Looking for Love: Ibuki General Discussion Thread

[MingoDynasty]

Mingo, I always been meaning to ask you

What’s your opinion on Ibuki/Sakura?

I think it’s 5.5 - 4.5, slightly Ibuki favored, or possibly 5-5. I think I made an Ibuki vs Sakura analysis some time ago, but I dunno where it went.

In terms of midrange footsies, Sakura should be doing cr.MK and st.HK and nothing else. cr.MK is Sakura’s all around good poke, and Ibuki has no perfect answer for this. f+LK works but Ibuki’s spacing must be on point, and most especially, the stupid hitbox on Sakura or EX tsumuji or whatever won’t allow it to combo 100% when you use f+LK xx EX tsumuji to counter poke cr.MK. Stupid Capcom. Ibuki can choose to fight back with cr.MP or st.MK, but both aren’t without problems. cr.MP is much slower (though it does have plenty more active frames) and st.MK has a lesser hitbox. If you use st.MK your spacing has to be on point, and you’ll most likely be using it as a whiff punish. Ibuki’s cr.HK is also a good whiff punisher.

Sakura’s st.HK is also an excellent poke, but is more riskier as it’s slower. Small fact: Ibuki’s slide can go under st.HK and stuff it every time. Kind of risky though.

I’d say Ibuki’s primary tool in this matchup is going to be FA. It has about the same range as Sakura’s st.HK. What’s notable about it is that it moves Ibuki’s lower hitbox forward, like her leg or something as she’s charging up. This means that even though Ibuki is right outside Sakura’s cr.MK range, she can purposely FA and start a mindgame. Even moreso if Ibuki knows how to kara FA. Like Izuna said in the Ibuki vs Sakura matchup (first page of Ibuki matchup thread), FA xx backdash is an excellent way to bait cr.MK with buffered Shouo, since Ibuki’s backdash is so far. Once Sakura is relunctant to push buttons, this paves the way for dash gimmicks and other tricks, like walk up overhead.

Fun fact: Ibuki’s U2 can punish Sakura’s dp xx FADC backdash on block. And Ibuki’s U1 can punish Sakura’s dp xx FADC forward dash on block. Dash correctly or delay that dash cancel to mess with Ibuki’s reactions.

Sakura has the faster walkspeed too, so that’s also something to consider.

In terms of okizeme, Ibuki’s is easier, imo. Maybe it’s because I main Ibuki instead of Sakura, but I feel like I’m able to keep my opponent in the vortex as Ibuki better than I can continuously knock my opponent down as Sakura.

In order for Izuna to approve:
If both players’ execution sucks, Ibuki has higher dmg output. If Sakura can tatsu loop consistently, Sakura has higher dmg output. If Ibuki can tsumuji loop consistently, dmg output is about even, depending on how much meter Sakura wants to burn on FADC combos.

Fun fact: st.HP xx lk.Tatsu , cr.HP xx EX tatsu , U1 does the exact same damage as without the tatsu loop (ie: st.HP xx EX tatsu , U1). The tatsu loop is still useful though, cuz you get the extra stun + meter, but if you know it’ll end the round then it probably won’t matter.

Coincidentally, both Ibuki and Sakura have the same go-to frame trap: cl.st.MP, which they can both hitconfirm into knockdown, counterhit or not.

Ibuki has a very useful overhead, whereas Sakura’s isn’t so much. Sakura’s overhead is fast, and does good damage, but -3 on block is a risk, and especially if Ibuki has U1 stocked and has good reactions and/or is looking for it.

Imo, it’s easier for Ibuki to backdash out of pressure than it is for Sakura to backdash out of pressure. Thanks to Ibuki’s far, airborne backdash, Sakura cannot consistently option select this normally. She has to use option select Shouo, which requires some decent execution/timing. Or otherwise be on point with Sakura’s blockstrings and other traps, also making use of her good walkspeed. Sakura’s backdash on the other hand, is easy to option select (eg: cr.LP , cr.LP + cr.HK) and doesn’t go very far, meaning you’ll most likely eat the frame trap into reset and then back into pressure.

