Lag blame discussion

i didn’t ask about WHY they play online…i asked about whether or not they whine about the lag.

external or not, the result is still the same: when something happens outside of what you expected to happen, you get angry. if it’s your fault, you’re angry. if it’s not your fault, you’re angry. people brush into people at tournaments all the time. if you can’t train yourself to not be angry PERIOD, then it’ll affect your mental state regardless if its external or not.

i can’t think of ANY move in 3S that can go unpunished if it is used randomly. think about it. if you’re not busy yourself, shouldn’t you be watching your opponent? if you’re watching them, shouldn’t you be able to react the moment you SEE them start using it? i mean, it’s 4 frame delay. not 5000ms ping delay.

Yes they whine…I actually know a lot of good kof players that used to play wayyy back on kaillera, and most of them just stopped playing because of lag…but they whined about it first.

Does it really matter if they whined? If they didn’t publically whine, they were most likely keeping it inside…doesn’t change the fact that they are blaming lag for their losses/degraded gameplay.

Ok, suppose Ken does an SA3 which gets blocked. Obviously, you are already preparing for the punish while you’re still blocking it. But now you need to estimate when you can start your combo…obviously, if you use the same timing that you would use offline, you’re going to end up starting your combo a bit late. If you estimate TOO early, your first attack in the combo might not even come out.

It’s even worse when we are talking about moves that require you to actually run forward in order to punish. The entire timing of the punish is different. An easy example would be Iori’s sweep in kof… this move is punishable on block with many things…it is technically possible to run forward with your best combo, but with delay + lag, if you run is slightly delayed, and your actual attack during your run, is input too late, then most Iori noobs will probably dp or super you when you are attempting to punish…it’s retarded. What can you blame here? Lag…how can you adapt? Either don’t punish it at all, or punish it with guaranteed (but weak) attacks…

That said…all this discussion I’m basing on the old kaillera lag…not the nfba client, which I haven’t tried but heard was actually quite good.

i’ve never missed a punish from a blocked super in 4 frame delay. NEVER. and no, i’m not only an online player. i’m an offline player. i’m not going to sit here and say that people and adjust immediately, especially if they just started playing online. but all it takes is a bit of perseverance.

you guys are CLEARLY exaggerating. in 4 frame delay, you only need to time your moves SLIGHTLY earlier than what it would be. VERY VERY SLIGHTLY. the only times i’ve ever missed anything is when there’s a sudden lag spike, or it gets insanely laggy (someone joining your network, streaming shit, etc). if such is ever the case, i just stop playing and play at another time.

Yeah I actually was talking about general kaillera delay, that you’d get on emulinker…not the p2p and nfba clients. But still, 4 frames delay can definitely mess up those run up punish combos.

I can’t imagine doing Daimon unblockable glitch setups on kaillera…the glitch requires you to do multiple reversals in succession with no frame gaps in between, in order to land them. Reasonably easy on GGPO, near impossible on kaillera. If you miss an unblockable, you’re wide open…if I were to miss one on kaillera, who am I going to blame? Lag/Delay. If I miss it on GGPO, I’d either blame lag/frame skip or myself(usually the latter if it happens).

This makes me think of the old XBL threads where every single post would begin with
"Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say online skill has anything to do with offline skill"…or something of the sort. Like, people would say that just because of lag nobody’s wins counted for anything…and in my head, I was always like “Come on, do you really think that?”

I say in 3 frame delays most of the skill is still there and people shouldn’t bitch. I mean look at the online ranbat results…if we had an online ranbat with the same players, we’d get the same results. That says something.

On the other hand in 4 (OR 5 OMG!) frame delay I get ruined, can’t land the fierce after the karakusa, that means somethings wrong, and I make this face :expressionless: and my spirit disappears. There’s a big difference between people just looking for a reason they lost that has nothing to do with how retarded they play or how good they are at the game…and people failing basic execution for them because of intense delay.

And that’s why I say just stop when the delay becomes 4 frames or switch to XBL Akuma.

Honestly, I was able to transfer my skills to online very easily. The only thing I had to do was just adjust to the delay which isn’t hard if there’s no spikes since it is consistent. The only thing you can be pissed about is lag spikes. Whenever I play exo or nataku, there’s no lag bullshit in play. We hit confirm and use normal tactics just like it was offline since he know how to adapt to the situation. If you can’t handle the nature of online, then either don’t play or adapt. You’re human and can adapt to the delay. Then you have individuals that say there’s not much of an offline scene, so “I play online”. Then I guess offline play, doesn’t mean that much to you then.

