Makoto Strategy and Match-ups

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
101

To, you know, bring this into another direction…

I was playing tonight at the gathering place we go to. Most of the matches were very very hard, but I did pick up on at least one fun tidbit and another possible.

1- VS Adon, you can jab Fukiage his Jaguar Tooths on reaction (then proceed to tsurugi -> ex hayate). At first I thought it was a fluke, but we practiced it during matches and it was coming out rather nicely. Note that we tested mostly fullscreen, so I don’t know if it works midscreen or up close. What’s nice too is that the Adon player can’t fake them out to punish because he’ll land too far from you.

2- I seemed to be kinda successful in applying pressure using f.mp. I tend not to use FP Hayates that much, and if a MP or Jab hayate landed I’d follow up with pressure from f.mp, f.lk and switching between c.jab and c.mp in-between. It seemed to work quite a bit (lost to reversals though, obviously) but I got a TON of CH f.mp, which lead to link to c.jab -> hayate. People seem to have a tendency to mash stuff after you hit with a Hayate, and this was my only tool to get in close and do some damage to some more defensive players like Deejay (I was facing someone who was only holding down-back, throwing booms and doing his AA when I jumped over his booms. it was very frustrating until I figured out how to apply pressure differently). It worked relatively well against Juri too. I have to figure out the best followup in all the situations, but it worked very well. Often times you can mixup with a kara karakusa, or get in a bit more for a regular karakusa, or I’d bait attempts and do EX karakusa, etc.

The nice thing with f.mp is that it beat out some backdashes (notably Guy’s) and the hitbox seemed rather large.

My 2 cents anyway :slight_smile:

102

Was going to make a brand new thread but decided to just post this question here:

Stopping the backdash. . .this is by far my biggest obstacle right now. I have tried so many approaches to this, IAT, c.lp > kara kara, foward+mk, foward+mp, just many things I have tried so far and they CAN work but my problem is stopping the back dash safely. I haven’t found one way to do it yet, gonna go to training mode for a few hours before bed to see if I can come up with anything else. Like I COULD try to kara something the back dash then im open to OS.

I have found that most players fear karakusa in general and will back dash/jump in some direction to get away from you. My only saving grace is EX IAT someone to death and that’s been the only thing I have had mild success with seeing that I need meter and people are trying their hardest to just zone me.

I think my main problem is the non use of all her normals like c.lk and am relying to heavily on s.mp. I have lost ALOT of matches but I am learning these match ups and finding that timing the only problem is getting in and making them not mash on back dash cause i know how to get people to not mash on buttons now haha

If the OP could put any info about stopping back dashes on the original post that would be appreciated as well.

103

So I’m an Abel main since SF4

I’m not gonna say much except I been dead set on Makoto (like the poster before me and many of you) but I’ve talked to many people and I’ve played the game (which I pre ordered) all day with me and my friend and our conclusion is that we assumed from watching videos and such she would be at worst, manageable, but now playing her, us and other local tournament players have come to have the same thoughts that she is actually terrible, at least as far as the common knowledge now goes, but even if new things are discovered, I dont think it’ll be enough to make her competitive

She seems crap, near useless, but I still

Pros:

  • Ultra from command throw (Ultra does low damage, and command throw has little to no priority and is highly punishable)
  • second ultra seems good, good damage for reasonable EX cost
  • seems like you have some good ways to mix up

Cons:

  • 950 hp, for a character that is weak vs zoning/has medium-to-low damage (disregarding super+ultra), while other characters with similar problems/styles such as abel, zangief, t-hawk, have higher hp, and deal more damage with better ways to get in
  • ex moves aren’t that good, and don’t give too much reasons outside of match-up-specific situations
    ex hayate: when it knocks down, they can instant get up so unlike untechable if u dash in you’re vulnerable/you loose pressure,
    it doesn’t deal much more damage (i think its same as hard), so there are generally no benefits other than the speed, but since it can’t go through fireball, you’re only getting shave damage,
    its not + on block, and i heard sometimes its minus
  • ex overhead: can be combo for a knockdown, yes, but the start-up time is slow so setups like crouching light kick xx overhead setup is throw-able/jab-able
  • ex fukiage: not much to say, but from what i seen it doesn’t have much uses, except adding a bit of damage in combos, but normal fukiage seems to usually combo fine, since light will beat crossups fine and hard moves far i dont see much reason to spend meter on homing

just some thoughts =\

edit: just letting y’all know she’s my favorite character in all of sf, i love her to death but im gonna probably alt guy/cody on the side, but im not gonna give up on her yet

104

Can anyone give me advice vs dhalsim? that seems like one of her worst matchups.