Small facts: when Ibuki goes for launcher resets, specifically TC6 xx SJC hk.cd and cl.st.HK xx SJC cd , cr.HP xx SJC mk.cd
(I’m fairly sure) she can choose which side to end up on depending on if she delayed the last SJC cd or not.

Small fact: Sakura can do the reset/dash under glitch with EX tatsu , j.HK , forward dash. What happens is that Sakura’s opponent loses the ability to push buttons. Ibukis: be wary of mashing EX dp! There’s more to it than that, but more info can be found here: Patch these for SSF4 AE!

Speaking of reversals, don’t even bother using them unless you have meter to FADC. Taking the throw/frametrap is considerably better.

For example, Ibuki’s EX dp does about 160dmg. For comparison, if it’s blocked, Sakura can dash up (under any possible kunai, thanks to the lowered hitbox when she dashes) and then punish with whatever, preferably some heavy tatsu combo. I played around with random punish combos, and your best bet is the trusty st.HP xx lk.Tatsu , cr.HP xx whatever for like 300+ (more than twice the damage of Ibuki’s dp). If you have meter, go for the EX tatsu because you’ll get all the hits. Also noteworthy is clstMK clstMK crHP stLK tatsu loop for good damage without meter. I couldn’t figure out a way to get a meaty tatsu, so sorry no cr.MK xx Shouo ender. If you have super, you can go st.HP xx HP Shouo xx Super for like 480dmg; 499dmg if you go for tatsu loop first. Or if you got the execution, go for tatsu loop FADC combos. Really hard but with one FADC you can almost already get super damage. If you tack on U1 you can get like 500+ dmg. Anyways, if you play Sakura you already know how to punish hard.

Sakura’s EX dp is 180dmg. Basic tsumuji loop is like 340dmg. If Sakura is in the corner, tsumuji loop into EX tsumuji juggle is like 410dmg. Tsumuji loop into U2 is like 460dmg. cr.HP xx MP kunai (midscreen or corner) into tsumuji loop is like 372dmg (a bit more work than Sakura but meterless and beast metergain and stun). Sakura’s tatsu loop only do like 500-550 stun. Ibuki’s cr.HP into tsumuji loop does like 600stun. cr.HP xx SJC U2 is 476dmg.

You got the idea. You can get punished for 2-3 times the damage of your reversal. It’s not a good idea to use it at all unless you are 100% sure it will hit.

I think Sakura’s combos are harder to do. Maybe it’s just because I main Ibuki and thus have more practice with her, but dropping a tatsu loop with Sakura usually means death if you cancel into Shouo. And it still means death if you cancel into EX tatsu which often whiffs on crouching Ibuki. Too bad AE 2012 will buff that for you. Meanwhile a dropped combo with Ibuki like tsumuji loop just means loss of momentum, not a free combo.

Also, as Sakura, don’t bother ever using her fireball. It’s worthless, and it’ll only get you ultraed, EX neckbreakered, hit with slide into combo, etc.

Did I miss anything?

P.S. we should probably continue this discussion in the matchup thread, not the discussion thread.

[MingoDynasty]

Best other I’ve faught is xWAx Quest lol. 15-0’d him last time and after being removed from the lobby for the 4th time that’s why I quit that stupid team.

About damn time you stopped hanging with those scrubs. Didn’t littlesushi make him ragekick too?

Certainly not, no.

Then what do you think Ibuki vs Chun is? 4-6?

He’d probably 7-3/8-2 every character in the game haha. Unless you’re talking about the Evil Ryu sort of dive-kick, I think you’re joking here…

Yes it was a joke, but there was also a point to it. My point was that just because Rufus can reset himself out of these (supposed) unblockable setups with snake strike and that has a dive kick does not make the match 4-6.

