CHUN, not by far now dont think me crazy, but fir a fact the RYU is DIC’s worst worst worst worst match up by far.
and no, what your talking about is corner crossup what i am talking about is midscreen pass thru, there not suppose to pass tru you on sf at all but, vega and blanka do as there falling.
when you have them in the corner then knock them down then KP or CP to get to the other side is not the same as say doing a LP_ SC and then just stand there in the middle of the screen and watch vega or blanka pass right through you.
this willnot work with any other player ion the games but these 2.
Interesting discussion, it seems to be hard to agree on which matchups are hard for Bison.
Here’s a chart I made a while ago, trying to condense people’s matchup opinions:
Bal Dha Veg Ryu Sag Dee E.H Chu M.B Ken Gui Cam Bla Fei T.H Zan Total
Balrog - 5 5.5 5.5 6 6 5 5 6 6 6 4 6 6.5 6 4 82.5
Dhalsim 5 - 4 6 7 6 4 4 5 6 6 3 4.5 5.5 6 6 78
Vega 4.5 6 - 6 6 5 4 5 4 5.5 6.5 5.5 6 6 7 6 83
Ryu 4.5 4 4 - 5 6 7 6 6 6 5 6.5 6 6 5.5 5 82.5
Sagat 4 3 4 5 - 5 5.5 5.5 5 5.5 6 5 5 4.5 6.5 7 76.5
Dee Jay 4 4 5 4 5 - 6.5 5 6 5 5 6 6 7 6.5 6.5 81.5
E.Honda 5 6 6 3 4.5 3.5 - 4.5 6 3 4 6.5 6 6.5 8 7 79.5
Chun Li 5 6 5 4 4.5 5 5.5 - 5.5 5.5 5 5.5 5.5 5.5 4.5 7 79
**M.Bison 4 5 6 4 5 4 4 4.5 - 4 5 6 5 5 5 6 72.5**
Ken 4 4 4.5 4 4.5 5 7 4.5 6 - 4.5 6.5 6 6 5 5.5 77
Guile 4 4 3.5 5 4 5 6 5 5 5.5 - 7 3.5 6 6 7 76.5
Cammy 6 7 4.5 3.5 5 4 3.5 4.5 4 3.5 3 - 5.5 5.5 7 7 73.5
Blanka 4 5.5 4 4 5 4 4 4.5 5 4 6.5 4.5 - 4.5 6.5 7 73
Fei Long3.5 4.5 4 4 5.5 3 3.5 4.5 5 4 4 4.5 5.5 - 6 7 68.5
T.Hawk 4 4 3 4.5 3.5 3.5 2 5.5 5 5 4 3 3.5 4 - 5 59.5
Zangief 6 4 4 5 3 3.5 3 3 4 4.5 3 3 3 3 5 - 57
In that chart, I had Bison’s worst matchups as Ryu, Balrog, DeeJay, Honda and Ken, but you guys sound not very afraid of Balrog / DeeJay / Ken and more afraid of Hawk, Vega and Chun. In particular I somehow had Bison 6 - 4 Vega, I don’t remember where I got it from.
Any thoughts on corrections to that chart?
I’d say Bison is harder for Vega than the other way around. Tick throws are Vega’s worst nightmare, and Bison has the jumping mp which can nullify wall dives. However, if you can start crossing-up Bison with walldives then the match advantage shifts.
I like the chart as it is.
I really don’t know a lot of the matchups to the expert degree to which I feel I can weigh in on them.
I do think the Zangief match is not in Dictator’s favor.
What do you think Kuroppi?
I also think that the Honda match is not terrible for Dictator.
Kuroppi? Megaman?
Also, I really think you need to balance players from each side of the match to get a good awareness of the matchup results.
While some matches FEEL tough for Dictator, it’s really the W-L results that matter here and not how difficult a match feels to play properly.
I’d say hands down Chun is his worst match-up, followed by DeeJay and then maybe Claw.
‘Hands down’ is a little strong language though your choice of character is certainly right in my opinion. I mean let’s say that we agree that Dictator versus Chun is 3.0-7.0, and Dictator vs Honda is 3.5-6.5. I don’t think that a single point difference is enough difference to say that Chun is ‘hands down’ the most difficult match for Dictator. If the margin was two or three points between Chun and the second hardest match then I would describe that match so. So even though I agree that she is the the most difficult match for Dictator, I think your language suggests too strong of a degree. Honda is right up there in terms of an uphill battle but Chun has a few weapons that push her just over the edge to take the ‘hardest match’ award.
