Maki: Cvs 2 Rebirth. (AKA "The Sweet Ninja" )

[System_1]

*Originally posted by Mummy-B *
**Yo, not in real life. In real life, you stay out of c.fierce range walking in and out trying to punish and do your best not to get crossed up. Give me a poke she has that outright beats out:

Sagat’s c.fierce
Blanka’s c. forward, c.fierce
Cammy’s low forward, stand fierce, stand roundhouse**

Nothing does.

Which is why you need to punish them when you have the chance to, by anticipating their pokes and hopping over them (or sliding under them). Do this enough times, and they won’t poke as freely or as often, giving you more chances to get in close.

If you think you can simply outpoke Sagat, Cammy or Blanka with Maki, you’re not using her correctly. While she does have a pretty good set of pokes with forward kicks, they’re nowhere near as good as the ones you’re trying to beat. Stop trying to beat pokes with pokes and start beating their abuseable pokes by abusing the fact that they overabuse them.

I have absolutely no problem beating Sagat or Cammy using my “fighter theory” because I’m applying it. Let them poke at me all day if they want, because once I figure out when they’re going to poke, up and over I go, everytime. They stop after three or four times which frees me up to do the things Maki does best. I throw in hops and slides from time to time to remind them.

You have to get around these to land a 720. This doesn’t happen very often. You seriously do some gimmicky ass shit to land it. It’s never consistent when you land it, which only makes it useful as a mind game most of the time. It’s more practical to stuff an mk in a hole and XX death.

If this is your theory, you are definitely using Maki incorrectly. You need to do the “gimmicky ass shit” and use the mind game effectively in order for Maki to pay dividends against human opponents. There’s a reason she can do so much from her command runs. It’s to decieve people. You need to make them think twice about doing something to you, because if they guess wrong, they’re going to pay for it.

I fail to see why you think you must do a 720 often. I already explained what you should be using it for: After you’ve buttered people up to not attack you as often as they do. If you absolutely must land it, knock them down, then whiff close roundhouse/jump/cmdrun into 720 on wakeup. Very few people have the know-how to escape a wake-up throw super they don’t know is coming for sure (you could just backdash/jump again/regular attack, etc).

This being said, please explain to me why you’re complaining that you can’t land a 720 (when you need to be right next to the person) when you can’t land a linked kick super because you can’t get around their pokes. If you can’t beat their pokes with Maki, an unconventional character that uses unconventional fighting techniquies to win, then please consider using a different character.

[System_1]

*Originally posted by WindyMan *
Nothing does.

You should have stopped right there.

Which is why you need to punish them when you have the chance to, by anticipating their pokes and hopping over them (or sliding under them). Do this enough times, and they won’t poke as freely or as often, giving you more chances to get in close.

Or they can… wait until you command run.

If you think you can simply outpoke Sagat, Cammy or Blanka with Maki, you’re not using her correctly. While she does have a pretty good set of pokes with forward kicks, they’re nowhere near as good as the ones you’re trying to beat. Stop trying to beat pokes with pokes and start beating their abuseable pokes by abusing the fact that they overabuse them.

Now, why would I be trying to beat out thier pokes when I specifically stated that none of thier pokes could be beaten? You’re running around in circles trying to sound dope. Take a step back.

I said you walk in and out of c.fierce range (Sagat being the example) and punish. Check my post, I actually said walk in and out of c.fierce range. It’s up there.

I have absolutely no problem beating Sagat or Cammy using my “fighter theory” because I’m applying it. Let them poke at me all day if they want, because once I figure out when they’re going to poke, up and over I go, everytime. They stop after three or four times which frees me up to do the things Maki does best. I throw in hops and slides from time to time to remind them.

Before you start predicting random poke patterns consistently, you should look up the word “random.” Even then it’s not really an issue because a smart player will turtle and wait for you get close enough and unless you’re whiffing shit (like a stand forward) and baiting pokes, you’re not going hop over anything.

If this is your theory, you are definitely using Maki incorrectly. You need to do the “gimmicky ass shit” and use the mind game effectively in order for Maki to pay dividends against human opponents. There’s a reason she can do so much from her command runs. It’s to decieve people. You need to make them think twice about doing something to you, because if they guess wrong, they’re going to pay for it.

You’re confused. There’s a difference between gimmicky shit and mind games. Mind games can be repeated. Gimmicks work once, MAYBE twice.