Rufus’s dive kick is first and foremost an offensive tool to be used when he’s close with a frame advantage. He can try to dive kick his way in midrange, but it won’t work that easily against solid players.

Ryu has a solid okizeme and pressure game as well, with most of his untechable knockdowns being a safe jump setup and having excellent option selects to keep you blocking. Yet this is still a bad match for Ryu.

So can I as I’ve found out at last week’s WSO. I can even consistently do EX Kazegiri into st.HK, cr.HP, ect. Hell, I probably have better execution than Iyo offline. However, I didn’t make it out groups because Ryan Hart capitalised on my poor decision making with Hakan.

You picked Hakan or you mean Ryan picked Hakan?

I think the difference in our way of thinking for match-ups is that I don’t see this stuff from the point of view of damage numbers. I don’t think there are many matches where it matters if Ibuki does a Tsumuji Loop or not.

Are there many matches where it matters if Sakura does a tatsu loop or not?

But this is how tier-lists are produced. Makoto would be higher on the tier-list if her combos were easily hit-confirmed whilst doing the same damage. C.Viper isn’t considered an A-tier character because of how hard is for one player to do so much. Latif beat Umehara at Evo 2k11, but if Umehara had his execution on point, he would have won as the chart expects. That day, Latif was the better player, he had better execution as Umehara couldn’t land st.Jab, st.Strong.

???
CViper is pretty much top 5 on every tier list, including Daigo’s, Tokido’s and the two tier lists by Arcadia. Only Mago lists her as #6, behind Boxer/Chun. Probably because Fei doesn’t rape them as hard as the rest of the cast.

When I theory-fight (lol) I always assume the player has the execution to do what is required or generally accepted by that character. For Makoto, this might be kara karakusa or her 1f links or EX Hayate , Fukiage juggle in the corner. For CViper this might be tons of SJCs and top notch Seismo feint execution.

This way, you can’t just say something like Dsim vs CViper is a 5-5 matchup, just because you assume the CViper player’s execution is only as good as Dsim player’s execution, which is just push buttons and hardest combo is like st.MK xx Yoga Flame.

Not everything about SSFIVAE is well known. Yang has unblockables all over the place, and Claw has a gdlk Vortex.

What does that have anything to do with anything about not being able to antiair Claw consistently? So I guess he does have a dive kick I don’t know about?

Try to play this Dr Claw guy.

Ok.

Unlike with Balrog (lol)… ahem, Boxer, you can’t walk underneath his BS anti-air to hit an Ageman. I thought Claw was crazy hard to anti-air with anything but cr.HP or EX Kazegiri, and I’ve searched for Sakonoko matches. He chooses to use EX Kazegiri as an anti-air to, so as NVNiko was telling me Claw is not really possible to consistently anti-air.

Exactly why is Claw hard to antiair? And what antiair are you talking about with Boxer that you can somehow walk underneath it??

I’d probably use EX kazegiri too if that’s what it takes to punish a jumpin. At least you have something.

–
Focus dash into throw from what I’ve seen is where the whole meta-game builds in. Without Ibuki doing this, she has no way to get in, so if she loses a life-lead she goes to build meter and force Claw to come into her.

Well, if Claw picks up the life-lead, he doesn’t really need to rush Ibuki down at all. He’s way more likely to start a lead than Ibuki is, but of course I think this match-up is 5-5 so I’m considering that it takes some serious skill to pull that off, haha.

I’m sure you can random your way in somehow. I think you’re overestimating Claw’s defensively capabilities. As well as his offensive capabilities, as it seems his only way of getting in is this un-antiairable dive kick of some sort, and some sort of wall dive vortex which is somehow better than Ibuki’s.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

… sorry I had more to say but I’ve run out of time. Oh I punished the roll with U1. Of course the cr.HK wasn’t on hit… Is it cr.HK that they cancel from? Oh I don’t know.