105

My first impression of Makoto was that she was bulky, and like many said, felt just odd compared to her 3s counterpart. However, day two, things are coming along nicely. Using the dash back and forth surpresses your opponent very well once you land a hayate, because if they panic and whiff a move, you can run in and karakusa them = big damage and mind fuck.

106

Need some help against Guile. I can’t find any viable strategy against him. It seems like he just controls space too damn well.

107

personally I think she will have a real hard time with more defensive fireball characters. Dee Jay, guile and possible gouken for his angled FBs.

As far as strategy. I love mixing up with with some of her various normals after hayate. I don’t know how punishable it is other than people mashing DP and sweeps. I sometimes mix it up with a back dash to bait them. If they wiff, punish them.

108

So I just got done playing a set VS my friend’s “lame you out” Dictator. I probably won like 5 out of 15 matches (a lot of the matches were close with me making stupid decisions or fucking up when it mattered).

Either way, this match is all ground game. No one is allowed to jump in this match-up unless for a cross-up after knockdown. s.MP is the answer for just about all of Dictator’s jump ins (c.MK might be as well but I forgot to try it), while s.HK is Dic’s answer to all of Makoto’s jump ins. From what I played, it felt like Makoto had 5 major tools in this match up:

1: s.MP
2: c.FP
3: (EX) Karakusa
4: EX Oroshi
5: Ultra 1

s.MP is your only footsie tool here. It can either beat or trade with Dictator’s s.MK, s.HK, c.MP, (EX) Psycho Crusher, (EX) Scissor Kick, etc. Basically, it has the potential to beat everything he has, it’s just dependent on the spacing. My gameplan throughout my matches were to get in close by making him scared to press a button to keep me out (fearing s.MP) and dash in to land a grab for a combo. Problem with Karakusa is it’s range is shit, and Dictator’s walk speed is too damn good against Makoto. This is where c.HP comes to play. After getting Dic to hold back after getting outpoked by your s.MP you can proceed to dash in. If he continues holding back instead of crouch block, c.HP will stop him and you score a knockdown. Bait EX Psycho if he has meter and punish it with dash Karakusa or EX Karakusa, in case he tries to mash you after the EX Psycho. Once he starts fearing the c.HP and begins crouch blocking, that’s when you dash Karakusa. So basically, after you dash, you have 3 options:

  • (EX) Karakusa
  • c.HP
  • s.MP

The main use for EX Oroshi is to get out off Scissor kick corner pressure when it happens. Outside of that, I found myself constantly having meter or super in the match because I’m mostly just pressing s.MP. I tried OSing with Hayate during the s.MP footsies game and found that if the distance in which it hits is too wide the Hayate will whiff, which of course isn’t good. So I opted not to go for OS Hayate in the matches I played. Even without that the match up seemed managable.

Right now, I’d rate it probably 4.5/5.5, if not 4/6, Dictator’s favor. Mainly because a lot of trades when they happen are in Dic’s favor, Makoto has 950 health, and Dic’s walk speed shits on Karakusa and allows him to tick throw well. It overall feels very winnable though.

109

Damn why so angry that I’m telling the truth?

Don’t get your panties in a bunch.

110

Hope you guys won’t mind me posting strings of notes in this thread.

Mak’s j.lp is one of her go-to anti airs. It’ll trade or it’ll stuff most things. I know for sure it stuffs Sagat’s S.HK.It beats late DPs but not anticipatory DPs. If you are in such a position that your opponent is NOT flat footed and that they can DP you, just go for J.lp. If they throw a stupid fireball that you can jump in reaction to, then j.fp instead. I still have to test j.fp’s priority though. If you ever watch good Abels throw out jumping air jabs (sort of like an air to air smacking tool and a jump-in tool), i think this is how you should approach the j.lp with Makoto.

old trick but goodie: If the character you’re facing has no EX and no decent anti air, or if your opponent is just not commited to throwing out anti-airs, you can catch your opponents off gaurd by doing fake forward+FK into throw.

111

I think sf4 makoto needs to be played incredibly patiently if you’re playing against someone competent.

