Mukuro’s crazy if you know how to use him… :wow:
As for setsuna being high-tier, I beg to differ : mid-high at most. OK, if you spend years learning how to play him best, and especially how to use his setups efficiently, he’s a beast. But he’s still light-years from someone like lee or mukuro. And I like setsuna very much, he’s been my fav for years.
Yeah Setsuna is quite versatile. I dunno about Zantetsu being so high up. I haven’t had much success with him in my experiences but I’m sure other people beg to differ
Even the mod for this forum has neg rep =[
I have to wonder why Kojiroh is mid tier…in the right hands she can be a BEAST TRUST ME…she has good mixups. with Run Cancel etc if mastered…
Hell, I almost feel like putting Zantetsu higher than he already is.
He’s incredibly broken.
He wouldn’t be half as bad if he didn’t have :r::l::r::snkc: >:qcb::snka:.
Wow, let’s give him a move that comes out almost instantly, crosses up ambiguosly, does good damage, has like 0 recovery time, and can be chained/linked at the end of combos. It essentially allows him to zone/reversal from anywhere on the screen.
Mukuro is 3S Chun-Li style broken, but Zantetsu is Yun style broken. Only deadly if you know what to do with him, while Power Mukuro just has retardedly high damage.
Mukuro isn’t deadly if you know how to use him. He’s deadly regardless.
Setsuna’s strength isn’t his versatility either. In fact, he has a very very limited moveset. His strength is that he’s got great reach, and great damage, and his combos are very easy to do.
You could probably argue with me about Kojiroh, I don’t use her nearly as much as I should. I agree she has a fantastic poking/mix-up game, but I don’t see anything special about her that puts her above someone like Shigen or Kaede.
She does have great range on her speed combos though, and run cancel fireballs are fairly safe. She can also wreck you with a max damage combo if she’s got full meter and flashing life.
You could probably move her up a notch if you want. Her standing/crouching A alone has won me some matches.
Not all of Setsuna’s B slashes aren’t necessarily parry bait in power mode because of the quick block stagger that everyone has in that mode.
Plus yeah, I’d like to know how to do the b+A link off d+C. I can’t do it at all. Do you or anyone else know where I can find match vids of this game?
Stagger block doesn’t apply for jump attacks, and only an idiot would throw out a random down+B. Standing B attacks are so easily parried it’s not even funny.
I agree he’s not really parry bait if you know how to low jump+A/B/C properly, and know when to jump attack and when to empty jump.
But the way most people try to play him, he is parry bait all the way.
Tourney videos for this are scarce outside of a-cho. Everyone seems to like this game, but no one bothers getting decent at it. That and like no arcades have it.
From what I’ve seen of top level JP tourney play, their execution is impressive. They rarely miss power links (Even the very difficult ones), but in terms of poking, mix-ups and the like, nothing mindblowingly different.
I’d be happy to play you on Kaillera if you need me to show you anything.
Yeah, I’d like to start playing this game again just for fun. I never knew that tiers played any role in the game. My mains were Moriya and Hibiki both on speed mode because I did really well with them all around.
It doesn’t play as big a role as it does in other games. Last Blade tiers are a lot like MOTW or Vampire Saviour tiers. The gap between mid’, upper-mid’ isn’t all that huge (Besides Zantetsu and Mukuro, and to a lesser extent Moriya)
Mmh …, latly I’m trying to get back into the game and learn some new chars just for the fun of it … Kaede and Washizuka are my picks for now, yep I really put Zantetsu and Kagami on the bench.
I would rank Speed Kaede somewere in the mid tier and Washi in the upper mid. Washi has some nice combos in speed and can chain his DM after the normal speed combos b+A, A, A, d+B. He is also fast and has a good high low game, thx to his b,f+C. With Kaede I’m currently in need of a good midscreen combo, I can’t really decide for now. I abuse his air fireball together with hcf+C, which has the nice feature to be unblockable and combo into his Speed Combo Specials or the normal qcb,d/b,f+AB. When I’m corned this moves helps a lot to get out with some great damage or a side change with the help of Kaedes air throw. Btw, if you end some combos with his air throw it is just to stylish, here an example … hcf+C, d,d+A, A, B, C, d+C, A, d+C, f+BC, j.CD, but this isn’t always easy to do. In the corner without meter, I usually go for the b+A, A, A, B, BC, dp+B + follow up, d/f+B. I sometimes just use a sweep or mix in d+C, dp+A, C to have a minimal high low game. Anyway, my main game is about landing a Speed Combo Special after the hcf+C. Every advice is welcome. Before I forget, Kaede’s j.A seems to be his best cross up option and is also a good air-air move …
@Kyokuji
I finally got my hands on a Converter to use my Stick. Maybe I get back into some casual online play, but my connection isn’t so hot and I hate lag. However I would give it a try for LB2 (like Garou a year ago, what I really disliked online), because I don’t have any competition offline (I have enough for Garou, CvS2 and even SS so no need for playing them online, but no LB2 love here :().