I fail to see why you think you must do a 720 often. I already explained what you should be using it for: After you’ve buttered people up to not attack you as often as they do. If you absolutely must land it, knock them down, then whiff close roundhouse/jump/cmdrun into 720 on wakeup. Very few people have the know-how to escape a wake-up throw super they don’t know is coming for sure (you could just backdash/jump again/regular attack, etc).

Please quote me when I said you need to 720 often. Find it and quote it please.

While you’re contemplating the futility in that, realize that I said you SHOULDN’T BE TRYING TO 720 OFTEN. And please refer to the beginning of this thread where I listed those little tricks with Maki’s 720 about a few months ago.

This being said, please explain to me why you’re complaining that you can’t land a 720 (when you need to be right next to the person) when you can’t land a linked kick super because you can’t get around their pokes. If you can’t beat their pokes with Maki, an unconventional character that uses unconventional fighting techniquies to win, then please consider using a different character.

When did I say you can’t link a stand forward into kick super? Find it please. Quote me. I specifically said that it’s far more practical and better and use it and that it’s hard enough to get that in, much less getting into someone’s face and trying to 720.

Maybe you should learn to read before thinking you’re hot shit man. Don’t patronize me.

[System_1]

if you dont mind i would like to ask a favor and it is if you can resume all the strategic of Maki because reading all this shit could take days and days and days and i’m really busy with other stuff…

[System_1]

Well, generally people start with page 1 and then work thier way up.

Might want to try that.

[vasAZNion13]

Well. I believe both you guys play N maki right? N maki should concentrate more on mk xx kick super anyways(no apparent reasons so you can correct me if i’m wrong on this one)

but i play K maki, and i’ll only attempt her 720 if i knock them down while raged, else i’ll be trying to land the kick super. Either one is scary enough. I think landing 720 and kick super really depends on the way you play maki. For 720 you really gotta be doing more pressure strings, knock downs etc etc…to have it be really effective. the s/c.mk xx kick super is for people who have better reactions/execution and use maki more patiently…

anyways, i’ve been having problems against sagat. He just kills me. s.short really hurts me(often getting me dizzy), and thanks to maki’s crazy jumping range, tiger uppercut always seems to get me when i jump…(also getting me dizzy) i thought about playing more patiently against sagat, but he can pretty much zone me out with his fierce/shorts

the onlyl thing i can think of against sagat is baiting a tigeruppercut and punishing, but baiting it often gets me hit by his fierces/shorts when i get near…

how does everyone play against sagat?

for blanka, it seems really easy for me(unless they RC blanka electricity really well)…since blanka doesn’t have a really good Anti air crossup…

for cammy, right after she does a cannon drill(safe one), what should i do? sometimes i try to wait a bit and do s.mk, but she seems to have enough time to cannon spike me out of it when i press mk

[System_1]

It should be noted that her Level 1 720 Super does about the same amount of damage as her Fierce-qcf+Fierce two-hit combo.

I think everyone has made plenty of Sagat comments all through this thread if you’d take the time to read them.

[vasAZNion13]

*Originally posted by WindyMan *
**
I think everyone has made plenty of Sagat comments all through this thread if you’d take the time to read them. **

EDIT:
okay i found the sagat vs maki stuff
it’s on page 9 if anyone doesn’t kno where it’s at

i dont’ recall seeing a maki vs cammy matchup though. and i have problems against cammy as well

another match up that i think it pretty hard for maki is geese. It’s hard for my maki at least. not sure why, does anyone else have problems with geese players?

[System_1]

Okay, I’m making a list of all my 720 setups:

knockdown, run up whiff stand fierce XX 720
knockdown, command run + RH hop over deadbody, cross up 720
(Only Shoto DPs totally clear these on wake up. I’ve grapped Iori and Kyo both out of wake up DPs and Sagat and Cammy too. Shoto DP, both people whiff, but you recover first so free combo)
Final Fight chain (end with d+fierce throw), whiff qcf+lp XX 720
Final Fight chain (end with d+fierce throw), step forward whiff stand fierce XX 720
short jump mk, slight delay 720
punch throw, slight delay superjump, cross up 720
throw/knockdown opponent in the corner, jump to wall, qcb+lk, cross up 720
jump to wall, qcb+lp, 720 (depending on opponent position, might cross up)

and I did a really cool one the other day, someone tried to bait a wake up 720 by jumping straight up and roundhouse

wake up tigerknee 720

Probably the pimpest grap setup but it would rarely happen unless they are afraid of your grab.