It is very important that you learn the distances on her fukiage as soon as possible. It seems to beat all jump ins if you’re on your feet and you react properly with the correct strength fukiage. You cant reposition yourself much by walking, because makoto cant walk, but between kara fierce fukiage and the non kara variations makoto can anti air a very large portion of the screen cleanly for massive damage.

fukiage> fukiage > ex tsurugi is godly damage and stun. if you use ex’s on all three parts it breaks 400 dmg, and even if you dont it’s still over 300. People will not jump at you if you’re on your feet and you do this consistently.

To be competitive makoto is going to require a lot of work, and i still believe she will have matches that are not 7-3’s but 8-2’s or worse. Akuma is definitely up there in retarded match ups.

112

I have had no luck AAing with Fukiage, save for hitting bad cross ups with lp Fukiage. I’ll play with it some more, but any videos would be greatly appreciated guys.

113

At like 3am I started finding that this move may be the key to some of the REALLY bad match ups because when people realize how good s.mp is they start going for a REALLY close jump in on you. I’m also starting to find that U2 is actually becoming useful because of people dying before they get karakusa’d. At least for matches like Akuma when you’re in the corner because you have no type of OH SHIT move other than EX Oroshi and he has very safe options to get away from it. You’re not landing any type of kara on him unless you brain rape him which is hard cause if he’s not trying to jump away then he’s mashing reversal or teleport (both punishable but not kara’d punished).

Also im trying to find an effective way to fight Deejay and Guile as they throw a lp boom and follow it not much you can do. . . .or maybe im late on my EX IAT?

114

I’m in the same position. Every time i try it, I completely miss or it gets stuffed cuz i do it too late. RARELY does it ever connect and think that’s just pure luck.

115

If you’re going to call makoto’s matchup with akuma 2-8 you might as well call sakura or any other rushdown character with a poor wakeup game 2-8 as well. :lol: Why do you think it’s worst for her?

116

I’m thinking maybe EX Hayate if there backdash is slow as hell or if you buffer it fast enough so it just comes down to being “psychic”. I’m just doing theory shit atm, since I actually havent tested it out either. EX IAT sounds cool actually. If they decide to jump, you can catch em and knock em back down again, repeating the cycle.

I haven’t been playing a whole lot tbh, since finals are coming up and I’m getting swapped with work now, not to mention my stick crapped out on me. However, there is a small SSF4 tourney at my school, so I’ll try to test some stuff out there. Hopefully I might be able to find an answer to the backdashing problem, as well as learn some new matchups.

117

With a lot of practicing in training mode (well not a lot but some quick testing).

Anytime you’re hitting c.lp (1 or 2) and your opponent is blocking (or sometimes even getting hit) they fear being kara kara’d or put in a IAT mix up so they will

A) Jump Away
B) Neutral Jump
C) Reversal (DP or mash jab)
D) Back Dash

A - With this all I TRULY found was kara-fukiage but it didn’t hit all the time so it’s all types of unreliable. At least for now I could need to do it a little differently but it CAN hit.

B- Neutral jumping is what most competent people will try offensivlely and defensively and makoto COMPLETELY stops this with meter (and probably with out). Only way it truly works is if they caught you flat footed and you didn’t react in time. You can EX Fukiage this for free like once they neutral jump they have pretty much given you that damage

C- If they are intent on reversals we know how to stop those so no need to really talk about and we know to IAT people trying to mash you out with jabs after c.lp

D - I haven’t found nothing super reliable other than some risky tactics which I don’t understand rofl Like if you think they are going to back dash AA you, you can do a late jumping Tsurugi mk or EX and it will trade or beat most DP’s and normal AA’s except for Rose’s Soul Throw I had no dice beating that move. And I had to use EX most of the time in general as it lifts Makoto “right” above the AA and hits her clean. DP’s it just trades or wins not sure how to time it yet because it’s a flat out guess as of now especially if they just sat there BUT that’s what I want because then the mix starts with c.lp, c.lp IAT/Kara Kara/EX IAT/EX kara Oroshi

Any other things that can be added to this let me know and I’ll edit the post with more info on that specific situation as I seem to find myself in that one more than anything.

118

I’m by no means an expert, but my impressions so far with Makoto are that she really requires you to be patient. You can’t just steamroll people anymore, but that’s been said millions of times. Being an opportunist rather than a beast untamed is necessary.

I hope when they tweak the arcade version they slightly up her walk speed, though.

119

Would anyone happen to know how you’re supposed to get around fireballs with Makoto? I’m having a hard time here.

120

Block, jump, FADC forward, Instant Air Kick forward, EX orochi from footsies range