Lol wtf, sorry about this guys, I could’ve sworn I was in the Sim thread when I posted that =X Was just now checking it and saw a gameplay vid and was like… huh… where’s my post? x’D
On topic: is c.HP really that bad now? I didn’t get to check it out, but from footage I’ve seen even if it seems to have lost a bit of vertical hitbox, it still seems like a very solid AA for mid to long range jumps, no?
The way the range is right now on blast, and the speed on pillar, you’re not going to beat that out with either of those moves. It’ll lose just as cleanly as VSkill. Better to try and trade with cr.HP if that’s even possible, or just block.
You’d think that, wouldn’t you? Still mindfucked that it isn’t an overhead.
He can’t do that combo but he can do cr.MK, cr.LP into LK Scissors.
Tested some stuff:
LP Psycho Blast is probably -4 on block. MP is -3 and HP is the safest: -2.
EX Scissors is +0 or +1 on block.
EX Inferno and EX Psycho Blast are unpunishable;
Devil Reverse can be made safe and EX Devil is waaay plus on block.
Tested against Ryu’s LP SRK and Super and Ken’s EX Shoryuken.
Tried Inferno as a meaty, but had no success. Even when the flames hit Ryu once (guaranteed meaty), Bison wasn’t even near being recovered.
I wonder why tracking on the headstomp is bad. It seems to be an intentional design decision, since we know they can do correct tracking:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QGHDON_Lev8
I’ve seen Nadeshiko whiff by a lot depending on the opponent’s movement.
Bison and Nadeshiko’s tracking depend on the opponent’s position during takeoff. It would be really weird if Bison suddenly made a sharp turn while jumping.
[quote=“Spada, post:1291, topic:173968”]
This is the highest damage Bison combo I could find off a Crush Counter
[/quote]I’ll see what else I can come up with, but I do currently have this one that does more damage and doesn’t use V-Trigger (however it must be in the corner):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow_nx9u0IE
Anyone who is half decent at charge buffering should realise that motion input on inferno is actually a nerf in disguise.
All bisons 90% of the time will be charging from a down back position rather than down or back input and in the last beta you had access to all of bisons moves from this position, also by ending your input motion by returning to db you are then buffering your next charge move. (as we all know:)
By making inferno quarter circle it over-complicates the motion to retain charge from diagonal DB position which would potentially ruin some follow-ups/set ups not to metion ruin my muscle memory to charge buffer my next move.
I found in certain albeit very specific situations that EX inferno was a decent anti-air that also stoped cross-ups (I found no problems reacting with inferno as a charge input).
I honestly think that people who loves charge characters do so because of the aquired skill set they have developed over the years of playing them and would not want a casual appeasing motion move.
If I was a Vega main I would still be disappointed despite the fact he is gdlk in SFV because the charging skills I have slowly mastered with the character have effectively been thrown to one side…, I would be equally disappointed if Urien were to be in the game and no longer require charge as I loved the challenge of using him in 3rd strike.
Anyone who doesn’t mind think of the ryu argument that I have seen used before… how well would it go down if even ONE of Ryu’s moves were to be made a charge input… does anyone seriously think that kind of change to a main (thee main) character would be accepted amongst the sf community after all these years.
Lets see… from Diagonal Down Back Charge it would be:
DB,D,DB,B,DB … to begin charge buffering next charge move if inferno stays as quarter circle (motion) input
vs
DB,B,UB,B,DB … to begin charge buffering next move if inferno stays down/up charge.
Suppose it doesn’t really change much in the the grand scheme of things… may even be a buff now looking at that but still don’t want a motion input on Bison… the Ryu argument still stands.
It would make you lose your charge when you had a charge, but it would also allow you to store a new charge after pressuring with walking forward and using cancellable normals. Giving him another tool to use after the opponent puts you in a situation where holding onto your charge isn’t an option and making it something that’s plus on block to boot? That’s giving you a free charge where you previously had none.
That being said, as a charge motion the HP version should still be like +1 or something, since it gets blown up by jabs anyway.
Part of M.Bison Beta 2 frame data was collected .
