so few Makotos around at high level? Simple,you have ever force your opponent to block,not that easy in SF4 engine. With FADC system you can do a DP without worrying about what Makoto does,plus is a new style of play to block first and mash after,we don’t have normals/specials with heavy blockstun,look at the match between Haitani vs Wao. Oni don’t try to avoid Makoto’s pressure,he simply deny it.
Karakusa isn’t a command like Fei or the twins ones,karakusa is why who plays street fighter knows Makoto,who plays her daily is pissed off because Capcom put nerfs just to throw nerfs on something. People who do a karakusa is easy already don’t know how she works. Damage nerf on U1? We gonna do not even 400dmg from a karakusa. Not even Ryu does from a Shoryuken,BUT he can do that from an invincible move who can be safe with 2 bars,he can’t almost never punished to try it. Sagat does 491dmg from TU-FADC-f.hk-U1. He deserve it? Is more hard than get closer to an opponent in this defensive game full of defensive mechanics?
Ex Fukiage is great,but you already know how is hard get a winning reset after it,especially if you don’t play against a scrub. Plus you need meter to do so,Makoto needs meter for everything. J.mk and EX Oroshi unthrowable are just adjustments,our girl deserve it,end of the story. Nothing broken here.
I don’t want a stupidly good meter move if I lose something on my most important move,what I’ve asked something for a better positioning after an hayate for example. Capcom justify EX Fukiage with 5 nerfs,again,is good for you? She’s more unsafe than before,if our opponent can get a coffee after a whiffed cmd grab,know they have time to light even a cigarette and they gain a CH punish for it.
People got angry about dash forward, karakusa. Ok it’s like 20-25 frames but they are able to poke OS if we spend our time dashing. Our move speed is a real issue, that’s why we dash. I think super should give us a normal walk speed, that would be better. Juri, Yun and Yang can reset with their engines. We cant do anything effective except a combo that will be toned down by damage reduce anyway. Super is worse than it was and karakusa nerf was really unnecessary : 47 frames is more than enough to vertical jump and punish, or backdash, dash forward punish. The charged hayates still need tweaks : why does Hakan gain super when he cancels his command grab (the one where he flies forward), and we dont get anything when we cancel a charged hayate ? (gaining super for a non charged hayate would be OP).
> “I think you can see that the potential for damage was increased while the static guaranteed damage went down–as it should”
I think this is the only thing I have trouble agreeing with. I don’t mind the changes as much as I did when I first heard them. I may have wished for them to go in a different direction in terms of buffs, but I can accept the ones we got, as well as the nerfs. But I just cannot see my mix up game being buffed because of Ex-Fukiage.
We have this option right now every single time we land a fukiage anti-air. The outcome is never any different than just landing a hayate. I may not be a fantastic player, so forgive me for saying this, but I’m either going to be hit by their reversal or block and punish. Only once in a blue moon does Karakusa work after I dash underneath someone. Every other option is just as easily countered by a reversal. If they are a throw happy player, then we already have tsurugi, so Ex-Oroshi isn’t adding much more than a spent meter for a mixup. I just see all of this as the same mix up potential we’ve always had anyway, as well as the same ways to escape from it…so I don’t consider it much of a buff. I’ll take it, and work it into the way I play, but I don’t believe it’s going to be game changing.
With all this said, I don’t mind the damage being decreased on Ex-Fukiage, since it’s justified.
The reset after ex fuki is going to be okay. I see where KSRezcind is coming from though, sometimes it feels like your opponent has the upper hand and I feel like I’m forced to guess if he’s mashing DP or throw, but the ease of transitioning into this reset now is considerable. I typically only get it after focus attacks and to a lesser extent air to airs or anti airs. Which means we have an easier time getting data on what our opponent likes to do. If you go for the dash under reset and get DPed twice in a round, then you should know to bait and punish next time.
Also, I’m fairly interested in the corner push over reset. I might end up using the extra bar for say ex fuki, tsurugi, ex hayate cause I’m thinking that would go pretty much corner to corner. And we all know how scary Mak is with cornered opponents. Take that with nerfed escape options like Bison’s teleport or Seth’s wall dive and you’ve got a salty stew going. >:)
I know they dont intend to make a completely balanced game. We all know that perfect 100% balance is impossible anyway. I was saying I was worried
because (in my mind) there is no way that they can release Ultra and have it “at least just as balanced” as what AE currently is. They are changing way too
much too fast for that not to happen.