You can find on me on GodWeapon or Anti3D if you wanna play Terry.
I’ve played with other Europeans before and it runs ok, not great, but ok, so long as you’re not any further than France or Germany.
If you’re in Finland or something, then we might have some lag issues, lol.
I’m not a fan of Kaede in speed mode. He has a really great overhead, but he lacks the damaging combos he has in power, his :hcf::snkc: follow-ups don’t do nearly as much damage, and you can’t do them nearly as often because the meter fills so slowly in speed. His A pokes aren’t as godly either because they don’t cause any stagger block in speed. Kaede and Kojiroh probably have the best standing A pokes in the game on power. As well, the range on most of his specials suck, so half the time you end up having to end his combos with :r::snkc: and then dash in :snkc::hcf::snkc: which doesn’t really do all that much damage.
Washizuka has a very very nice :d::snkc::l::snka: link in speed though. If you can get the timing on it down, it makes him like 50 times more dangerous.
K, we could try soon. I tried already 3 hours ago and damn I got badly beaten by a Moriya user with my Speed Kaede. I hope to learn from you some stuff with him, besides my bit knowledge. This is not Samurai Showdown, so a big difference (also the fact why I don’t want to play really competiteve in LB or LB2, my SS skills you know).
Btw, how would you rank Speed Kaede in general?
(LB2) Kaede Guide
***My Kaede guide was moved here in case you’re confused **
Kaede Guide
Power Mode:
:l::snka: (x3) :snka::dp::snkb: (x2) (Very nice damage for such a simple combo)
:l::snka: (x3) :snka::qcf::qcf::snkb: (I love the way this looks :D)
:l::snka: (x3) :r::snkc::qcb::db::r::snka::snkb:/:snkb:
:l::snka: (x3) :r::snkc::qcb::snkc: :l::snka::u::snkc::snkd:
:l::snka: (x3) :r::snkc::qcf::qcf::snka::snkb: (Hold) (Late release)
:hcf::snkc::qcf::qcf::snka::snkb:
:hcf::snkc::qcb::db::r::snkb:
(Timing is tight on the :r::snkc: link after :l::snka:)
(If they block the first one or two :l::snka:'s don’t keep following it up. You’ll probably get parried.
All modes:
:hcf::snkc::qcb::db::r::snka::snkb:
:hcf::snkc::dp::snkb: (x2)
:hcf::snkc::uf::snkc::snkd:
(Corner) :hcf::snkc: (low jump) :uf::snkb::u::snkc::snkd:
Speed mode:
:l::snka::snka::snka::snkb: > :qcf::snka:/:snkb: OR :dp::snka:/:snkb: (x2) OR :qcb::snka: (Only at point blank) OR :r::snkc:
(I mention :r::snkc: because it’s useful for him more than anyone since the range on his specials suck, and his :qcf::snka: is often punishable even on hit).
OPTIONAL: Do the first :l::snka: 2 or 3 times then link it in to the rest of the speed combo. Much harder to do, and to me it’s not worth the piddily extra damage you get/range you lose.
