Make Bison more competitive

Street Fighter V M.Bison
81

New list:

I’m not trying to balance Bison around the actual metagame. I’m trying to balance his moves around what I understand to be his design. I know he might sound overpowered after these changes, but they also consider that characters like even Ryu, Nash and Ken will be buffed!

Dash duration reduced to 20f
2 last frames of Dash Forward are cancellable into attacks. (this should come only if input lag is decreased by at least 2f).

Cr.LK 4f->3f. Old beta 1 value.
Cr.HP startup 10f -> 8f. Old beta 1 value.

Shadow and Psycho Axe pushback increased. This will make Shadow Axe stronger, but Psycho Axe weaker.

Psycho Blast startup decreased to 8f/12f/16f.
Psycho Blast Recovery reduced by 2f, 3f, 4f. Block advantage now: -2/+2/+6
Edit: Psycho Blast’s hitbox during the first 4f is smaller (beta 2). Deals 80 damage and more pushback. Because of the added frame advantage, being too close could be problematic.
Edit: Psycho Blast’s hitbox during the remaining frames is bigger (beta 1). Deals 70 damage and regular pushback.
VT Psycho Blast follows same framedata

Bison becomes airborne sooner and hurtbox greatly reduced vertically.
Scissors 150 stun… as it should’ve been.
Scissors hit advantage +2 and Scissors VTC Advantage +6/+8/+10. Scissors LK can’t be +3 if Bison has a 3f light. VTC Advantage will increase dmg output.
VT Scissors have same speed, pushback, and damage but added invulnerability. Bison shouldn’t lose tools when activating VT.
EX and VTEX Scissors 160 damage.

Inferno active time +6f. This move needs to be his barrier as designed.
Non-EX Inferno damage +10. Help Bison’s lack of damage a little bit.
VT Inferno matches framedata. EX is +3 on block. EX Inferno is inferior to EX Scissors as it is. The block advantage will help a bit.
Make Bison lean forwarda bit less during Infernos. Will affect range, but the move will work a bit better as a wall.

VT Headpress is fast as EX Headpress. Again, Bison shouldn’t lose tools.
Headpress OTG again. Only usable in Cr.HK CC situations. Specially helpful once VT is activated, as he can’t perform wallcarry.
Headpress EX keeps its projectile invulnerability after touching the opponent. Otherwise, Fang’s projectiles will hit him.
VT EX Headpress has a shockwave that forces block advantage to +2. Dives can be aimed, but vtex hp is always the same advantage. When Birdie or Zang block this move, they’re +.
VT EX Headpress hitbox active 4f before. Make it better as an air-to-air.
EX Headpress invulnerability removed. Well, it’s not reliable anyway, so let’s design Bison around his reliable tools.

Proximity to opponent no longer factored to allow Devil Reverse.
Devil Reverse falls slightly faster.
Devil Reverse hurtbox reverted to Beta 3 size. Really, it’s way too big. It’s not that rewarding.
VT Devil reverse works like regular devil. Must input kick to teleport behind. Same to ex devil. Bison shouldn’t lose tools.

V-Skill is dash cancellable. Its “parry” function is really difficult to use and hardly gives any advantage. Way too situational.
V-Skill v-gauge gain increased.
V-Trigger activation 5f. This will increase Bison’s dmg output.
V-Trigger meter now 3000f instead of 1500. This way, Bison can actually use his VT Specials to zone the opponent, instead of try to rush in and deal burst damage.

Bison will be probably a wall like this, so 950 stun remains.

82

Another thing I want is st.fp to be 10 frames -5. It would be a lot more usable at those numbers. That one frame really makes a difference.

83

My final and realistic wishlist is:

-st.LP +5 on hit
-Inferno MP/HP +50 stun
-cr.HP improved hitbox right above his head
-V-Skill 4f startup.

I doubt Capcom is gonna make complete overhauls of the characters. I think these 4 things would greatly improve Bison while being completely acceptable in the meta.