Online is supposed to hone your skills so you can transfer them to offline when you do choose to play offline. The only thing u have to do is adjust your timing which only takes a day or two. EXO has a good point which I agree.

What frame delay do you usually play in? When I feel like getting a genuine game, I absolutely do not tolerate anything more than 3 frame delay, I tell the person ahead of time that we’re simply not gonna play if I expect it to be more than that. I can’t combo at all past 3 frame delay and pick less hit-confirm type characters like Alex, Urien, or Denjin Ryu past 3 frame delay. But, I don’t belive you play 3s.

But, its online though, lets not get all serious about lag and stuff. My controller is at about 65% condition right now and I just mess around with other characters for fun. I can’t do anything precise with me having about a 30% chance I will jump if I press anything besides jump. But, its still fun if you don’t take it seriously. Nowadays, since I don’t care about genuine games as much, I’ll play 10 frame delay and do jump in supers. As long as the opponent recognizes the game is not genuine, its fun shit.

Casuals I would not give 2 shits about. Cause we can get in a nice long set that lets me adjust to the connection. Plus casuals isnt about just winning. All im saying is adapting to a coast to coast connection dureing a best out of 3 matches is insane. Especially when you are fighting someone on the same skill level or slightly above,oppurtunites comes rarely.The people who dont have a problem with this plays coast to coast frequently, so the connection is familiar to them. Most of us dont care to play coast to coast when we have sooooo many decent-good players here on the ec .

fixed that for you :rock:

seems like it’s a personal choice. i’ve only recently started running the ranking battles…for which the purpose was the UNITE the 2 coasts together and promote friendly competition. if you neglect playing at 4 frames when it is so readily open to you, then how can you expect me to conform to a segregation of coasts? your inability to adapt immediately to coast to coast during tournament time is due to your choice of not playing coast to coast regularly. there’s good players on both coasts.

That is true. But you can’t blame anyone for that. If opponent A is as good as opponent B, but one is on WC and the other is EC. You can’t blame someone for running to the coast closest to them. Its not that I dont want to play them, its just thats how it usually goes down. Being that there are more ECers on line then WCers. It its a never ending cycle. The cycle does get broken but rarely, not enough for you to adjust in 2 of 3 matches.
I guess i just gotta play westcoast more often…

all i knows is that i’m going to continue playing a handicapped came on my ps1 pad as long as online play is free. Playing mexicans/columbians/brazilians with close to perfect play; even if I can’t execute for shit (can’t hop, can’t run can’t do any motion consistantly, and most famous snk motions not at all) is still worth it cause I can still learn tricks from playing these players.

I do notice that my CD counters are off 9 times out of 10 due to input delay. and most technical cancels are impossible (daimon df+C into whatever, low D’s into whatever; athena j.Cxxbumxxball never or athena low B xx f+B xx qcb+B; hop back xx aerial moves etc.)

or getter better internets ku ku ku ku ku

…Haha. I just like how this is actually a mature discussion. I’m just happy to make the cross over to this one, and not the XBL boards. Since you can see the maturity in the discussion, and it’s usually in the gameplay.

When I play people, they already have a style of play and they know what works and doesn’t. So if I do something like an UOH thats blocked, and I super afterwards. I’ll apologize, but they’ll tell me not to because they know it’s lag. Cause I had to input the timing earlier than normal. So I can deal with laggy connections if the people are cool and understanding.

On the other hand thats my personal opinion. I understand the whole be grateful for what you have, cause I’m just grateful the people are so awesome, thats enough to keep me playing lag or not. I know others are saying “compared to offline”, “It’ll make your skills better offline”. Things like that. It’s not that I would choose not to play in 4 frame delay cause I’ll blame my losses on lag. Cause I know the other person understands just like me. I just would rather not play because it just isn’t as fun (Not always). It’s worse when it’s compounded by the lag abusing gimmicky players.

When I played on XBL, thats pretty much was the whole comminuty. Especially after Mame came out. I do play better safe, but I just have more fun when I’m able to just let go and be wreckless, and still have my parries to rely on when I mess up. If I’m playing in 4 frame delay, like RPD said if I’m not psychic it’s makes it difficult, and as Emil said it changes how you play. Which isn’t that fun to me. For example, against Urien players I’m dead, it’s nothing I can do about it (effectively to result in a win). I actually feel bad for them, cause I’m not giving them a good match and just getting juggled. :lol:

Again, I just think it depends on the player. It seems like the “Blame lag people” are a very small vocal minority. Most people already understand lag, they would rather play people on their coast, and if there is none. They’ll be more than happy to do coast to caost.

