Let's talk about money - The Finance Thread

Hey guys, haven’t been in this thread a while, but I wanted some advice on actually building up money when you don’t make much. As my new job pays me minimum wage as part of a federal student work study, and I take too many classes to get a better paying job right now, I have a western union prepaid debit I use for purchases, but I’m thinking about opening up a seperate savings account to start putting money aside, since with as little money as I make(7.25), I usually end up burning checks as soon as I get em. =/

Any advice on actually getting finances together when starting from rock bottom would be appreciated(will also be going through the thread again for info)

Bewd: You are definitely in the right path; go make that bank account then start putting away $$$ slowly but consistently. Find your comfort saving level and cut down on spending on stuff you do not really need. Its never too late to start saving. Once it becomes a habit, you will be amaze at the end of the year on how much you actually save.
My parents gave me 250 bucks when I was around 12 and I opened a savings account with that and vowed to not touch it all through out high school years. I was doing random summer jobs and made it a priority to save some $(i.e. earned 150 bucks, put away 25-50 bucks) every paycheck. It did bother me first time around because I could have used that extra $ on food,games etc but after awhile it became 2nd nature. Did the same thing in college while on work-study. Now I’m much older now(going 29) but with enough $$$ saved to afford a 1 bedroom coop:lovin:. I’m saving about $1k a month now in preparation for my own place(once i find it:sweat:).

Reading this makes me so happy I do not have any of these complications yet, I filed my taxes today and it took 5 min.

A simple rule I have discovered in life…It is always easiest now.

Thanks a lot for the post Larva, :tup: I feel more enthusiastic about it now,I’m gonna take $300 and open up a savings with Bank of America, it’ll be a new feeling, actually having money :rofl:

I gotta start my own savings account now. I’m getting owned by a lot of bills and fees lately. The credit card bill in particular is what I want to get rid of quickly. I was thinking about putting $60 in the account per paycheck.

Yup. Get yourself a monthly budget put together, then figure out an amount that you can put into that savings every time you get paid. Always get that money out of your hands before you have a chance to spend it.

Then just start putting that money into whatever’s going to get you the best return on it. Win. With interest rates on the rise, a quick and easy investment is going to www.treasurydirect.gov and buying series I savings bonds. $25 a piece, and as inflation rises, so will your interest payments. Plus, you’ll keep your hands out of the cookie jar for at least a year after buying one.

Some interesting ideas here for some stable fixed income investments. I liked IBM’s preferred, there’s very little price volatility and a 7% yield on her:

http://www.nurseb911.com/2009/05/fixed-income-alternatives-update-i.html

The author is a little concerned about how quickly you could sell these if you needed to. I noticed there’s a small gap inbetween the ask and bid prices, so if you had to sell right away you might lose a little on the spread.

Also, I started reading “A Random Walk down Wall Street”. I have some things to say, but I’m going to wait until I finish it.

Gonna bump this up with a question. I have about 20k in debt for various reasons. I make about 1k a month. My credit score was a grade level D. I make payments on time but I’m not able to really make a sizable dent on my debt.

Given my low credit score, should I consider debt consolidation? I was staying away from it because I didn’t want it to affect my credit, but if its low to begin with …

Everyone’s situation is unique, but it won’t cost you anything to get a consultation. Get an hour of free time available and call my old employer: http://www.moneymanagement.org/

You might find the budgeting session they do to be more useful than the credit counseling. When I used to look at credit card plans we found many times that the payments were even higher than what the customer was already paying. They may even recommend bankruptcy.

The other plan is to just eat that elephant one bite at a time. Start with whichever card has the lowest balance, and pay more than your minimum. Pay that sucker down aggressively, then once it’s gone, roll the money you were paying onto the next card you have.

Alright, I’ve gone through the text, and I want to give my opinion on the information contained in “A Random Walk Down Wall Street”. There are some things that the author, Burton G. Malkiel does very right, one of those being that he draws a distinction between speculating on stocks and investing. To me, that is the most important thing to understand about stocks. That they represent value, not just numbers on a paper somewhere.