I dunno,even when i lose to a good chun, i always see gaps where i could have swung the match if i executed things properly. Jumping MP and LK are godlike for shutting her aerial threat down. If i can beat chun’s air game (Diagonal jumping LK and MK) i can usually go toe to toe with her pokes and tick throws on the ground, whereas a mistake against a really good hawk is nearly always game over with very little chance of recovery. Against good execution of a tick 360, there’s nearly nothing dic can do without a reversal. The game’s mechanics leave you no winning option. I hate playing against claw, but i think that’s just me, and that match can go either way really quickly depending on who gets on the good foot first.
No way. I disagree. I put ryu vs dic as even, or if not, very close. They both have all the tools they need to beat the other guy, and unique strengths and weaknesses. On the same level of skill, i could play against ryu all day without breaking a sweat.
I’m not at all afraid of balrog since his tick game/throw loop was nerfed in remix. Crouching forward, and meaty jumping forward on wakeup, and TOD crossups are all fantastic in this matchup. Meaty crouching forward, crouching forward xx crusher/scissors is safe on block and is huge damage/stun on hit, and works really well vs boxer. You can win that match really easily off of one mistake by rog, even more than most opponents IMO. Deejay is a tough matchup, because he has a huge array of normals to fuck you up, particularly his hi priority crouching forward knockdown, his jumping LP “hand of god”, and his stupid corner pressure. A good attacking ken scares me a bit, especially online because of lag DP (i know that doesn’t count for tier lists, etc, but it’s still annoying), his tick game and close mixups are scary, and he can TOD you easily, but usually speaking he has to get close to really hurt you, so it’s easy enough to punish a mistake.
I agree with some of this, there are definitely aspects of this match that are scary for both sides. I personally hate this matchup, because i have so much trouble with the wall dive relative to the hurt i can reliably dish out when countering it, but that’s a gap in my skill, and it doesn’t really reflect what most players seem to think as regards how this one plays out. I think it’s probably about 6-4 in claw’s favour, maybe a little less, but there’s a bit of an edge for claw. I’ve seen how it’s supposed to be played and it’s definitely winnable for bison though. If you can get into that sweet spot as regards positioning, the match can switch direction very quickly.
I think this is similar to the claw match. The balance of it can shift very quickly, but both sides have what they need to win provided the spacing game is going their way. If you can work hard to keep good positioning, stick to a game plan, and chip away at gief it’s very winnable, but if he can lock you down you’re in big trouble without a reversal, more than most of the cast. This is like the Hawk matchup as far as i’m concerned, only not quite as scary because gief isn’t as “mobile” as Tony Hawk is. You have to work really hard to keep him off, and mistakes are really costly. If gief gets in on you he can undo all the work that you’ve done over an entire 3/4 of a round in about 5 seconds.
Dictator in space and in control is about 7-3 in his favour (he can hit and run away all day)
Zangief in close, and pressuring/locking down bison is about 7-3 in his favour (so easy for him to punish dic in the corner)
Overall i reckon it’s about 50/50
I agree. Dictator’s standing jab being buffed in remix added a lot to his game versus honda’s torpedoes, and DR is now a bit more useful for getting out of ground ticks. Also psycho crusher beats hundred hand slaps clean, and honda is very susceptible to fast headstomps from a distance, and negating charge using devil’s reverse and crossup stomps. If he gets in close to you it’s big trouble of course, but dic can counter attack and hit and run all day here. As far as i’m concerned, Honda is really only scary for dic when he’s right up in his grill. His arse flop, HHS chip damage, and tick ochios are his most threatening moves, and he needs to get in close to make the most of all of them.
Thats because your playing not so good ryu’s even though i always go even with DGV,calipower and uber cyber ryu (when the connection is good) no other fighter in the game give the problems to bison that ryu does i bet if you play any of these’s player you prob wont beat them at all, but, if they switch to KEN you would win hands down ryu fast FB and his overhead and the jumping MP works to beat bison hands down
I think a good Ryu is one of Dictator’s hardest matchups.
Bad Ryus play loose and sloppy, giving Dictator openings to wreck havoc and failing to drop the hammer on Dictator when in position.
Good Ryus play tight, segwaying from one position of locked down controlled space to another, controlling the range game one minute and then bringing the brutal lethal in-close mix-up game when in close.