Just some examples on the coolness of people, representing the majority of players. I played Hakiru a few times, and he’s WC. Sometimes our connection can be actually decent. Others it’s really laggy. But he’s so fun to play, and understanding, I just don’t care. He also never cares what Coast he plays. For the Ranbat, I played Desistyle. It was laggy, we both said it at the beginning of our match. He’s WC. I won, but we both understood it was laggy, it was just dissapointing. But he didn’t blame his loss on it, but I know he felt he could have played/done a whole lot better. If he won, he wouldn’t throw it in my face either. I also played against Sabin, Alex vs Ken is a bad match up for me, and it was laggy. He never did anything intentionally lag abusing, and I loss. Nothing I can do about it, we both said GG’s and he went on. I’m sure if I won, he’d do the same.

So people can play in laggy connections, I just think it’s a vocal minority, if they’re even that vocal. Though they’d prefer to play their coast. Others are just more compettive so they want the best. And I play for fun, and to play other cool people. I don’t think the ranbat has to be coast to coast just yet. Lets concentrate on getting the cap of players, before we take it that far.

Emil writes like lag is simply unnaceptable, and yet he will never ever ever play offline, like exodus do most of the time. This thread is the Bizarro world of FGD I guess.

Most of what emil said is actually on point.

Most of what Kyokuji says has to be taken with a caveat. Kyokuji will ALWAYS acknowledge lag because he himself can easily sense it, and he’s also a nice guy. The annoyance comes when people refuse to admit there is lag, and are also at the same time arrogant about it.

The frame discussion is too simplistic. I’ve found that a great many people online have extremely shitty connections or for whatever reason games aren’t smooth when I play with them. I’ve found that with others the games are more playable with a higher ping/frames of delay. But in no scenario is it ever the same as offline play. If Evo was done entirely online I would consider it an absolute joke, and more than likely every top player would refuse to enter it. Players that did enter it, would as Emil suggested, not play a reactionary style.

I mean it seems like most of you just stand around and take turns comboing each other. I can understand why 4 frames of delay means nothing in that context, and why even lag spikes don’t matter quite as much. But if you told Ricky Ortiz and Daigo that when they moved their sticks forward, it would take 4 frames to register, they’d go apeshit, because now they can’t footsie or poke worth for shit. They’d find some other way to win, no doubt, if they wanted to, but chances are instead they will just look at it with disgust and refuse to play on it. Movement is the most overlooked aspect of competitive fighting games.

In A3, KOF and pretty much every other game I’ve played for any amount of time, a half second lag spike could be the difference between losing 50% or more of your health, and having a superior position and winning a game. Offline, the person with superior footsie and poking is going to realistically win most of the time, and it’ll usually be pretty obvious. Online, you’re throwing that out the window, with that huge component out of the game, it’s not the same game.

I mean seriously if online play is so great, why is it that most of the top players still pretty much refuse to play on it? It’s pretty well publicized that Justin won’t touch it. Am I wrong in this? Shouldn’t that mean something? I’m not saying everyone online is necessarily terrible or anything, just that it’s a different game and it doesn’t mean as much as offline play. It’s not in absolute terms either, the superior player can still be superior online and win, but he could also be losing. But it is not the same, nor should people be forced to play it at all. It’s stupid to demand people play you even offline, but online with these extra obstacles it’s even stupider to act like people should play you and be overjoyed, no matter what you say or do to them, as long as you’re beating them.

im such a fuckin scrub!!! exo said so!!

i believe you pretty much missed every point i made, and put words into my mouth.

My post wasn’t directed solely at you, that is why I didn’t quote anything either, so that you wouldn’t think I was targeting you.

But 4 frames is a lot. There is no way around that. Anyone that is even slightly good at fighting games will tell you that 4 frames is a lifetime. I know because of my quick informal poll. I know that wasn’t your point or anything, but it needs to be mentioned.

Location, location, location. Not everyone in the country can wake up in the morning, roll out of bed and they’re already inside Chinatown Fair or FFA. I don’t blame Justin or anyone the likes of him for not wanting to touch online play, hell I would be the same way if I was where he is but I’m not and it’s all I’ve got until Final Round rolls around next year and that’s pretty sad. I’m definently in the wrong part of the country for competitive 3S.