I dont disagree with your points and shes definitely had buffs and nerfs that are fair. Ultra 1 doing less damage especially. Im all good with that.
But my point was that just as how you can make that claim and say “change is good”, I can also say “they didn’t need to change certain things” and be
just as justified. And when I say that, I’m staring at the EX Fukiage Grounded Buff. You make it sound like change is inherently a good thing which is
very far from the truth. Just because they are changing up how she plays and are giving her more/better tools doesn’t mean its going to make her a better
character to play, whether its right now or later down the line as they patch things up. That probably sounds like a dumb sentence and it probably is. I just
have a different mindset when it comes to what is better for the character vs what is better for the game.
Makoto in my mind was a character where you had to fear her Command Grab. I feel like with the EX Fukiage change, i’ll be playing her like Sakura, Seth or
any other reset/mixup heavy character which is a bad thing in my opinion. By the looks of it, they’ve done more character blending than character changing.
Its a buff that is better for Makoto because it gives her a new toy, but I dont think its better for the game as a whole because now we have another character
who is more like the other characters and less like herself, which was a character that was far more unique in my opinion.
I think thats an awesome idea. Never thought of that.
With DWU Bison’s escape options are even much stronger imo.
@KSRezscind:
Post hayate you get no left right mixup for one. Post Fukiage you can literally use every piece of mixup Makoto has. You definitely get more out of a fukiage mixup wise.
@PairedPlauge:
Well, with EX Oroshi having throw invul you can now bait DP’s AND throws with it. Just that one buff alone solves your example. Makoto has a lot of setups you can use currently in the game to continue pressure and also bait DP’s–even 3 frame reversals.
@CharlieKun:
Mike Zaimont had a really good story that he said on a podcast I listened to about the Russian painters. I’m not going to type out the entire thing, but basically it makes the argument that people don’t really know what they want. After SSF2T if you asked people what they would want in a fighting game they would describe SSF2T with a few changes. Very few companies are willing to take risks in the fighting game industry, but when they do you get games like Guilty gear and Vampire Savior. Both amazing games that took really intelligent and talented people to even envision, let alone create. Also, failing in multiple incarnations of the game will help you learn what works and what doesn’t work. I’m looking at BlazBlue which was a pretty garbage game for awhile until the newest incarnation which from what I’ve heard has solved a lot of issues they’ve had. So yes, change is good. Most of what I say on the forums is for other players to figure out for themselves. I don’t expect anyone to 100% agree with me all the time. After all, this is just my opinion. However, I do think I have a case to make for it.
@EtherealWTF:
I love you dude but we are never going to agree about Makoto’s movement speed <3 lol
Honestly, I’d rather have them revert to AE Fukiage with 100/140 damage and no grounded hit. This buff gives us more damage mid-screen than we do in the corner when using one bar and H Tsurugi and better mix up potential with j.HP. I think it is OP and borderline broken. Makoto doesn’t need it. She needs a better s.mk hitbox so TC does not whiff on crouching opponents after the first hit.
I see nothing broken about anything makoto has! she’s one of the hardest working characters in the game.
also, makoto’s slow ass walk speed is the best! that’s right, I love it!!! lol
Makoto’s walkspeed sucks all kinds of dick, but nothing says “mindfucked” like an opponent letting you walk up on them as Mak.
Why are you using tc1 against croucher tho ?
I only use that to break focus attack or handle some jump ins.
And Makoto walk’s speed is a fun tool sometimes.
People get so scared. Would love a small increase, maybe. That would be a huge buff to give her.
Oh nice, I haven’t thought about ex oroshi in that situation. Still makes me scared with longer reversals, oni and seth’s dps are probably active too long for oroshi’s invulnerability to bait. :\
Reversals with more horizontal range (i.e. EX Shoryu) hits Makoto even during EX Oroshi because the invincibility is limited.
I haven’t seen anyone use a higher version of a reversal just to prevent Makoto from doing ex oroshi through it yet.
Might come with time, but that’s gonna be a decent option for a while until people figured it out.