Against Geese:

Nothing that I know of will beat Maki’s stand forward. Walk back and forth and stand forward, high/low games and wall tricks, delay pokes sometimes to bait jumps and AA with either c.fierce or KKK. If he does jump back rh or fierce, stand roundhouse will beat it if timed right (it’ll beat even Sagat’s jump back roundhouse in the corner). Easier time if you have short hop with the high/low games. Don’t be afraid to mash on KKK. It takes life, but it’s too fucking good. Anyone starts doing a block string, just mash the fuck out of it and if there’s hole in it, she’ll hit them for free and you gain momentum. Cross up attempts, KKK that shit every time. It’s free. Don’t worry about the life loss, it’s worth it if you can discourage the offensive because every time they try they get knocked on thier ass and you get to play games with them. If you start getting rushed down, wait till he gets in close and start mashing KKK to get him off. If you’re fast enough, if you get caught in sweep XX Reppuken block string, I am very sure you can command run immediate cancel RH hop over it and get a free grab.

Basically it’s about annoy the fuck out of him with stand forward. And super that bitch.

EDIT:

Added bonus - Geese doesn’t have a DP or a wake up move except counter or super, so Maki’s whiff shit on thier wake up XX 720 is pretty much risk free. Can’t be countered and can’t hit her out of it, either jump up or die.

[System_1]

*Originally posted by Mummy-B *
knockdown, command run + RH hop over deadbody, cross up 720
(Only Shoto DPs totally clear these on wake up. I’ve grapped Iori and Kyo both out of wake up DPs and Sagat and Cammy too. Shoto DP, both people whiff, but you recover first so free combo)

There’s a way to get shotos on wakeup, too. If you’re pretty sure they’re going to shoryuken you after a throw, jump in like you’re going to do a jump-in wakeup 720, but jump a little bit later than you normally would. Use d+forward in the air to slow yourself in the air, and watch as your shoto opponent sails up and away as you land, waiting for him to come back down (or go up and throw him out of the air for bonus points). The nice thing about this is that if you jump in a little too deep or you put out the d+mp move too late, you still might land right on top of their fist and totally stop them in their tracks.

I like using roundhouse on the wakeup to 720, because it looks a lot meatier than the fierce does. However, I guess using fierce is useful if they safe fall and you can still hit them with the normal version instead of the close one.

Don’t forget about the command run straight into 720. It works if you can get them afraid of overheads and slides, I’ve done it more than a few times, even against Sagat and Cammy players. It’s really fun to pull off, too, since no one ever sees it coming.

Here’s a video I whipped up highlighting one of the many ways you can setup a running 720:

http://windyman.phazonomicron.com/cvs2/maki/maki_low_combo_720_setup.avi
(1.2mb DivX 320240 0:13)

Do a crouching jab jab short chain, then go directly into a command run overhead. This works great as just a regular pressure chain, even if they block it. You might hit them with the overhead if they crouch block it, and you might still hit them yet on a late crossup. The first two parts of the movie show this.

The third part is the same opening chain with a difference, a run straight into a 720. You might be wondering how the short, command run, stop and throw can come out so fast, but it works.

Finish the 3-hit chain with the crouching short, then start the qcf motion for the command run. By this time, you should be letting go of short, which will activate the command run. Keep the joystick moving in a circle, hit short to stop the run at about the upback position through the second joyspin, then punch to activate the throw. It can actually come out much faster then I’ve demonstrated in the video. This works because after you’ve done the first chain to have them looking for the overhead exclusively, by the time they realize you’re still on the ground, the super will be out and they’re going for a ride.

[vasAZNion13]

Against Geese:

his c.fierce pretty much stops my cross up mk everytime, so i’m assuming to cross him up he needs to be distracted by something(i.e. do cross up when he’s doing some random pokes)

his s.rh always knocks me out of the air right when i small jump
sometmes i become predictable with the KKK move, and they either high counter, block it and punish.

i think if geese is on top(for the cross up that he has) you should just mash KKK especially if it’s a raged geese, since sometimes hthe side it crosses up looks ambiguous to me.

so it seems like you have to be pretty patient against geese when trying to get in, since his patterns can knock maki back onto the ground and setup for his annoying cross up. So use s.forward a lot like mummy B said? what should i do if he starts to get smart and can predict my s.foward and use mid counters, should i throw in c.mk at times to mix it up or is the c.mk shorter range not worth doing?