:l::snka::snka::snka::snkb::r::snkc: > Dash :snka: :d::d::snka:/:snkb: (Set-up, not a combo) (If they know how to low-jump forward parry the speed combo, don’t use this)
:hcf::snkc::d::d::snka:/:snkb:
(Corner):l::snka::snka::snka::snkb: > :snkb::snkc::dp::snkb: (x2)
:d::snkc: :dp::snka:
(Activate Speed Combo :d::d::snka:/:snkb:) :snka::snkb::snkc::d::snkc::d::snka::d::snkc:
:r::snkb::snkc::qcb::snkc: :snka::u::snkc::snkd:
(Activate Speed Combo :d::d::snka:/:snkb:) :snka::snkb::snkc::d::snkc::d::snka::d::snkc:
:r::snkb::snkc::qcb::db::r::snka::snkb: OR :qcf::qcf::snka::snkb: OR :dp::snkb: (x2) or :uf::snkc::snkd:
(Corner)** (Activate Speed Combo :d::d::snka:/:snkb:)** :snka::snkb::snkc::d::snkc::d::snka::d::snkc:
:r::snkb::snkc: (Low-jump) :uf::snkb: :u::snkc::snkd: (Be careful if they air recover, the timing of the CD changes)
EX mode:
:l::snka::snka::snka::snkb: > :qcb::snka::qcf::qcf::snka::snkb:
Basic Gameplan:
Kaede’s big advantage is his :hcf::snkc: move and all its respective follow-ups, which makes him a nice mix between a grappler and a striker. The fact that it has no start-up time combined with Last Blade’s run-throw game makes it very dangerous. You can get big damage off of this in any mode. Just find an opening, or put them in block-stun, then dash in and use the command throw. Some of my favourites are:
Low-jump :uf::snka:/:snkb:/:snkc: > Dash (Delayed) :hcf::snkc:
Empty Low-jump or Low-jump (late) :snkd: > Dash :hcf::snkc:
His power links have surprising range, so don’t be afraid to throw out 2 or 3 :l::snka:'s even if it looks like you’ve been pushed back a bit too far. His air throw is good for bunny hoppers in the corner. His DM is relatively safe on its own compared to most supers, and is great for chipping a near dead opponent, or as an anti-air if you’re sure it’ll hit (only use it like that when your life is flashing), but its greatest strength is that it can be chained off his command throw. Avoid using his :qcb::snka:/:snkb: at all costs. I know I listed some combos with that in it, but you have to be almost point blank for it to hit, and even then you have to cancel into it really fast, otherwise it gets blocked and you eat a combo. His fireball has a lot of lag on it, even with the :snka: version, so use it sparingly. Even if it hits during a combo, I think some characters can actually hit him back right after because it gives them the frame advantage. His roll doesn’t have any invincibility on it, so don’t use it too much unless you really need to get out of the corner, or it’s part of a combo.
His standing A on power is godly. Abuse it to hell. Don’t do it so much that it gets parried, but keep them on their toes. It comes out unbelievably fast, has great range, and has like no recovery so you can get a lot of chip damage this way. Just short dash standing :snka: (not dashing :snka:) over and over.
Kaede’s main problem is he has shit in terms of his high-low game. It’s a bit better on speed with his
:snka::df::snkc: and his overhead, but on power, he’s got nothing. :d::snkc: is his only low poke, and it has lousy start-up/recovery.
Important:
Quick roll recovering from a fall around him is fairly suicidal. After a knockdown with his :dp::snka: or his :qcb::db::r::snka::snkb: DM, you can dash in and do a running :snka: or :r::snkc: and it’s a guaranteed hit if they quick roll recover. If the :snka: hits, you get to combo with
:dp::snkb: (x2) OR :qcf::snka: OR :qcf::qcf::snka::snkb:.
Use :r::snkc: if they’re too close for a dashing :snka:
If the :r::snkc: hits, you get to follow up with any of his supers (Except :qcf::qcf::snkb:). This is much, much more helpful on power, because you can’t link into his DM’s on speed, and the dashing :snka: does a lot more damage on power.
It may seem like the :qcb::db::r::snka::snkb: throws them back way too far for you to hit, but trust me, you can. If you start the dashing :snka: soon enough after the DM animation, it’s a guaranteed hit when they quick roll recover. Be careful though, if you do it too late, they can parry it after their recovery sometimes.
Speed Kaede
Speed Kaede is considerably worse. He loses a ton of damage potential, because he can’t gain meter anywhere near as fast, so he can’t DM off his command throw as often. Plus, he loses :l::snka:, :r::snkc: > DM combos, and can’t DM combo off a ground recover punish as often either. He does gain cancellable low :snkc:, but he doesn’t really have anything safe to use off it, and :d::snkc: has lousy recovery anyway.
The biggest loss outside of damage, is the chip/stagger block on his normals including his :snka:, one of the safest long range pokes in the game.
He can link into his speed combo special from his command throw on speed, but since the damage is roughly equivalent to his DM on power and since you won’t be able to do it as often, that’s pretty much null and void advantage wise.
The only real advantage to using Speed Kaede is that he has a good overhead, but that’s hardly a reason to switch. Also, his speed chains aren’t that great, because you’re forced to use :dp::snka: for consistency and his fireball sucks because it gives your opponent frame advantage.
I’d probably put him just below Power Juzoh.
I’d probably put him just below Power Juzoh.
Miscellaneous Crap:
-I think Kaede’s a shitload better in power because his meter fills up fast as hell, he has his godly stagger block A poke, and he has his nasty power link combos. The only real advantage he has on speed, is that he can link into his speed combo easier than anyone else. Only problem is, his DM’s do just as much damage on power.