Looks risky. What if he cancelled into Wheel Kick?

[MingoDynasty]

Damn, so much pages of discussion just because some noob made a crappy tier list for Ibuki.

[Izuna]

This way, you can’t just say something like Dsim vs CViper is a 5-5 matchup, just because you assume the CViper player’s execution is only as good as Dsim player’s execution, which is just push buttons and hardest combo is like st.MK xx Yoga Flame.

Ah here we go!

In this match-up, Dhalsim’s options is the limiting factor. I’ll try to make sense. Let’s imagine that execution requires units of like… e-Skill (lol). C.Viper needs to do SJCs, Meterless, ect. in order to reach her highest potential in this match-up. However, even if the Dhalsim player could do that, it doesn’t matter. Dhalsim doesn’t have the ability to utilise that sort of execution.

So basically, take a top-tier C.Viper (Kindev for example), and give his execution to a top-tier Dhalsim (YHC Mochi), and it doesn’t matter, the match-up will be the same. Now if you do the same thing but vice-versa, there’s no way C.Viper can win here.

Tier-list assume one player has mastered everything we know about one character against another. Ibuki can do an Unblockable on Ryu, but Ryu can just reset himself -> Ibuki can just bait the SRK, but Ryu can just punish her High Jump recovery. In practice Ibuki isn’t going to always correctly land the Unblockable, but even if she does, we have to assume the Ryu players knows everything about it too.

Side note:- [details=Spoiler]at WSO the Ryu/Ken player I beat didn’t want to talk to me after the match (refused to shake my hand) because I seriously did spend all of my meter in a series of Unblockables. haha… which reminds me, I need to practice vs. Rose so I might make Top 16 next week.[/details]

In match-ups like Ibuki vs. Chun-Li or Ibui vs. Claw it really feels like Ibuki wins of of her opponent’s mistakes or lack of match-up experience. Now I may be wrong, these are just my not-too-experienced opinions, but I think that in 10-years time of SFIV Ibuki will be low C-tier as I expect.

–

Okay so after reading your Ibuki vs. Sakura post I’m more agreeing now. Sounds like Ibuki might have a slight advantage… Although I’m telling you, st.MP works well against her.

P.S. holy hell I’d rather play KoF2002 than play theory-fighter, and I dislike that game with great intensity.

[Izuna]

Damn, so much pages of discussion just because some noob made a crappy tier list for Ibuki.

I would have gotten killed, but after that, it was a heck of a lot easier fighting the scared Abel.

[MingoDynasty]

Uh, why would you super jump to do the unblockable on Ryu? It’s considerably more telegraphed, and every good Ibuki and CViper know you always always cancel your SJ into something and never do empty SJ else you eat 11 recovery frames.

Yes. Let’s assume I play a Ryu that knows he can reset himself out of vortex and the unblockables. Does the matchup suddenly get better for him? No, not really. Same goes for Rufus. It’s hardly worth mentioning that he can reset himself with Snake Strike. It’s still easy to bait, you can punish it hard, or you can reaction juggle.

If you want to do hardcore footsies, then sure maybe Ibuki’s st.MP can beat Sakura’s st.HK. I probably should have mentioned that. But it is certainly is a big risk, a trade won’t be in your favor.

[littlesushi]

Theory Fighter is cool.

[Niko9193]

If we assume:
Big advantage = better than 6-4
Noticeable Advantage = 6-4
Slight advantage = 5.5 - 4.5
50 - 50 = 5-5
Slight disadvantage =** 4.5 - 5.5**
Noticeable disadvantage =** 4-6**
Big disadvantage = worse than 4-6

Then his tier list looks like this:

Dhalsim: better than 6-4
Ken: 6-4
Chun: 6-4
Cody: 6-4
Dan: 6-4
Gen: 6-4
Gouken: 6-4
Hakan: 6-4
Juri: 6-4
Rose: 6-4
El Fuerte: 6-4
Blanka: 6-4
Claw: 6-4
E.Ryu: 6-4
Oni: 6-4
Adon: 5.5 - 4.5
Guy: 5.5 - 4.5
Ryu: 5.5 - 4.5
Sakura: 5.5 - 4.5
Abel: 5.5 - 4.5
Dudley: 5.5 - 4.5
T.Hawk: 5.5 - 4.5
Sagat: 5.5 - 4.5
Guile: 5.5 - 4.5
Makoto: 5.5 - 4.5
C.Viper: 5-5
DeeJay: 5-5
Zangief: 4.5 - 5.5
Akuma: 4.5 - 5.5
Seth: 4.5 - 5.5
Fei Long: 4.5 - 5.5
E.Honda: 4.5 - 5.5
Boxer: 4.5 - 5.5
Bipson (Dictator): 4-6
Rufus: 4-6
Cammy: worse than 4-6
Yang: worse than 4-6
Yun: worse than 4-6

Well here’s my analysis based on Mingo’s numbers. Keep in mind this is based off of people who actually know the match up and not online play; k, thanks:

Dhalsim: better than 6-4
—6.5-3.5 I agree, we have an easy time closing the distance on him

Ken: 6-4
—5-5 Both characters are great at creating pressure. Definetely not one of Ibuki’s worst match ups Izuna, I have no idea what your basing this off of?
Chun: 6-4
—5-5 St. mp is good, but not that fucking good. She’s good at keeping you out but Ibuki is good at keeping the pressure on once she’s in.
Cody: 6-4
—7-3 IMO. No reversal. His pressure game is not that good, and Ibuki just flat out beats him in footsies
Dan: 6-4
— I never played this match up seriously, so I can’t comment
Gen: 6-4
— I would say 5-5. Gen is far better then people think he is imo
Gouken: 6-4
— I agree
Hakan: 6-4
— I agree
Juri: 6-4
— 5-5 Juri’s defense is pretty hard to crack at times
Rose: 6-4
— I agree
El Fuerte: 6-4
—3-7 in El Fuerte’s favor. Unblockable that leads to RSF, Ultra 1 kills vortex, Armor cancel Ultra 2 kills safe jumps, cross ups, and any type of pressure. And Ibuki doesn’t seem to have the best tools to deal with El Fuerte at this time
Blanka: 6-4
— I agree
Claw: 6-4
— 4.5-5.5 (or even 4-6) Claw gets to jump in on Ibuki all all day (with the claw), which means he can create pressure just about when ever he feels like it or he could just lame you out with the best pokes in the game (again, whenever he feels like it). Ibuki on the other hand doesn’t really have a safe approach to Vega and she is basically always taking a risk. Now I’m not talking about Vega players like Wa Quest, I’m talking about Vega Players that know how to counter everything defensively. Oh and by the way, you can’t punish Vega when he FADC’s the kunai vortex. Unblockables don’t win the "Match up"
E.Ryu: 6-4
---- I agree
Oni: 6-4
— I agree
Adon: 5.5 - 4.5
— I agree
Guy: 5.5 - 4.5
— 7-3 IMO
Ryu: 5.5 - 4.5
—7-3 Ibuki shuts down too much of Ryu’s game imo. It’s very hard for Ryu to fight Ibuki
Sakura: 5.5 - 4.5
— I agree
Abel: 5.5 - 4.5
— I agree
Dudley: 5.5 - 4.5
—7-3 Dudley is another Cody in imo
T.Hawk: 5.5 - 4.5
3-7 Ibuki can’t compete with T. Hawk’s footsies imo
Sagat: 5.5 - 4.5
— I agree
Guile: 5.5 - 4.5
— I agree
Makoto: 5.5 - 4.5
—LMAO, this is easily 3-7
C.Viper: 5-5
—6-4 Ibuki has alot of tools to deal with Viper
DeeJay: 5-5
— I agree
Zangief: 4.5 - 5.5
— I agree
Akuma: 4.5 - 5.5
— 5-5 This match up is dead even
Seth: 4.5 - 5.5
— 5-5
Fei Long: 4.5 - 5.5
— 6-4 I never had a real problem with Feo Long but it might just be me shrugs
E.Honda: 4.5 - 5.5
—5-5
Boxer: 4.5 - 5.5
—5-5
Bipson (Dictator): 4-6
— I agree
Rufus: 4-6
— I agree
Cammy: worse than 4-6
— I agree. Cammy is probably the most under estimated character in the game and the more I use her, the more I understand why she’s considered A tier
Yang: worse than 4-6
— I agree
Yun: worse than 4-6
— I agree