[System_1]

*Originally posted by vasAZNion13 *
**Against Geese:
what should i do if he starts to get smart and can predict my s.foward and use mid counters, should i throw in c.mk at times to mix it up or is the c.mk shorter range not worth doing? **

Yeah, you can’t keep doing the same pokes against characters with counters, because you’ll get countered before you know it. Mix up pokes.

There are also Geese players that like to jump up and throw fireballs down if they want you to stay away. You have no idea how easy it is to jump at them and land a 720 to shut them up.

[System_1]

*Originally posted by vasAZNion13 *
Against Geese:

his c.fierce pretty much stops my cross up mk everytime, so i’m assuming to cross him up he needs to be distracted by something(i.e. do cross up when he’s doing some random pokes)

You should be trying to focus primarily on your ground game. Geese will take you right out of the air if you make yourself obvious. You generally shouldn’t be jumping in too often with Maki anyway, against anyone. She’s got a stupid, Bison-like jump arc, but doesn’t have Bison’s priority in the air so it’s not a good idea.

his s.rh always knocks me out of the air right when i small jump
sometmes i become predictable with the KKK move, and they either high counter, block it and punish.

If this is happening, you are being way too predictable. I’ve never had these problems when I play Maki. I’ve been blocked and punished before because I’ve been baited, but I can count how many times on one hand that’s happened. You need to work on your ground game and solidify it, but that just comes more and more with playing with her, so give it some time.

i think if geese is on top(for the cross up that he has) you should just mash KKK especially if it’s a raged geese, since sometimes hthe side it crosses up looks ambiguous to me.

Yes. Mash that shit. If he crosses you up, it’s free because he has JD the opposite direction he’s facing.

so it seems like you have to be pretty patient against geese when trying to get in, since his patterns can knock maki back onto the ground and setup for his annoying cross up. So use s.forward a lot like mummy B said? what should i do if he starts to get smart and can predict my s.foward and use mid counters, should i throw in c.mk at times to mix it up or is the c.mk shorter range not worth doing?

You shouldn’t worry about c.mk. It’s okay, but it only cancels into a super and so stand forward is alot better.

If you mix up your pokes and high/lows, you should be alright. Once you get him on his back once, you can start playing with him. Meaty stand forward, step back, do it again, sweep, command run RH hop, jump to the wall, cross up wall dive kick, etc etc. Just change your shit up. Maki over all shouldn’t have too much of a hard time with Geese IMO

[ZenFire]

Hi Maki players.
I wanted to post something I came up with, I don’t know how useful it is to you guys, but it’s interesting either way.

To put it simply, it’s just a few ways to get in position from where you can do normal xx Kick-super and it will only hit when your opponent is sticking out a limb. If the other guy does nothing then the normal just whiffs and the Super won’t come out. They all start from right next to the opponent.

cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lk … cr.mk xx kick-super

*the first three hits combo, but if you do it too fast you won’t move back enough.
*Does not work on some wide characters.
*by far the safest, because cr.mk recovers quickly even when whiffed (as opposed to st.hp).

• sucks cus first part is only useful as part of blocked string… and cr.mk has sucky priority.

cr.lp, cr.mp xx qcf+lp … st.hp xx kick-super

*obviously only works when the first part is blocked.
*can beat Sagat cr.hp depending on timing.

cr.mp xx qcb+lk ~ lk … st.hp xx kick-super

*speed of the run-stop defines the distance. so again, it shouldn’t be done too fast. Thin characters shouldn’t be a problem.
*beats a lot of things because Maki’s Tonfa (the weapon) cannot be hit (as opposed to Dhalsim’s arms and legs).

In all cases if your counterhit knocks the other guy down (out of the air), the super will miss. And so… it’s not all that great, but I think I’m going to use numbers 2 and 3 myself.

[ZenFire]

Ok, I’m revisiting my Maki strat. I know I’m not much of a practical player, I like coming up with stuff that’s quasi useful.

No comments yet on the above post, not even an “it sucks”.

So here’s what I’m thinking right now:
Most of you agree that Maki just walks around abusing s.mk (within limits) AA’ing with cr.fp… zoning etc. etc.
Even if you don’t agree, that’s what I think her game should be at mid-range.