84

I want…

-2 bar VT instead of 3
-Faster start-up on Cr.HP
-Additional white health damage on all Knee press

85

Knee Press doesn’t even deal white damage.

86

I need this plus:

At most 19f forward teledash but I think 17f frame is a fairer deal.
Backward teledash for visual consistency and make his dashes less telegraphed.
SK is considered airborne.

VT Devil
LP = No teleport
MP = Teleport front
HP = Teleport back
LP + MP = EX teleport front
MP + HP = EX teleport back

87

Yes, I’m sorry…it doesn’t. I should stop drinking :s

88

Final list:

Overall

  • forward dash decreased by 3f (22f>19f) / range covered slightly decreased (amount of invincibility remains the same)
  • backdash decreased by 2f (22f>20f) / teleport animation
  • stun increased to 1000 (950>1000)
  • Back throw: Opponent is slightly more near Bison (still just in range for df+HP)

Normals

  • stLP: chainable
  • stLK: chainable
  • stHk reverted to beta 4 (hurtbox reduced + hitbox slightly wider)
  • stHP startup reduced by 2f (11f>9f)/ Recovery decreased by 3F (21F>18F)/ +2histun/blockstun -> changes frame adv from -1/-6 to +4/-1
  • crLK: startup reduced by 1F (4F>3F) / Recovery reduced by 1F (7F>6F) -> changes frame advantage from +3/+2 to +4/+3
  • crMk +1 hitstun
  • crHp startup decreased by 3f (10f>7f)
  • crHk startup decreased by 6f (15f>9f)
  • shadow axe hitbox now overhead OR +5blockstun -> changes frame advantage on block from -5 to 0
  • j.mk hurtbox reduced on the bottom (around knees)

Vskill

  • vskill startup reduced by 3f (6f>3f) / recovery reduced by 6F (30F>24F)
  • vskill projectile startup reduced by 10f (31f>21f). Free juggle
  • vskill activates vs low moves
  • add VT vskill that can reflect ex projectiles and is also cancelable into ex specials. Builds ex meter when successfully reflected something. Does not deplete from the Vgauge

Specials

  • all regular inferno recovery decreased by 3f. Hitbox size at the base slightly wider for better connection after when cancelled from certain normals (stHP…)
  • All regular psycho blast hitbox slightly wider
  • All scissor kicks hurtbox around feet all majorly reduced and moved upward / stun increased from 50+50 to 75+75
  • LK Scissor kick airborne on the 8th frame
  • MK Scissor kick airborne on the 10th frame
  • HK Scissor kick airborne on the 15th frame
  • EX scissor kick recovery after hit reduced slightly / juggle potential increased by 1 or 2 / airborne on the 6th frame
  • ex headstomp throw/strike invincible on frame 1-6 / tracking speed increased / hitbox size wider slightly
  • regular devil reverse hurtbox around his body majorly reduced / hitbox moved downward
  • ex inferno: Hitbox size at the base wider for better connection after certains normals (stHP…)

Vtrigger

  • Activation animation reduced by 2F
  • Meter use from specials reduced by 15%
  • All VT Scissor kick startup frame data matches regular scissor kick frame data. Invincibility remains unchanged
  • VT Devil Reverse comes out slightly faster
  • VT Psycho inferno active frames increased by 5F (16>21)
  • VT EX Psycho inferno startup frame data matches regular EX psycho inferno startup.
  • VT ex psychoblast no longer detects knockdown opponents. Speed slightly decreased.
  • added VT Ultimate Psycho Crusher: damage increased to 380

Critical Art
Hitboxes are projectile invincible (both regular and VT)

89

I like the requests above and some that other said but I whold only count with small things like better AA or better dash. These 2 whod buff Bison alot, if he had an unreactable dash like Nash and a good AA he whold have a godlike control of the mid range, you whold play at a range that people are scared of the dash because it ’ s hard to react and they whold use pre emptive normals to counter the dash, if you noticed that you whold use Axe and get a CC, if they jumped at you because they where scared of this you whold AA. Sadly now this isn 't super viable because they can react to dash because of how slow it is so they don’t have to pre emptive anything and they can jump at said range and if you get a trade than lucky you. 3f normal whod also help here or a light normal that on CH can go to MP into cr MP special.