[Izuna]

Okay hang on a second. This is all opinion but there’s no way in hell Ibuki beats Cody 7-3. I’ve played some terribly good Cody players and this doesn’t seem right at all. Another thing is T.Hawk. Considering the Hawk players I’ve beaten too, it makes me think you don’t utilise st.LK in this match-up. I’d almost say 7-3 Ibuki haha.

You should teach me the Rose match-up so I can make Top 16 next week.

You guys agree that Ibuki wins vs. Ken/Blanka which is fair enough. If only it was possible to film those Iyo matches…

–

I love that people still think Ibuki beats Makoto in AE. Seriously if I didn’t have bad habits from 3S I’d show them all. Who was it that I did the Makoto U2 unblockable on? “5-5” he said before, “9-1” he said after.

[Niko9193]

In the Rose mu I use f-lk and her over head to counter poke slide and I st. mk her cr. strong. Other than that I OS Ultra alot.

As long as your confident in your footsies and reactions, I don’t see any issue at all with Cody

[littlesushi]

Who cares about Iyo anymore?

[Izuna]

I like watching the matches where he loses.

When Sakonoko loses, it’s 'cause he dropped something gasp or got 50/50’d. When Iyo loses, there’s something to learn there.

[Damascus]

Niko, can you explain why you thing Ibuki is that much above Guy?

Another thing about T.Hawk: I don’t personnally find this match up that difficult. Once you get the life lead, what you have to do is wait for him. He doesn’t have that much efficient approach tools, you can easily punish his Condor Dive bad decisions, so as soon as you can expect his 360s I don’t see what is that hard against him. I have a lot of trouble against Gief (mostly because of his Lariat) but never had that much trouble against T.Hawk. Since you’re way more experienced than me, I’d like to know what I forgot there? thx

[Fergus2k8]

Ibuki/Sak info

Wow that’s more than I expected, thanks Mingo.

[MingoDynasty]

@Niko:
Cody: Juicebox.

Elf: what unblockable is this? U1 doesn’t kill vortex; you can make it whiff by noncrossup kunai and landing on the other side. After that punish with jumping fierce into whatever. What is armor cancel U2? I think you need to share your knowledge against Elf because apparently you know more than us, and me.

T.Hawk: best Hawk player I played was Craig Stevens (best Hawk on east coast imo) and I don’t think the matchup is really that bad. Hawk has some good normals but they’re not gdlk. Maybe 4-6 at worst, but 3-7 basically means THawk can do whatever the hell he wants and still win.

Makoto: I don’t think it’s 3-7. Maybe 4-6 at worst, but the match can swing in each player’s favor so quickly, and both characters have the damage/stun output that they can kill each other within like 10 seconds, that I don’t think there would even be a difference even if you said it was 6-4.

CViper: what tools?

I think this is a clear case of you being obviously biased in a couple of your numbers because you play Codys and CVipers all day, etc.

[Izuna]

Wait until you see the Sakonoko vs. Haitani concept matches haha. A good Makoto takes the piss. Even though I’ve only played one myself, and the result was 8-7 to me, it’s because it’s hard to find a Makoto player that knows the match-up.

[Niko9193]

@Niko:
Cody: Juicebox.