-Dashing :hcf::snkc: is an absolute must with Kaede. Especially on power. Get it down pat.
-:dp::snka: has more horizontal range than :dp::snkb:
-You may need to use :l::snka: only once or twice sometimes, when you’re not within ideal range.
-His :snkb::snkc: overhead on speed mode comes out very quickly and has decent range. Combined with his fast :snka: poke, this can make for some nasty mix-up/pressure options. Especially in the corner. I’ve kept people in there for the entire round just by alternating :snka: > :snkb::snkc: , :snkb::snkc: on its own and :snka::df::snkc:. You could also dash :snkc::snkd: or :hcf::snkc: on occasion to mess them up even more (Make sure you hold back as you do :snkc::snkd: though, so Kaede doesn’t toss them out of the corner).
-If the :snkb::snkc: hits in the corner, do a standing A poke to reset them, then dash in quickly and repeat with one of those 3 mix-ups mentioned above. If you’re not confident they’ll fall for it again just follow up with :dp::snkb: (x2) or something.
-Alternate between his :snka:/:snkb: versions of his air fireball for mix-ups. You’ll get a better idea of when to use which as you go on.
-You can’t juggle into his :qcf::qcf::snkb: SDM which is lame 
-Off a successful ground-air parry, do :dp::snkb: (x2)
-You can cancel his air fireball off any of his air normals in speed, but only off :snka: and :snkc: in power mode.
-His jumping :snka: is his best air-air poke if done early, and can cross-up as well.
-Up close, his low-jump :uf::snkc: is his best cross-up option. In fact, his :uf::snkc: in general is a much more reliable cross-up then :snka:. Even when running.
-I wouldn’t use his jumping :snkb: too much when you’re really really close up. It misses most of the time. I’d stick with :snka: for poking and :snkc: for starting combos (Especially because :snkc: crosses up). :snkb: is nice from a bit further away though as long you’re sure you won’t get parried. The low jump version stuffs some specials pretty nicely as well.
-A good tactic after using his :hcf::snkc: is to run in, poke once with :snka:, then do an unblockable as they land. If they know how to parry it, hold it longer and they’ll probably whiff the repel and get hit.
-If you dash jump :qcf::snka: the actual fireball will cross-up. Very useful if you can space it right. Good players probably won’t fall for it though.
-After you score a knockdown. Run in and use :snkc: for the usual ground hit, but whiff :hcf::snkc: after. Great for building meter, and it’s fast enough that they’re not off the ground yet. Very very useful in power. Builds like 15% meter there.
-You can actually get 4 :l::snka:‘s by running in after the first poke, but it’s insanely hard to time, I can’t even do it. You can do even more on large characters like Shigen.
-He has a weird glitch I’ve seen done. You use his :hcf::snkc: then dash under the guy and use his standing :snkb: (Not dashing B). It’ll cross-up, and you can link into his :l::snka: power links from there. I’ve only been able to re-create this once though. The timing/spacing must be very tight. If you get a reset, you’re not doing it right.
-He also has some weird bugs with his electricity DM if Power Shigen uses his :l::snkb: when it hits him.
-:d::snka: does not hit low. I hate this normal. Gets me killed sometimes.
-Low jump :snka: and :snkb: are your friends. Low-jump :snkc: is great close-up.
-You can follow :qcb::db::r::snka::snkb: up with :snka: in the corner.
-The timing for canceling his :snkb::snkc: from his :d::snkb: is weird for some reason.
-Kaede is upper-mid’ tier on power, and mid’ tier on speed.
-You can dash :hcf::snkc: > :snka: (Reset) > Dash :hcf::snkc: forever on some less experienced players in the corner. Fun to mess around with.
-Kaede’s Blue Sky stage is one of my favourites, and it along with the Battlefield, Yuki Machi and the Forest, have the least slow-down of any of the stages in the game.
Watch this get viewed BY ALL THE NEOGEO BATTLE COLISEUM PEOPLE…
Added some important stuff about knockdowns and a crapload of other misc’ crap to it :D.
I’ve never played NGBC, so I wonder how much of this is transferable.
The quick roll information and Miscellaneous Crap was very interesting. Already this helps me a bit, thanks for putting this kinda guide up. A problem I realized was not executing some combos, but rather the right point for what to use. Right know I think in the corner Kaede is a beast, but midscreen with him in Speed Mode …
Btw a nice thing, which Speed has over Power is, that Kaede has a cancelable low with his d+C.
Nice tier list, I’d say Setsunas a little high though.
Here’s what I came up with. Tried to make an exact list for speed and power, but its not easy! Some of the characters are very close together. This is assuming no infs, players capable of all combo links (even the really tricky ones).
