Characters with a good wakeup game also struggles with viper shenanigans.
Doesn’t that go without saying? That’s why I wanted to start talking about that matchup and what you guys think Makoto can do to deal with it or keep herself out of those situations.
And yeah, Viper shenanigans are too dope.
Lp Fukiage is really fast, it seems, so that may very well help with her jumping madness “I BOURN YU ALL DAHY” shenanigans
depends on hit box (of course)
Fukiage looks like it can hit right in the middle of Viper as she’s in the air (RIGHT IN THE VAG!!!), but like u said, there could be a hitbox issue there. I wonder if Mak’s cr. strong can go under Viper’s burn kicks or something. I remember a few characters being able to do that in vanilla.
Dude, i’m just brainstorming =)
I’ve seen fukiage trade a lot when used as anti air.
Wake up dash under crossup may not be so bad in some circumstances.
I know Chun can do that. so with Makoto’s dash speed, dashing under wakeup crossups sounds good. However, I heard if you backdash against Gief and he has U2, he can hit u with it. since you’re considered airborn during a backdash.
I saw a video floating around with someone testing this out. I should have favorited it. =/
I recognize the effort in this thread by the OP and the comments made, but I have much information on matchups taken from the streams & videos which I watched.
I played Makoto only a tad bit in 3S but I plan to main her and her only in Super (previously Abel main, who’ll now be an alt).
Point being that I would like to start a new match-up thread, so I can post the (fair amount of) information I gathered so far. And of course, I’d be updating it at least every other day when need be, as well as adding my own notes.
Hope this is okay.
Let’s not post matchup -ideas- but solid facts about the matchups, which we won’t know until super is out there for a while, making assumptions on certain matchups when people haven’t even developed the character is a silly way to go about things
Like the guy above my post said, we wouldn’t really want to put up any matchup stuff until the game has been officially released. However, if you do feel that your info is legit and can be supported come April 27th, then by all means post it up here.
But I will say this. What sense will it make creating a BRAND new matchup thread when there’s nothing inside this one?
Hate double post
Random info:
- Makoto can block and punish Cammy’s DP with dash-in karakusa s.mp s.mp s.mp xx mp-hayate (250 dmg, 402 stun (506 w/ EX)).
- Depending on the spacing, Cammy can potentially punish a blocked (non-EX) hayate with a max-range cr.lp into a combo (probably a short one).
- At long range against Ryu, Makoto can hop over fireballs with lk-tsurugi for equal metre gain.
On Makoto vs Seth: I’ve been able to use EX-Karakusa after blocked Tanden Engine to fuck with his mixup a little bit. If he goes into bnb, it’ll grab him. This’ll force him to try and follow blocked Tanden Engine with his SPD more often, at which point I was able to catch him with an Abare. Also, I’ve been able to beat Seth’s neutral jump fierce with EX Fukiage and HP Fukiage. HP Fukiage often trades, though. Depending on the spacing and if he is launched high enough, you can land Abare after you land Fukiage. Also, I was able to punish blocked HP Shoryuken with Abare. What I’m using to get inside on many good zoning characters is EX Hayate as an anti-air. I try to get maybe 2/3 or half-screen away and wait for them to jump up or jump back, and I can usually catch them on the way down. Even with a trade in that situation, at least you’ve scored a knockdown and can move in. I recall being able to safely attempt trades with Dhalsims jumping fierce with Makoto’s standing MK, but I forget if that was working with Seth or not. It’s not that bad, but based solely on a few hours of Makoto v Seth matches I’d say it’s still maybe 6-4 Seth.
I’m actually having a much harder time with grapplers or anyone with a command grab. The range on karakusa is pretty disappointing and usually when I try to set one up, it’ll end up losing to an Oicho, or an SPD, or whatever Hakan’s 360 is… or even just a normal throw. Maybe it’s just me adjusting to SF4, but does anybody else feel like karakusa was way easier to land in 3S?
Things i’ve noticed RH TK tsurugi punishes all fireballs if done on reaction except sonic boom. Its mad awesome. Use and abuse.
Next against most of the cast after FP karakusa if they hold straight back they can walk out of it. You have to train them with cr. LK and kara normal throw to want to because if they don’t crouch tech your st. MP and cr. LK will eat them.
Honestly Gief doesn’t seem to terrible after a long play session because RH tsurugi stuffs Lariat if done at a good spacing, that with his slow focus attack means you can force him to use cr. mp for anti-air. your pokes are just as good as his and make sure to punish his jumps and use fp, st. MP, and cr. Mk for anti-air rarely is fukiage a good idea for anti-air. You sometimes can get a tk MK tsurugi for anti-air into ex hayate if your quick.
Gouken, well he punishes karakusa hard so using it really has to be trained into them. Also as awesome as st. MP is you got to cool it down your going to eat counter. Honestly I was losing hard till I started really abusing my kara normal grab to train him as he can’t nuetral jump punish that and when I baited a nuetral jump I was able to get an EX fukiage after the fp hayate. Don’t do it after MP or lp as your to far away and his nj. fp will eat you.
Ryu his dp is trash now so a well spaced RH tsurugi on wake-up will beat srk or trade very much in your favor. Sagat seems kinda rough but shutting down his fireball game lets you use your superior pokes and now that tiger knee tickles its not as much of a concern.
Anyone got anything interesting for Mak vs Bison? Watching the Spooky stream, and Sanford and Chris couldn’t figure out how to crack Bison with her (Granted, it was Jeron playing).
So far, that match doesn’t look good at all. They were having major troubles getting in on Bison. Any tidbits?
Pretty much most likely be more active. I’m always surfing Mak threads on my phone, so I’ll pretty much be able to edit immediately, and I’ll be playing only her of course, so I’ll have much to contribute myself making it for convenient for me to.