That does not mean the mu is not in Ibuki’s favor. I lose a lot to Sanford’s Sagat. Does that mean the mu is in Sagat’s favor? No. I base mu’s on a couple of things like what options a character has against the other character, damage output, health, amount of opportunities for pressure, a characters defensive options, and etc.

Elf: what unblockable is this? U1 doesn’t kill vortex; you can make it whiff by noncrossup kunai and landing on the other side. After that punish with jumping fierce into whatever. What is armor cancel U2? I think you need to share your knowledge against Elf because apparently you know more than us, and me.

[media=youtube]7xL3E5_JO8Q[/media]
Plus he has his unblockable jumping fierce set up
[media=youtube]RaXhO185cgU[/media]

-So ultra 1, we get no Kunai vortex. (I’ll have to test if what you say is true even though I doubt it)
-Ultra 2, we get no safe jumps or cross ups.
-2 good unblockables
-Good pressure that Ibuki doesn’t really have an answer for
http://www.youtube.com/user/SPABmanRoG#p/u/37/B8oRf8IVpL0

[quote="MingoDynasty, post: 6086319"
T.Hawk: best Hawk player I played was Craig Stevens (best Hawk on east coast imo) and I don’t think the matchup is really that bad. Hawk has some good normals but they’re not gdlk. Maybe 4-6 at worst, but 3-7 basically means THawk can do whatever the hell he wants and still win.[/quote]

OK, I might of exaggerated. But let me say I rather fight Bison then a solid T. Hawk any day of the week

Makoto: I don’t think it’s 3-7. Maybe 4-6 at worst, but the match can swing in each player’s favor so quickly, and both characters have the damage/stun output that they can kill each other within like 10 seconds, that I don’t think there would even be a difference even if you said it was 6-4.

She has better normals, mixups, and damage then Ibuki. Plus is you block a crossup mk, she gets a free ultra 2 unblockable and the only way out of it (that I know of) is to burn 1 bar for a ex kazagiri which will trade with the Ultra. Izuna how did you feel about the mu the last time you fought my Mak? (even though I just troll with her and go nuts8-))

CViper: what tools?

Really??
-Cr. mk - It beats almost everything viper has (except for her f-hk, which Viper players barely use). Beats burn kick mix ups which you can usually punish with st. mk or you can raida if you think the Viper player is going to mash grab after whiffing a burn kick
-Cl. hk - can be used to mix up on Viper’s wake up and beat her reversals (just like Ryu’s Cl. hk)
-“Dumb fact” - If Viper knocks you down and you know she’s going to go for an instant burn kick mixup, you can actually beat it if you wake up with st. hk, lol

I think this is a clear case of you being obviously biased in a couple of your numbers because you play Codys and CVipers all day, etc.

You might be right, I have way too much Viper xp

[Izuna]

Well NVNiko, we only played Makoto mirrors haha. A lot of people consider Makoto to be easy to out-zone, and free on wake-up. It’s simply not the case, it just takes a lot of work for Makoto to utilise her options. I think it’s like as if C.Viper players didn’t have good execution, she wouldn’t be considered a good character.

[Niko9193]

Oh I could have swore we also did Mak vs Ibuki that one night

[MingoDynasty]

I never safe jump Elf. There’s no reason to. He generally can’t deal with vortex; he has options (EX guac and EX run) but they cost meter and it’s still 50/50.

Even still, I don’t know why this so called EX armor cancel U2 is even a threat. The video is just Ryu jumping in and mashing mp.dp. What if you simply wait a couple frames between landing and mashing that dp? You got tons of hit/blockstun off a j.HP anyways.
-why is even mashing dp in the first place; shouldn’t you go for a combo or blockstring or something?

Can Elf really RSF off his overhead unblockable? I was under the impression that he could only link like a jab into whatever.

Good pressure lol. Run stop pressure is good but it’s not lockdown mode at all.