Props to CaliPower:
[media=youtube]oJ5rQEYSk0Q&feature=related[/media]
[media=youtube]7KSY-ycIM94&feature=related[/media]
I think it’s important to note that there are very few really deep Boxer players on HDR XBL.
Play a deep Boxer like Afro’s Rog and see how you do.
Props to DeMavrick:
[media=youtube]NUbc2sUA-I0[/media]
[media=youtube]5IgsO-dxMpg[/media]
–
Also, keep in mind that my personal experience feedback on HDR Dictator is basically Dictator when played at a B+ to B- level. (depending on matchup)
(I am talking B+/B- relative to TOP LEVEL WORLD PLAY, not on a random day online on HDR)
I’ve done better against Uber Cyber Ryu than against DGV.
DeMavrick, can you post more youtube vids of you vs.:
DGV’s Ryu (or other good Ryu players)
BlueTallCans’s Blanka
Afro Legend’s Dee Jay (and more Boxer if you get the chance)
The Aqua Snake’s Fei Long
Baconology’s Claw
Kuroppi’s Zangief (or Haru Teyjo’s)
That would really help me out as these player matchups are ones I don’t have down.
I could be wrong here since I’m not on XBL, feel free to correct me if I am, but you guys don’t seem to have any top player Chun Lis on the level of say TechnicalMonkey or NKI. If you do, I apologize, but my point is that Ryus and Kens on DGV or John Choi’s level will screw any good Dictator player up. Question is: is a high level Chun Li tougher than a high level Ryu for Dictator? IMO yes.
Zass and Voltech play on XBL, they’re pretty much the toughest Remix Chun Li players I’ve seen so far. I have played neither NKI nor TechnicalMonkey.
Don’t forget Mongolorobokop (I know I fucked his name up. LOL.)
Or Bluemary69 on the forums.
He’s Voltech’s Sensei from what I hear! :karate:
Yep, this is the way ryu should play that matchup, and it’s a much tougher match than any other way of fighting with him, but still i think a good dictator will put up a good fight. Granted there aren’t enough really good ryus on XBL, especially where i can play, but you posted a good example of alex valle versus afrolegends showing how it’s supposed to be done. Ambiguous crossups, tick throws, corner escapes, etc. Either side has a sweet spot, if ryu can zone bison with lockdowns and the right spacing it’s extremely tough for dic to defend, escape, and deal damage, but if bison can get on the attack with combos, tick throws, and mixups, it’s a tough match for ryu too. On second thought, dic going evens with ryu was probably a bit ambitious. Maybe its slightly in ryu’s favour, and looking at guys like DGV, who is probably one of the best ryus in the world at the moment play, it probably is, but i don’t think it’s as wide a gap as some people think.
Yes agreed, there are very few really deep boxers on XBL, and the euro scene isn’t as strong as the west coast US is, but i have played a couple of very good rogs on live-Guys like NinjaGolf and a couple of others, and honestly i am not afraid of them. They’re always a fantastic match, but definitely winnable. Even the toughest relentless rushdown boxers are very beatable with bison if you know where their weaknesses are, and it’s not difficult for dic to turn that match around even from a losing badly position. I would love to play afrolegends boxer, but we’re just too far away from each other geographically/lagwise, etc, but honestly, from clips like the one you posted, his deejay (which is awesome) would scare me a lot more than his rog does.
I really think bison has the tool set to counter rog very well. (see mavrick vs afro) I am open to correction of course, but i just never get that “oh crap” feeling when i see boxer on the matchup screen before a match.
Mavrick, i’d be interested in getting your oppinion of that matchup, seeing as you’ve beat afro’s rog, who is hailed as one of the best. What do you think?
Normally when I see Boxer, I grin and rub my hands together.
Always a fun fight.
I am not the biggest fan of tiers and rankings because many people misunderstand their intent. The big idea which gets lost is that rankings are supposed to give a general idea of how players with similar skill or experience will fair. Instead, someone will say, “This match is 7-3, why am I losing?!”. Well, you aren’t equal or maybe it’s an off day or maybe the opponent simply guessed correctly. The stress should be on “in general” and “similar skill”.
That being said, I tend to agree with Taira’s numbers based on my history. For HDR, they are similar. Ryu wins a bit more because of fake fireball. Chun wins a bit less because of no flip kick ambiguity. Boxer wins a bit less because you can hit the recovering Buffalo and reduced throw range. Sagat is better than ST Sagat and worse than O.Sagat, so pick a number between the two for HDR. The remaining fights are about the same.
