I guess we’ll see how the walkspeed buff works, I felt it’s not THAT important as she has ways in with f+mk but it’s nice to have if you plan to whiff punish with cr.mk or cr.mp or w/e.
F+lk is a nice buff for an easier way to force stand people if you’re not comfortable with st.lp cr.hp link.
Lance meter buff is pretty nice, more meter for Lili to use, same with divekick and counter and feisty rabbit followups (Capcom encouraging us to use this more in mixups?), and deo meter buff is pretty good since it’s really nice to end blockstrings with, we can’t cadc it anymore for meter but this is a universal nerf so w/e.
df+hk AA is gonna hurt a lot, it still can be used I guess for jumpins that are on top of you, but the buff/nerf to Ex knee will make us use this as an AA more since it looks like we have more combo potential with it.
Cross rush damage nerf is a bummer, this was one of the things that made Lili unique to me but I guess it was coming.
Thankfully she recieved no damage nerfs on divekick, deo, f+mk st.hp or normal angel knee or lance and we should be very grateful they left f+mk st.mp alone, that is one of the best normals in the game to me.
We gotta keep in mind about the roll changes, Lili’s gonna be really dirty in 2013 with her oki.
I don’t really know what to think about her, she seems slightly nerfed to me overall especially cross rush and df+hk nerf but we’ll see I guess.
I was going to say that it’s probably still better to put her on point because she does so much better with the meter, but Iono’, that walkspeed does change things a bit. Soooo I guess I have the same question, lol.
yeah and another thing i was thinking. Another reason putting juri on point is because didn’t lili’s launcher receive a 50 point damage nerf.
juri’s jc combo will do 40 less thanks to the damage nerf on crouch fp and jump fp
add it up that’s a whopping 90 damage less so if lili launched it might not even break 300 damage, but if juri gets an easy confirm with a fireball store, it’s a hell lot more damage.
Ah that’s a good point, forgot Lili’s launcher is getting hit in this patch. It’s probably easier to combo into Lili than the other way around anyhow without going into boost. Juri on point to build meter, confirm into any one of her BnBs into Lili to handle the rest.
And I am pretty bad at theory fighting, I need visual confirmationnnnnnnn :razzy:
neat. you can special cancel the jump cancel from angel knee ascension. although i haven’t found a worthwhile use for that so far; maybe if you do angel knee ascension on block and cancel into den for chip or hold the den to try for a counter hit-- doing a divekick mixup is probably more useful.
anyway doing angel knee -> ascension > jc roundhouse > cr fierce xx mk sunflower lance seems to do the most damage midscreen
edit: you can jump cancel into pandora from angel knee ascension by doing a 720 motion.
So i’m thinking about playing Kazuya/Lili… I’m not really sure what type of character lili is but apparently she’s a high/low machine, right? I previously played Sagat/Kazuya, but I’m probably going to switch Kaz to point and have lili behind. Like i said i don’t know much about her yet but how is her neutral game? I feel like her normals are a little eeh. Pretty good c.mk, but not really rewarding aside from chaining, and with chained attacks being nerfed on block I’m not too sure how that changed her.
Andante nerf really hurts. Didn’t feel her anti air was overpowered or anything. It always wiffed on really deep jump ins for me personally anyway.
Is anyone else having trouble canceling her f.LK into Angel Knee? I can cancel every into other special just fine except for that one. Is there a certain trick I’m just missing or is it not even possible to cancel into Angel Knee?
EDIT: Okay, it IS possible to cancel into Angel Knee from Dominating Heel. I was just being silly.
Still, it’s hard for me to get the motion down. Any tips?
What is the importance of dominating heel? How do you apply that into your game? 1st hit seems so negative on block… I don’t understand :\
Overall I’m having a hard time understanding how to play this character. I feel unsafe, and unable to continue pressure after certain things, and feel hopeless in the neutral game. Uggh ;__;
^ I had this problem when I first started playing her pre-patch. It was made worse in the fact that Akuma didn’t really pull his weight too much because of his glass cannon status. That said, it takes some time to get used to the way she moves around.
Her key pokes in neutral (or at least i’m assuming like as in neutral you mean kind of like footising your opponent or something like that) are:
cr.:mp: decent whiff punisher against longer ranged pokes.
cr.:mk: shoto-like cr.:mk: 5 frames makes pretty fast to start-up
Your Light Attacks: Just for baiting the opponent to come forwards just something to bait and induce a whiff.
:f: + :mk: Your main whiff punisher. This poke has great range on it and on hit you can get a full combo by doing the follow-up by pressing :mp: afterwards. From there you can go into your light attacks or your medium attacks into an Angel Knee ( :dp: + :k: ) for a juggle.