To give you some background, the book is discussing something called the Efficient Portfolio Theory, which sort of extends the microeconomic idea that markets are self regulating and efficiently priced. Sometimes prices rise very high above intrinsic values, and sometimes they’re depressed far below, but over time the market tends to correct those prices, so the author tries to convince you that beating the market is hard, and it’s a better idea to invest in index funds rather than individual stocks. Warren Buffett is the absolute antithesis of the Efficient Portfolio theory, and he has been critical of it on numerous occasions.

An odd thing about this book, is that in the opening chapter Malkiel describes why the market is efficient, then spends about 100 pages talking about why the investors participating in it are irrational. It was long-winded and redundant. At the very end of this argument, he states Benjamin Graham’s famous line from “The Intelligent Investor” that the market is a voting machine in the short term, but a weighing machine in the long term. In that statement alone he’s pretty much saying that the market misprices stocks. Graham had it figured out nearly 40 years earlier though.

I think the author has put together a quality writing overall, he talks about many of the problems that exist in the brokerage world, and why Wall Street is more interested in collecting your trade fees than increasing your returns. The arguments being made about analyst’s faults apply more to why professional money managers have a harder time beating the market than the individual. What he fails to emphasize, is that the major reason the “professionals” fail is that they are too focused on the short term. I did appreciate that he talked about how technical analysis works and it’s faults. He briefly touches on the techniques of value investing, but then makes the mistake of applying those techniques to completely random stocks, which is not what the process is about.

In closing, I will say that Graham’s idea of buying from a business perspective, paying a price low enough to create a margin of safety, and then hedging in bonds to protect yourself further from the insanity of bull markets is much more effective. Graham knew that the markets behaved in odd ways, that investors were occasionally irrational, and he expected it to continue that way into the future. The idea being that the prepared investor can take advantage of a market that’s not efficiently priced. Three decades after his death, we can see that he is still right about these things. Real value investing is definitely more work than just buying a passive index, but the rewards are greater. If you haven’t read random walk, read Benjamin Graham first.

^ It seems you know your stuff (and it sounds like plenty of others in here do too), so I’ll ask this here.

I’m currently a (Canadian) university student, so I have little debt, and my share of free cash. Now, I’ve been frequently following the stock markets, and investing here and there. I’ve also managed to increase total investment value by 50% in less than 3 months.

However, I go for penny stocks, the very high risk kind, a.k.a. pump and dump (not all that much cash on hand at this point in my life), which can skyrocket 300% and plummet 80% in one day. I always research companies before investing, identify where the pump is coming from and why, and essentially make sure I get in before the dump, and get out before it ends, even if that means missing out on most of it.

Also, I have read The Intelligent Investor (among others), and while the advice is sound and I do apply it, I am not satisfied simply making 15% yearly returns on a “slow and steady” method. I do understand the addictive nature of these high risk stocks, but that’s my investment style (I’ll add that I’m probably going to invest in dividend stocks once I have that kind of money). So far, so good, but without going more into it, what do you have to say about this?

^ H. Knight

I think sooner or later with penny pump and dump you’ll bite it. It might take even year, but its likely a trade or a combination of them will go against you and severely so.

If you’ve managed to gain 50% these past few months and missed the losses most people took since last September, you should consider yourself fortunate. If you did take losses then, then you should know how difficult it is to make money back once its lost especially in active trading.

The past couple months have been pretty unique with some spectacular bargains. I wouldn’t count on making 50% consistently. There have been numerous much more rewarding opportunities with much less risk. Google, Wells Fargo or Petro-Canada (Example from Canada for you and I actually had this one) have all returned around that much or more with much less risk in the past couple month time span.

I’ve browsed through Intelligent Investor and I remember liking it even though its pretty heavy. My favorite books have always been Peter Lynch’s stuff. Its pretty readable and entertaining and its made the most sense to me. I’m currently reading Philip Fisher’s books.

Can someone help me out with the FTHB credit? I think I cleared way too much this year to qualify, but I don’t know how to calculate MAGI. Does this include bonuses? If so, I think I might not qualify for the FTHB credit at all… most websites don’t go into it too much with how it works. I’ve already filed my taxes this year, would I still be able to apply for a change and apply it towards last years’ taxes? I qualified for the credit last year, I know… this year doesn’t seem like it.

Thanks in advance for any help on this subject, I’m about to buy my first home soon and I’m trying to get the credit.