I came up with some stuff to do up close. First off, getting close:
AA cr.hp, run/dash up-close…
punch throw, walk, j.mk crossup…
sweep, run/dash/smalljump…
bla bla bla…

Up close the stuff revolves around:
cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lk

From there you can:
A)** xx lvl3 Kick super **
*only if it hits, of course
*lvl1 won’t work AFAIK, dunno bout lvl2
*I wish I was better at doing qcfx2 on the 2P side

B)** st.mk**
*kills most retaliation, excluding anything with invincibility

C)** small jump mk**
*crosses-up crouching characters
*sets up another close range game
*works wonders against blanka and sagat cr.hp

D)** cr.mk xx Kick super**
*see my previous post, option 1

E)** whiff far.s.hk, 720**
*not THAT fast, but fast enough IMO
*use in case of turtle, low-blocking everything
*this is my original 720 setup… crazy! gimmicky!

F)** cr.hk**
*sweep the bastards, their barely in range for it.
*sets up nice ambiguous crossup with empty small jump (delay to stay in front otherwise get behind them in desceptive manner)
*my guess is you won’t land this very often (ever!)

In theory it’s pretty water resistent (as opposed to water proof) IMHO. People that roll after st.lk can probably super you, but if you stick to st.mk you can throw them on time.

PS
After B) you can try s.hp xx kick super… just like in D)… it’s not wasteful… go on… try it… only works on counterhit etc. (see previous post)

[vasAZNion13]

*Originally posted by ZenFire *
**

No comments yet on the above post, not even an “it sucks”.
**

Well, most the stuff you posted are already mentioned. some are pretty common stuff to do to get in. and the other stuff that i haven’t seen before sounds like they work, so i can’t really say much except maybe “good job making a organized list for new comers to read”?

well anyways it’s some good theories you got there, hope you get to try it out in game and find out what works more effectively , etc, etc…

back to GEESE:
yea i played a few geese players and you have to be really patient. no random jumps in, KKK everytime he tries to cross up mainly cuz it’s a free hit . s.mk at certain distances. geese REALLY cant’ do anything. his s.rh gets snuffed by s.mk if it’s not abused too much. i think maki vs geese favors maki imo.

i noticed yamazaki hurts maki a lot. any tips against him?

s.rh out ranges my s.mk
his j.mk snuffs all my normal AA’s.
his c.hp eliminates my chances of cross ups…

[System_1]

Think I’m going to do a basic Maki vid.

[Duck_Strong]

I’ll be anxious to see it…

[vasAZNion13]

*Originally posted by Mummy-B *
**Think I’m going to do a basic Maki vid. **

i think i’ll watch it.

i recently saw some more matches of iyo(very old vids)

i saw him do s.short, c.mp xx insert move as a block string

does anyone know if s.short gives enough block stun that allows the c.mp to come out uninterruptable? if not, would it give enough block stun that it’s hard to DP out of? or was iyo just mixing up his blockstring so well that it didnt’ even matter?

[iKlEiTlH]

i swear to god all your lives would be better if you simply learned to punish whiffs with s.mk xx kick super.
like no joke
stop trying to learn crazyass 720 setups and other tricky crossups or whatever and get s.mk xx super down solid.
tricks are good, but relying on them completely is random.
s.mk xx super is arguably one of the best combos in the entire game. learn some footsies and get good enough to punish whiffs with s.mk.
i’m not talking about a whiffed fierce dp or level 3 super… maki can cleanly punish even the best pokes in the game such as cammy’s s.fk or (i think) sagat’s c.fp. it’s not easy, but it’s possible.
i know someone who doesn’t even really use maki, but can beast on totally solid players simply because his ground game allows him to land s.mk xx super nearly everytime he sees a whiff.
i’m not saying to limit your maki-game to that one combo, but dayam that shit is effective…
it really ought to be one of the first things you learn with maki, and one of the things you simply have to master if you want your maki to reach a higher level.
if you really focused on catching whiffs while you played, you’d be surprised just how often people throw out random moves that can be punished.
either that, or maybe you’ll just end up playing someone who punishes 80-90% of the “safe” moves that you whiff yourself.

[System_1]

Nah, it’s not about the 720 really at all. It’s gimmicky and gets itself in a couple times, but it’s more good shit to know if you have the opportunity. Like, mk XX super is the best option no doubt, I was saying that before. Always nice to have some fancy shit though, too, just to show off. heh.

Speaking of which, I’m just doing a 720 Exhibition. I’ve got over 10 grab setups and a few of them are fucking tricky as shit on your opponent and I have landed them frequently, and some of them are very basic and everyone knows them, but I’m grouping them in one bunch since its just a conglomerate of setups. I actually also stole one setup from iKeith after watching his match with Buktooth, heh.

And mostly because I’m bored.