90

I love your list @cerberusfx , very well thought out and really covers all the glaring issues. I think the ultimate list possibly lies between yours and Kriger’s, a marriage of the two. Since Kriger’s list covers some of the lower than average damage Bison has and some inadequacies in his specials.

Sometimes I feel we are asking too much with these giant type change lists but then again, why wouldn’t Capcom want every character to be optimal? Is it asking too much for each character to be the best they can be? Meaning they are really REALLY effective at what they are designed to do. I think getting Bison to be what he was intended to be is the best approach, make what he does or is intended to do well better, without giving him an excess of tools not intended for his archetype.

My most conservative changelist would consist of nothing less than:

1- Godlike forward and backward teledashes outside and inside of VT. I’m talking Nash levels but with the signature Bison invincibility. It should be end up being one of the best dashes in the game.
2- Godlike C.HP. Like one of the best AA’s in the game.
3- 3f C.lk.
4- VT lasts significantly longer -AND/OR- V/VEX specials consume significantly less V-meter -AND/OR- V-skill dramatically improved, granting even more V gauge per successful parry.
5- +10-15% Damage and Stun across the board on* all* specials, including even his CA (at least during VT).

These 5 things IMO are the top priority for Bison 2017, and these 5 things alone would significantly help him without breaking him or compromising the intended design.

91

Has anyone from Capcom said ANYTHING about how weak this character is? Like at all? Ever?

92

Combofiend acknowledged it.

93

Been thinking, how do you make Bison less linear (which isn’t necessarily the same as more competitive but I don’t think it warrants its own thread). Do you think the character would benefit from new command normals or a target combo?

94

I feel like a new move would be really helpful. I’m still learning this character, but I already feel like I pretty much know all my options and it’s just a matter of “read everything, make no mistakes!”, rather than trying to figure out how to mix things up for my opponent.

An overhead would be great, but I don’t see that happening, especially with how many aerial attacks Bison already has.

What I’d probably really like the MOST is is a 5 frame “defensive-ish” command normal. There’s this spacing where I feel like I am helpless as Bison, sort of close-mid, and I just have to wait until the fight moves farther or closer. Cr. MP works in many circumstances, but sometimes it is too slow and the Lights are too short. I’m not looking for a big damage opportunity, just something I could use to pop them and take a step somewhere else.

A true target combo would be nice too, but frankly I don’t think Bison has problems getting big damage in once he connects. Even if that damage always comes the same way 99% of the time.

95

I think the character would benefit a lot from Blast and/or Ex Blast putting airborne opponents in a juggle state on hit. Additionally or alternatively, Inferno when used as an AA should put opponents in a juggle state. I think this will open up Bison’s aerial game much more and allow for more creative use of his Head Press/Devil Reverse and J.MP.

Bringing back OTG head press to combo after CC d.HK would certainly be a great and unique asset.

I’d like there to be some more combo potential from his normals too. Right now, it seems the optimally repetitive damage combo is d.mp>inferno and an overuse of Psycho Axe. 3f d.Lk would be amazing in this instance and bringing back d.mk from the early betas, these would allow for more combo variations possibly.

I don’t care for an overhead but I won’t deny that a command normal Psycho Saber (Omega Bison) would look badass.

96

Updated:

Conditions: Other characters are buffed too + input lag reduced to 5f.

Dash duration reduced to 20f
2 last frames of Dash Forward are cancellable into attacks, otherwise Bison would be way too mobile for this game’s standards.
V-Skill is dash cancellable after active frames. Dash gains Counter Hittable properties for its entire duration.

Cr.LP 4f->3f.
Cr.HP startup 10f -> 8f. Bison needs better AA. He’s too vulnerable to jumps.
Cr.HK startup 15f->12f. No need to be so slow.