An alternative way to get in the high beta stocks such as Google, Baidu, etc. without the need to actually own the stock is to do it through options. Since most people probably don’t want to buy more than a handful of shares of Google because it’s so high priced, they can still get in on the action of the stock on the short term by buying the much more affordable options which are calls (the intention of profitting when the stock rises upon the sale of the call) or puts (the intention of profitting when the stock falls upon sale of the put).

There can be a very high return as the high beta stocks can move several points a day which causes the price of premiums to move fast too, and the price of premiums can easily get a profit much higher than owning the actual stock itself. But of course, the opposite is true too, where if the stock moves opposite of the intended direction, the play could be a dud and you could eventually be forced to eat it since the option will expire. The stock’s high beta movement may not get a good return in itself e.g. if Google was at 500, and gains 5 points, that’s only 1%, but that causes for example the premium for the current month’s GOOG 510 call to increase by a LOT more.

There are of course risks involved here too as options expire and the price of the stock does not move in the direction you were expecting, the maximum loss being the total purchase of the option.

There are also options for stocks currently owned as well, by selling calls too (1 contract per 100 shares of owned stock). For currently owned stocks, the sales of calls can help hedge your cost basis and increase the overall return of the investment. If you sell a call at a strike price where you would be satisfied to sell the stock at, it’s a positive in two ways:

  • If the actual stock price hits the strike price before the option expires, if the option buyer exercises their option, your shares will be let go and sold at that price, a price you were satisfied with in the first place. Plus, with the sale of the call, that helps offset your cost basis e.g. if you sold 1 call contract at a premium of $2, that on paper lowers the price you paid for the stock by $2 per share, in addition to your capital gains from selling the stock. The obvious negative here is the lost opportunity if the price of the stock skyrockets past the strike price… so that’s why you set it at a price you are happy to let go it. If it sells… let it sell and don’t look back. That’s one of the main rules of playing it… don’t look back.

  • If the actual stock price does NOT hit the strike price and the option does expire, you still end up holding onto the stock, but also make money from the sale of the call. E.g. if you sold the 1 call contract at a premium of $2, you pocket that $200 from that sale as cash (less transaction costs). That on paper also lowers the cost basis for the stock as well, and then you can sell another call and repeat the process, which effectively makes you money by holding onto the stock, similar to dividends. In this way, holding onto the stock can make you some more money rather than just purely your intended capital gains.

Only this. Everyone looks like a genius during a bull market. Even a penny stock can have it’s value measured, and there is certainly money to be made. Don’t fool yourself into thinking big gains like this are sustainable though. Over time you will have to risk more and more money up front as you go, and your risk of loss will increase along with that.

If you’re going to keep doing it, keep an increasingly larger percentage in a bond fund as you go.

Hehe, you think Graham is heavy! Fisher was also a brilliant author, helped Buffett understand what gives a company a durable competitive advantage. “Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits” was so good. It was cute how he takes jabs at Graham here and there. You get the scuttlebutt techniques down along with the margin of safety principle, and you will rule the market.

I’ve got his other book on my desk at work but I’m waiting till I finish Graham again.

This is something I’ve been thinking about doing, but it doesn’t seem like the right time. It’s especially appealing on the stuff I’m getting very high yields on now. I like the idea of collecting extra income, but I don’t want my stocks called away if they’re earning me these great yields now.

Selling covered calls does seem to be the way to go if you’re playing options though. I read somewhere that buying options loses out 4 out of 5 times. Seems smarter to be the house in this case.

hey guys, what’s your opinion on gas credit cards? Been thinking of getting one for savings on gas and what not, know most of us in here have cards for stores like wal-mart and whatnot, so was looking to see if it would be a good investment.

Same rules as any other credit card. Check for annual fees, pay the thing off as you use it. I am not a fan of using credit for my day to day purchases, but it might help with building credit scores.

We have a chain here in Phoenix called QuikTrip that issues a card that links to your debit account. I get 5 cents off a gallon for using it, and I think cash rewards if I buy snacks inside, but it takes like 3 days to debit your account, and it’s easy to forget about it if you don’t keep receipts.

Does anybody in the US notice that they are getting robbed?