- Pete
**Thelo's average (HDR)**
Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag Dic
4 4 4 4.5 5 6 5 5 5 6 5 4 4 6 5 -
**Taira (ST)**
Ryu Ken O.K E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag O.S Dic
3.5 4 - 3.5 3 3.5 4.5 4.5 3.5 7 8 6.5 3.5 3.5 5 6.5 - -
**Nohoho version 3
Beasley (ST)**
Ryu Ken O.K E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag O.S Dic
5 4 4 3 5 6 6 5 4 6 7 7 4 3 7 - 1 -
**
Professor Jones (ST)**
Ryu Ken O.K E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag O.S Dic
4 3 4 3 3 4 5 5 4 7 6 4 5 5 5 - 5 -
**Sirlin (ST)**
Ryu Ken O.K E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag O.S Dic
4 5 6 2 4 5 6 5 5 8 7 7 5 4.5 7 - 4 -
**J. Wilson (ST)**
Ryu Ken O.K E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei DeJ Box Cla Sag O.S Dic
5 5 - 4 4 4 5.5 6 5 4 5.5 6 5 4 4.5 - 4.5 -
**T. Akiba**
**Diagram A (ST)**
RY OR KE OK EH OE CH OC BL OB ZA OZ GU OG DH OD TH OT CA OC FE OF DJ OD BX OB CL OC SA OS DI OD
4 5 7 5 3 4 4 3 3 5 5 5 5 6 4 6 5 5 5 5 5 6 4 6 4 4 5 5 6 4 - 6
I would say it has to be, BEEFBOWL that has the hardest CHUN on live
Ah ok. I’ve played Voltech a lot when I was a regular on PSN, and he had easily one of the best Chun Lis on PSN, if not *the *best. And I can just imagine that his Chun is a 1000 times better than the last time I played him. Mongolorobokop I’ve only seen on vid (not too sure about Zass), Beefbowl I’ve never seen tho.
Though I played TechnicalMonkey a long time ago on PSN, he still has the best Chun Li I’ve ever played IMO. It was only 2 months or so after Remix’s release, but the dude had her new SBK trajectories down cold, and was using them well against my Hadokens and jump ins, as well as to escape a couple of my rushdown tactics. He could even do the low, ground skimming Air SBK reliably, both forward and backward versions. I only played him once, in a set of about 10 matches and lost all but 2. Dude rocked me hard. = ( It was lots of fun tho. = )
Not trying to take anything away from the aforementioned great Chun Li players, but to *this *day, I have not seen a Chun Li player that uses her SBKs that well. They can really screw up a rush down character like Ken or Dictator, esp if you’ve never encountered all the diff versions of the Air SBK. And that was not even his strongest game. The toughest thing he did was mixing up meaty st Strong into throw/Legs/sweep mind games. I’m just saying, I would never *dream *of using my Dictator against his Chun Li, and not just cuz Dictator is not my main, but cuz Chun Li has a greater throw range than Ryu or Ken, which IMO makes her tougher to reversal throw when using Dictator. Not to mention the high priority on her jump attacks like neutral j Short.
I’m just saying that if you only play high level Ryus like DGV and not high level Chuns like TechnicalMonkey, then yeah, your opinion of the matchup difficulty vs Chun may be slightly skewed. My point though, is that even though all 3 characters (Ryu, Ken, Chun Li) have an advantage over Dictator, Chun Li has a slightly bigger advantage IMO. Though I think all 3 matches are very winnable for Dictator, and are not unfair at all.
I have made it a point to play all the BEST chun players out there like, TechnicalMonkey , NKI, MONGO, VOLTECH and so on i have been playing NKI since ST and, like i said before even though its a hard match i still beat him in it But, when you play a great RYU player it’s all diff. Do this go in to a room 1 on 1 anad, play a really ggod chun player you’ll prob win 2 out of 5 or so dependens on whos your playing against
Then go into a room with a really good. No a mediocre RYU player and they will give you the same trouble if not more for the simple reason that ryu is more harder for DIC then any player in the game
Both can be tough because both have a dangerous air game - chums jump shorts and Ryus jump strong. This makes the growlund game so much tougher and you often under pressure. Chums throws are deadly, but so is ryus mixup. Overall I tend to worry more about ryu matches, but it’s true there aren’t enough good chund on Live.