Top:
Power Zantetsu (monster!)
Power Mukuro (another monster!)
Speed Zantetsu
Power Lee
Speed Moriya (teleport glitch)
Speed Lee
Upper mid:
Power Amano
Speed Shigen
Power Kaede (awakened)/power Kagami
Speed Akari
Speed Mukuro
Speed Washizuka
Mid:
Speed Kojiro
Speed/power Setsuna
Speed Kagami
Power Akari
Speed Hibiki
Power Juzoh/speed Amano
Power Shigen
Power Kojiro/power Moriya (teleport glitch)
Power Washizuka
Power Hibiki
Speed Kaede (awakened)/power Kaede (unawakened)
Speed Juzoh
Low:
Speed Yuki
Speed/power Okina
Power Yuki
Speed Kaede (unawakened)
There you have it.
Tempted to move speed Kojiro into upper mid, and power Shigen up a few places, I think theres more to him than people realise. If a non jump in link to f+C exists, hes on the way up! Maybe power Akari should be higher too, dunno.
Not sure about power Moriya. I don’t play him often but I can’t seem to do much with him.
Apart from that I’m happy for now, but its hard to put together an exact LB2 tier list so this is subject to change. Happy to explain any decision.
I prefer to put Power Okina above Yuki.
Okina actually has pretty good damage output with his :d::snka:/:snkb: :dp::snka:, his jumping A has decent priority, and he can zone with his turtles. It’s easy for him to get hits in with that since the rod comes out fairly quickly, and isn’t blockable.
Yuki doesn’t have anything going for her besides range really.
By the way, don’t suppose you play on kaillera at all? I’m guessing no, since none of the good LB players seem to.
Power Okina above which Yuki, power or speed? I admit I don’t really use her but she’s above Okina IMO.
Speed Yuki has a lot more going for her than people think. She has her shortcomings, thats why she’s low tier, but shes definitely useable.
I tend to use her similar to a limited speed Wash. Nice range on her standing A gives you a couple of options. A, B, C, df+B gives ok damage, can be hard to get in the df+B though, its slow! Or A, d+A, B, BC, df+B. Her air moves are terible for air to air in my experience (though jump A may have some potential, fast and long range), but they’re for nice for air to ground. Don’t forget hfb+C either, hcb+C, dp+A, C/DF+B can be useful.
One of Yuki’s biggest advantages is her d+C, A link, it goes quite a way towards actually making her dangerous. d+C, A, B, C, followup gives you nice damage from a fast low hit. With full meter you get around 100 damage with d+C, A, B, qcf*2+AB (tap A). Timing is strict on d+C, A, but its a huge asset.
Its harder to defend power Yuki. She’s got the d+C link still so you’ve got d+C, A, dp+A, followup, however the way to get the most damage out of power Yuki is to use b+A, and the timing on all her b+A links are very, very strict. Be prepared to use b+AC! Its possible to do d+C, b+AC, A, dp+A, followup but its real hard to do, maybe even harder than power Kagami’s links.
Don’t forget she still has her hcb+C which is better in power than in speed as hcb+C, dp+A, followup now does more damage. hcb+C also leads into her SDM very nicely.
Power Yuki has no reliable way to use her DM without a jump in, but she isn’t exactly the fastest meter builder in the world anyway. At least it lets her guard cancel more which is always good. She has a guaranteed SDM from f+C or hcb+C though as long as you’re not in the corner. Useful since you’ll probably end up with flashing health anyway when using her!
She also has the range which you’ve mentioned, as well as a better jump B. d+B has massive range, I’ve been playing around with max range d+B but I’m not sure how useful it is just yet. I think that d+B can be worked into her game somehow though.
At the end of the day I’d say Speed Yuki is miles ahead of power Okina, in fact I’m thinking of squeezing her into mid tier. There’s not much between power Okina and power Yuki IMO. Maybe have them on the same level, but I wouldn’t say that Okina’s better. Power Yuki CAN be used, you’ll just have a hell of a time trying to do it!
As for Kaillera I do come on, but rarely. You may be dissapointed though - not only am I in the UK so we’ll have lag issues, but despite me knowing a fair amount about LB2 (if I do say so myself:bgrin: ) my execution is absolutely horrible! Always has been. The only thing that lets me even think about power mode is love of the game, sheer force of will and endless practice.
If you want an idea of what its like to play me, try Rr, I know hes on kaillera nowadays. I taught him and his style is close to mine. He’s in UK too though so I dunno if you’ll see him in any canadian servers.