Beta 1 frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/121CGD-b6uEGZg_JQ3W4fFx8OPDNu_qetqbwwDAtoSTs/edit#gid=774521635
[list]
[]His cr.hp is severely weakened in every aspect known to man, god forbids he gets a good anti-air with that walkspeed.
[]His teleport dash is slow at 26 frame , I really wish we get the old dash with better travel distance.
[] Lk.SK is -4 on block.
[] Inferno is severely weak move now, no wonder I haven’t bothered on using it even once in beta 2, its -10 with that kind of damage, I wouldn’t mind this if the damage was high but its not the case here. The recovery on it might be huge but the data is not available yet.
[] Psycho Blast is a bad move. it is slow, LP.blast is punishable (-6) , has no range and deals very poor damage on top of being charge. I don’t understand this at all. However, Ex.Psycho blast is good.
[] His st. lk is buffed.
[*] His cr.mp advantage block advantage is 0 (beta 1 adv was +1)
[/list]
I don’t understand this Beta 2 Bison, I shouldn’t have managed to pressure anyone with his specials in Beta 2 or get as many wins as I did if people knew about his frame data. His beta 2 design is not a pressure orientated character, he is not a high damage character compared to the rest of the cast (in his normal state, his damage is one of the lowest) and he is not nearly as mobile as Rashid. I don’t understand the spider chart, they are misleading.
With all that said and done, the game is still a work in progress so nothing is final. I hope they make all characters feel really good though, there is nothing wrong for a character to be strong ,provided that character don’t have unfair advantage over the rest of the cast.
Inferno as a motion is pure buff as it lets you do walk forward cr.mp xx Inferno. That’s pretty huge when it comes to whiff punishing.
I definitely agree, this is what I’ve been saying the whole time. You can’t play footsies if no one’s scared of your footsies. Without inferno being a valid conversion from c mp, he has no other conversions off of regular hit except v-trigger…unless you are expected to fish for counter hits or cch the entire game, which I think is unreasonable.
Regarding motion specials on Bison, I don’t particularly mind. He’s had teleport since Alpha, he had psycho banish as a dp motion, he has psycho sever in omega mode and his command throw. As long as he still has core charge moves (in this case headstomp and scissors) I don’t mind.
For me, charge was never important. The gameplan and personality representation is.
I could see Beta 2 Bison become a pure circle motion character and not be overpowered at all, for example.
As for Inferno, I don’t think it being motion will save this move outside EX and V-Trigger. It needs something. Maybe more active frames. HP Inferno could really be closer to what it was before…
Also, I’ve been wondering if V-Trigger’s special cancels can be used to punish V-Reversals (using EX Headpress for example). Still on EX Headpress, how good it could be as a frametrap now that Cr.Teching makes the opponent stand up?
Jesus Christ! Can we get his regular dash and a beta 1 AA back please?
All the terrible special moves…fuck
Bison’s damage really did take a hit, even relative to other characters.
That’s just testimony to how poor and borderline useless most of his specials really are.
Messed around last night on the infinite beta. It looks like Psycho Inferno (LP version) can anti-air kinda, but it’s slow and the positioning is key.
Tried to do basic V-Trigger combos off of j.HP, st.HP, VTC, cr.MP, LK Scissors. And the only thing I could find that seemed worthwhile was to cancel into EX Psycho Ball and then cancel into EX Scissors. Does about 60% stun and roughly 40-45% damage. So…Yay?
Why the fuck is his EX Headstomp worthless when you try to combo into it? Like, you can’t do it in a V-Trigger combo because the opponent can quickrise. And you can’t do it off of a j.MPx2 into LK Scissors because the opponent can quickrise. Plus you lose valuable meter and don’t have access to his GDLK super as a result. Why does this even exist as a combo if it’s undone by button mashing?
Bison just feels incomplete in this build.
Yeah, I take back what I said earlier; he’s doing piddly meterless damage and his cr.mp is even on block so he can’t really threaten to double tap it that that well in footsies.
I’m just worried that a bunch of characters don’t seem to have strong design goals and Bison is quickly showing himself to be one of them
479 as his highest damage combo (so far), but Vega can get 500+ damage easily.
Capcom y u no like Dictator?