Psycho Axe pushback on block increased to avoid abuse with the new 3f.
Shadow Axe combos from S.MP naturally. +1 on hit. Meant for chargeless approaches for VTC.

Psycho Blast startup decreased to 10f/13f/16f to be more reliable on neutral.
Psycho Blast Recovery reduced by 4f, 3f, 4f. Blockstun reduced. Block advantage now: -2/+1/+4.
Psycho Blast damage increased to 80 during first 4 frames. Reduced hitbox and increased pushback during these frames. Important to avoid some loops that could happen because they’re too positive.
During later frames (5~), the hitbox can’t be interrupted by hitting Bison. Hitbox increases to Beta1 values and pushback is reduced. Damage also remains 70.
Psycho Blast arm Hurtbox decreased.
2 more active frames for the explosion to match animation.
VT Psycho Blast follows same framedata (just bigger damage and hitbox). Good for standardize everything.
EX Psycho Blast reaches 3/2 screens instead of one and has bigger blockstun. It’s way too weak for 1 meter.
VT EX Psycho Blast doesn’t activate on grounded opponents. Follows same rules as regular EX Blast. Standardize.
VT EX Psycho Blast travel speed slower (same as non-VT).

Scissors 150 stun. Bison’s stun output is too low because every special deals 100, which is not default.
Scissors airborne sooner.
Scissors hurtbox smaller vertically.
Scissors hit advantage +1 and Scissors VTC Advantage +6/+8/+10. Leaving it as +2 or +3 would allow followups. While Scissors itself is not receiving damage buffs, the VTC adv allows for more damage.
VT Scissors have same speed, pushback, and damage but added invulnerability. Important to make sure Bison loses no tools when he activates VT.
EX and VTEX Scissors 160 damage.

Inferno active time +6f to match animation and make Inferno more reliable as a barrier.
All Inferno use regular startup (14,16,18) but VT recovery (22). Blockstun reduced to retain same block advantage as non-VT infernos. Good for making it reliable as a barrier.
LP Inferno doesn’t lean forward.
Flames come out regardless of Bison being hit 2f before the first active hitbox frame.
Non-EX Inferno damage +10 (100,110,120 and 140 for VT)

VT Headpress as fast as EX Headpress.
Headpress hitbox similar to current VT Headpress.
Headpress OTG again. Only usable in Cr.HK CC situations.
Headpress EX keeps its projectile invulnerability after touching the opponent.
VT EX Headpress has a shockwave that forces block advantage to +2.
VT EX Headpress hitbox active 4f before. VT Inferno once again combos into EX VT Headpress.
VT EX Headpress deals 100+100/180 damage.
EX Headpress and VT EX Headpress only invulnerable to projectiles.

Proximity to opponent no longer factored to allow Devil Reverse.
Devil Reverse accelerates faster and falls faster.
Devil Reverse hurtbox reverted to Beta 3 size.
VT Devil reverse works like regular devil. Must input kick to teleport behind. Same to ex devil.

V-Trigger activation 5f
V-Trigger specials now spend 50 frames from v-trigger and EX specials spend 100 frames. Special cancels spend extra 50f (150f total).

97

Great list Kriger, but why did you leave his V-skill untouched? Bison’s ability generate v-gauge is definitely questionable. I think improving the V-skill’s properties is very critical in a game like SF5.

I’m still not convinced that Bison’s VT gives enough considering that it consumes both gauges to reach its maximum potential. Even after your changes. I think either lowering the cost or increase the damage output from ex cancels or VEX specials is the way to go.

I’d add to your list Bison’s stun gauge increasing to 1000-1050 range just like Urien.

98

V-Skill is dash cancellable after active frames. Dash gains Counter Hittable properties for its entire duration.
Many applications

After these buffs, I don’t think more than 950 is necessary. He’ll be a wall + offense monster.

99

I am a talentless hack and even I can win as Bison…the only weakness I fele is the whole jumping in on him. Whats the point of inferno when your knocked down again by the time ti comes out, routinely have to burn meter to throw out the fireball to escape.