That’s pretty much it.
-You can beat any of his headstomps clean with fukiage, including EX. This requires quick reactions; it will still stuff headstomp if you fire it off late, but if it’s a devil’s reverse, he may be able to tag you before you can recover. Also, after a blocked point blank EX Psycho Crusher, you can forward dash (once he passes through) and you’re in range for a free counter. I had trouble landing karakusa from a point blank EX PC, but I’m fairly certain kara kara will land. If not, you get a st.mk->mp hayate, cr.fp, or, my personal preference, f.fp target combo (450 stun, god damn). If you have super+ultra, EX scissors is asking for a fist in the dick, and even if you don’t, you can punish with st.mp->mp hayate (or cr.lp -> lp hayate for reliability). This makes him have to seriously consider every one of his reversal options, which is always good for Mak.
-Fucking block. Don’t try to stop his cr.lk, don’t try to punish scissors unless it’s EX, don’t jump when you’re in roundhouse range, just block and wait for them to get impatient and try a throw, jump, or headstomp. As Makoto, you’ve got the tools to deal with all these things. This may be a fight where you simply let the enemy come to you.
-U2 is crazy quick, and if their reaction speed is even moderate, they can fire it off after a whiffed karakusa (that whiff animation is murder). Even if they’re not fast enough to land it on reaction, you’re still placed in that goofy crossup situation. Be judicious with karakusa.
-Option selecting st.mp/st.mk -> mp hayate is a boon in this matchup. Bison likes to throw out pokes ; tagging one, dealing solid damage/stun, and instantly closing the distance is not only effecting but feels damn good.
Sup BoomCube, TN rep!
Anyway, I got some more Makoto time in tonight and I wanted to share a bit of a general strat I had some success with.
Basically, I play aggressively with plenty of blockstring cr lp, cr lp, f+mp to get my opponent blocking, then I mix in a cr mp xx oroshi.
Once Oroshi hits I mixup:
f+hk, this catches players who are caught off guard by the oroshi overhead and reactively try to block high
f+mk, Karakusa xx anything
f+hk feint, Karakusa xx anything
dash in, st mp xx oroshi repeat above
Plus a few more variations on this theme. This works best against non-shoto characters, and any time your opponent starts to get defensive. A few reps of this tends to frazzle their nerves and leads to mistakes made. Oroshi’s hitstun is so good you can almost always dash up or command normal forward and either apply pressure, or go for mixups.
TN rep!
Hiryu reminded me of one other thing:
[media=youtube]6gVbvnmTNWY[/media]
At about 0:35, you can see st.lp -> st.mp->etc. comboing after oroshi. At first, I thought this might be a great new combo/hit confirm into super->ultra for her, but after trying it out in a couple matches (couldn’t get a shot at training mode, I don’t actually have the game), it looks like it’s character specific. I manage to land it on Cody (crouching, of course), but not on Juri, and they were the only two characters I played against. Just something else to try out once everyone gets some time in the grid room.
Standing and crouching strong own Viper’s burning kicks. I don’t recommend trying to EX Karakusa them, since the grab won’t catch up if she crosses up.
**vs some Mak thoughts after 2 days
vs Guile
-double sweep = block the first and FA the second or jab/short or ex karakusa(if close enough)
- for AA, standing fucking LOL mid Punch, MP fugaki(if u see it coming), cr. HK and st. MK on a distance, Ultra1 and Abare aka Ultra2(learn the angle)
dunno too much about this match up yet, its tough as hell, Guile recovers from Sonic boom really fast, if you jump in on action he’ll have enough time to cr.FP you. And Flash Kick can catch you backdashing. Super Guile can build walls better than before.
vs Viper
- if Viper is flighing your way, Mp Fugaki gets right up her ass.
- st. MP again is pretty danm good poke/stuff/AA in the fight
- i try not to karakusa too much, that woman punishes hard, i dunno how to do it effectively yet. Very fun fight:D
vs Blanka
- fuck that guy
- so far only EX hayate punish blocked Ball
dunno nuff yet, but fuck that guy
vs Zangief- cr. HK is a slod AA, and beats lariet
- block lariat(first 2 hits) and sweep and st. MP
- target Combo 2 safe on Block(?)
THawk
- mp hayate blocked Condor Dives(dunno if u can dash in)
- post-Hayate Tomahawks(srk), you will see alot of them
- either he’s jump-in or his jumping to Codor Dive, i hate this now, so just j.FP him in mid air
vs Deejay
- st. MP again, LOL and AA of the year, what a weird hitbox
Dunno much here.
vs Balrog- wow, i dunno if i was out of distance(i swear i was’nt) but Rog cr jabbed me out of EX karakusa…
- AA = Ultra1, st MP, st MK
- st MP today was stuffing ever Dash punch. but watchout of EX
jab ruined my life, jump in is dangerous, his cr. HP is insane.
vs Dic
- Go go hurry get in offense before he does
at the time, i did’nt test st MP much. it was hell pretty much when he was putting his scisor kick pressure on, no idea what to do yet.
vs Cody
- ax kick beats/trades aolt of his AAs, and he has a few of em
- RuffKicks are not safe, block and do your thing
so far he’s trouble for me cuz of jab jab jab jab -> something!!, and “BINGO!” punch is so fuckin good
** vs Ryu(he’s still a freakin demi-god). **
- ax kick is pretty important for moving in
- st MP:lol
Mak is also very susceptable to Focus Attacks, target combo 2 and fw. FP(tripple Punch) helps, but watchout for Guy FA, it can beat/trade both options
so far my horrible match-ups: Chun, Balrog, Guile, Dic, Sagat
edit: updated