Dominating Heel ( :f: + :lk: > :lk: ) is useful two situations:
Applying pressure
Although the move is negative on block, it is only truly punishable by certain characters’ Super Arts in the game i.e. Ken, Zangief, Ibuki and Akuma.
The Dominating Heel can act as a little bit of a frame trap should you do it with your st.:lp:. Depends on the character you are fighting but if someone with slow light attacks tries to hit in between the frame trap, they’ll get counter hitted by the ‘knee’ portion.
As the string combos naturally on counter hit (i.e. both two hits connect properly/opponent can’t block the second hit) it’s good for opening up your opponent further for applying some more pressure.
Some stuff you can do off a successful counter hit Dominating Heel are:
[LIST]
[]Raw Launcher
[]:f: + :mk: > :mp: into whatever you want.
[/LIST]
Hit confirming
As of V.2013 the first hit of Dominating heel forces stand to opponents on hit.
This is useful as you can link st. or cr.:lp: into Dominating heel.
Lili’s strongest juggles come from hitting standing opponents and forcing stand against crouching opponents was something she had trouble with pre-patch now you can do it no problem in this version.
Good hit confirm strings are something like
[LIST]
[]st.:lp: > st.:lp: > Dominating Heel (1st Hit)
[]cr.:lk: > st.:lp: > Dominating Heel (1st Hit)
[/LIST]
Lili is a pressure based, frame-trap character who works perfectly with momentum based players.
The goal with playing her successfully is to put the fear of god into your opponent by punishing their mistakes HARD. Despite her small appearance, she does a lot of damage off of single hit confirms.
Once you feel that your opponent is a little scared of your pressure, you can start going HAM at them with :f: + :hk: overhead which also leads into a full combo on hit. From there its just pure mind-games.
Great post. Quick question: does Lili’s s.LP hit crouching characters? I can link her Dominating Heel easily with s.LP but c.LP was giving me problems.
Thanks a bunch man, much appreciated. In regards to Dominating heel I was just confused as to why use this now when she’s had C.hp the whole time… But I just noticed I can do things like C.lk, c.mp, dominating heel, so I guess that’s the use. What is the optimal combo meterless and with meter? Should I just be doing whatever xx knee, knee, c.hp xx LK sunflower?
Also, what’s up with her divekick? Is it useful at all? I noticed you can TK the ex version pretty low, so I’m assuming we can use it like cammy ex strike in ae? It’s got plenty of time to hit confirm c.hp so idk, I’ll mess with it.
And with frame traps, you mentioned using the knee portion as the frame trap but it being negative just bothers me, hah. S.mp seems like it might be good as well, and more towards my liking. S.mp CH, into dominating heel xx combo.
:lk: Angel Knee ( :dp: + :lk: ) x2 > cr.:hp: > :lk: Sunflower Lance ( :qcf: + :lk: ) which does less damage.
Both of the above combos end in hard knockdowns.
HOWEVER
The knockdown gained from Sunflower Lance should all of the hits connect provides better wake-up pressure (or oki as some people call it) as you are left closer to your opponent than with the first combo.
This allows you to do a :lk: Feisty Rabbit (no follow-up needed) over the opponent. This allows you to effectively prevent rolls. Leaving your opponent with one option: stand up normally.
Ok so the opponent can still roll from the knockdown but they’ll roll in front of you which you can chase down and get a free throw to put them back in the same situation again.
EDIT:
Divekick
Lili’s dive-kick is pretty good in offense. It tends to be used on your opponent’s wake-up but it can be used as approach past projectiles or stuff like avoiding anti-air attempts using normals.
The :lk: Version travels at the steepest angle but its arguably the worst of all of the versions. Its negative on block and even on hit. For now unless someone comes up with some next tech regarding its usefulness, I’d suggest to you to avoid using this version.
The :mk: Version travels at a less steeper angle but it does give a combo on hit if you hit them in the waist or lower. It’s -2 on block if you aim for their head I believe.
The :hk: Version travels at the least steep angle but this is the ‘reversal killer’ that’s what most of us Vanilla Lili players would call this move.
(Reversal Killer? There must be a better, more catchier phrase for this one!)
That set-up I was talking about after the sunflower lance knockdown and the :lk: feisty rabbit over them?
Do a :hk: Divekick over them and it will make those pesky SRK type moves to whiff if done as a reversal.
The EX one is arguably the best version. It’s a move I’d personally keep under wraps. Its good for blowing up crouch teching. Wouldn’t use it too much though, something to use randomly whilst pressuring someone.
I know random isn’t the correct word but its one of those moves which are really good but don’t over-use it kind of moves.
And also tell me about being negative. It’s probably the reason why whenever I play Tekken sometimes I avoid doing moves which are jab punishable on block at least.
Eating punches to the face for a move I could have made safe = not my thing
