just bring back st bison
As a Bison player myself… Zenken, Ultradavid and zeno hit the nail on the head.
The more and more you play Bison against decent opponents wielding the higher tier class, namely the usual RY, SA, ZA, etc with sound knowledge of the match up and Bison’s GLARING weaknesses, the more you realise just how much of a let down he is.
In terms of Honda, Merkicus is dead on. My best friend and closest competition mains HO/RY and in the local scene it’s always an uphill battle against the top tier cast who know what they’re doing.
Again, this isn’t to say that there’s no possible way to win. It’s just laughable that a bunch of players who obviously have no experience with said characters (who are most likely SA/RY mainers) commenting about the “strengths” of the characters, with the explanation of “GET BETTER LAWLZ”
/2cents
Like he said, it’s about the compatibility of the character and player. Does there need to be useless walls of text? :bgrin:
Hi, I play sakura. Stop complaing and “Get better”. I actually mean this. it’s not worth a rational argument if you think your character is a let down.
Also to quote a very important part of one of UltraDavids posts that you just seemed to not read concerning bison…
“He won’t show up at the top of any matchup charts or tier lists because he doesn’t dominate anyone, but he’s still a good tournament character because he has a great chance in almost every matchup.”
Get better.
I don’t agree that she is hard to use (at low-mid levels, she’s HARD vs people who REALLY know what they are doing, footsies must be on point or it’s RTSD hell for you), and I don’t think she has an advantage on Ryu.
Ryu will win in a fireball contest, c.mk is pretty good because you can FB to break focus, his focus is good and is always a threat vs chun, he has better setup ultras, rather than chun’s which is combo into corner. chun also has no “get off me” moves. 6:4 match imo. only advantage chun has over ryu is pokes but it doesn’t cop her out at all.
Some stuff Akimo does particularly well is:
-focus into ultra
-punishes disabled trip guard with s.lp, c.lp xx fp hhs, s.hk
-does not get his normals fa baited (s.fp, s.hk are both counter-hit when fa’d early)
-eagle eyes fireballs with ultras + supers
-whiff punishes with s.fp/s.hk insanely well
-does not jump more than 2-3 times per an entire round against sagat/ryu
-stays out of mid-screen against characters with far reaching jump-ins (extremely important to do against ryu and sagat in particular)
-meaties into hhs
-does not whiff normals excessively and for no reason (this is a big mistake a lot of us hondas make)
-does not spam n.j.fp which is heavily punishable by ryu/sagat (a lot of hondas do this)
-starts his HHS combos with c.lk
-techs like a f*cking champion (teched against a chun 8 times in one round in a trf final before)
-has beaten daigo before :X
Honestly, because of how hard Honda hits, he would win a lot of tournaments if not for sagat. Just sagat. He can fight ryu very well, he can take on rufus decently, he can win against dhalsim, he can keep boxer, dictator and blanka out for days and can lay the pressure on akuma with ease.
The reason sagat is a problem is cause you cannot forward jump high tiger shots 3/4 of the time, tiger shot recovers faster than hadouken, s.rh hits twice, tiger knee is a safe armor break that beats all headbutts and splashes with no invulnerability frames, and tiger shot chips a ridiculous amount. Anytime Honda beats a sagat, the sagat is either playing the match-up poorly (not throwing enough tiger shots) or he throws an ultra-able tiger shot that honda eagle eyes.
Ahem…
I, a shitty SF4 player, disagree with Mago, because…
:blah:
I was thinking of EX PC when I said that. Anyway, I used to think Bison sucked ass vs Ryu, but then I realized the key to that match up is to FA forward through fireballs and get into s. forward range. Bison’s foot speed + his s. forward/rh make him a very strong footsie character. The fact that his s. forward range is also his crossup forward range doesn’t hurt things (but his floaty jump does, which allows characters to walk under his cross up if they see it in time).
I really don’t see how people can hate on Bison. He has ALL the tools he needs to do well versus ANYONE. Yeah, he can’t combo into his ultra easily, but that’s not the end all be all.
Hey, I’m not hating, I think Bison is a good character who doesn’t really own anyone, doesn’t really get owned, and only has a couple losing matchups; imo he’s a good tournament character. Just saying, I know Gief and Dhalsim can both put a safe meaty out there and still recover in time to punish point blank (ie wakeup) ex psycho, ex scissors, ex stomp, super, and ultra, and I’m sure they’re not alone. Bison’s backdash, teleport, and ex dr are good ways to escape, but they don’t do anything to make the opponent worry about pressuring him. Again, though, that’s not hating, it’s just a downside to the character. Dictator still has good footsies, pressure, tricks, escapes, and ways around traps, and I still think he’s good and more than competitive.
Nah I didn’t mean you, you’re one of the top-tier posters. I meant other fools who post the same crap over and over either cause they want to create excuses for them losing with the character, or they just like hating for the hell of it, or they like to ride top-tier players’ nuts.
You. Are. Wrong.
Tiers are useful information to have available. They are not the sole defining concept that will determine who wins in a tournament, but they do measure relative capability. Those who look at tier lists as absolute and unquestionable measurements of matchups are silly, yeah, but most of the folks here are smart enough not to look at it that way. That doesn’t make the rankings bullshit, it just makes them something less than the be-all-end-all of character comparisons.
And who made you the arbiter of all things fit for conversation? Take that talking-down shit elsewhere, man.
Everyone has a style. His is more abrasive, but that doesn’t make him wrong. Street Fighter has always been about playing the person. Match ups are a huge part of SF as well, but you can have all the text-book matchup knowledge in the world, if the person you’re playing switches things up a bit and is more unorthodox than you expected, and if he uppercuts when he “shoulda” thrown, etc., then you need to switch it up in return. You need to adapt to the PLAYER, not the character. A character can be played in a million subtle different ways, and that’s why OG’s with massive experience over the decade+ of playing always have that edge, no matter if their execution has faded a bit, or if they haven’t been playing that much due to job/family. They will always have that built up gift of reading the player, and messin with his mind, and breakin his spirit, and then getting the win. And afterwards, you’ll be asking yourself all sorts of questions about what you did wrong, and seeing how your character does against his, and looking up frame data maybe, or going to training mode, but the reality was and is that he read you like a book, and until you’ve managed to get into his mind, he will beat you no matter what character you use.
Definitely think there’s a lot of that going on, yeah.
You’re missing the point. I’m not saying that playing the player is not the most important part of the game. I’m saying that tier lists have a valuable function within understanding the game, and that dismissing them as “bullshit” is simply silly.
The stuff you posted about Akimo is very true - I always like how he does the c.lk link to c.lp into hands.
Btw, here’s Honda’s EX Headbutt auto switching vs a crossup @ 40 seconds in.
[media=youtube]bFqHkD7DMZM[/media]
It happens. Most of the time it’s the honda player doing it on accident or doing it on purpose by actually taking advantage of the charge system - the timing is very strict on auto correct. (unlike DPs)
You can do what looks like an auto correct simply by charging then tapping back again (what is now forward doing the crossup) and executing a headbutt.
what about this points to me playing mike ONCE?
the fact that you missed this and posted this retarded crap is enough for me to see that your posts arent thought out at all and you dont even read other peoples points. which makes you stupid.
WHO DO YOU PLAY?
[quote]
agreed, mike is good but hes not valle,choi, daigo, wong etc.
so what makes you think that what he does with honda cant be eclipsed by another player…?
hes a living, breathing, human being that plays at the arcades quite alot, everyone out here plays against him alot. playing against mike or valle or paul or whoever is as easy as putting your quarter on the machine.
get the fanboy bullshit out of here.
because honda isnt a “command throw” character, maybe? ever played older versions of honda where he didnt have an ochio? lol HOWD HE WIN??? O MI GARSH!!!
if your getting jabbed out of ochio your doing it wrong. if you are playing him like hes gief or abel lite, your doing it wrong.
heres how it goes: TRAIN THEM TO BLOCK before you go for your ochio… seriously… its like you need fighting game 101 classes just to understand these simple points.
actually i do use honda.
LOL!
-dime
Selective viewing. That Honda was 1 for 4 auto-correcting ex HB against crossups. 1 for 8 auto-correcting Buttslams and the one whiffed anyways. But this whole Honda discussion is pointless. Auto correct EX HB/ultra and his beafy normals n.j.fp, s.rh, and s.hp were all realized within the first month of arcade release and didn’t stop Honda from being placed in in the bottom. This is about Mago and Daigo’s list that have him now higher than before. So whats new about Honda is the discussion.
Whats new is better execution of HHS combos which allow him to pressure with c.lp xx HHS, hit comfirm super from HHS, and HHS xx FADC, ochio mixups. Also a better understanding of his air normals which makes jumping in on Chun and Sim go from impossible to sometimes possible. But none of those improvements flip any matchups. He still losses to Sim, Guile, Sagat, Ryu, Abel, Rufus, Chun, and Ken, beats Viper and is even with the rest. I’m open to hear how a character can lose that many matchups and still be considered upper mid.
…
How does Honda lose to Ken, Chun, or Abel? I honestly don’t see how Honda has trouble with any of them (except maybe Chun but that’s imo).
I agree with Honda’s placement for many reasons. He’s a high vitality character who hits like a freaking tank. He has great jump ins (j.mp, j.hp, j.hk). His footsie game with c.lp HHS is extremely powerful. EX Headbutt is a VERY good reversal. I’ve played Hondas who’ve used all his tools correctly and tbh he’s a very hard character to beat if you don’t have fireballs.
But that’s in my opinion. I’m not gonna argue with people who think they know how he plays.