I would never even be able to PLAY some of these games (RB, Bakumatsu, etc) with other people, much less people who are really into them, ever, without the help of online play. It seems in bad taste to start complaining about the hand that feeds.
These days…there is only 1 thing to be said about lag. i.e. GPOG or “Go play on GGPO.” End of the discussion. It doesn’t need a thread as big as this one.
Exactly, if I wanted to go to a tourney I’d go side by side in an arcade. But alas I don’t, so I could care less about lag.
Plain and simple: If you get lucky enough to win after getting your ass beat because of lag, quit before saying “owned.”
That’s the rule of Kaillera.
Just because both players are playing in the same environment doesn’t mean both players are affected in the same way, especially if one player is abusing the lag and the other is not.
Reactionary players are going to be affected by lag a lot more than players that just randomly toss out shit with no sense, hoping it hits. Generally the ones that complain about the people complaining about lag, are the latter type of players that can’t really understand the importance of having no lag in the match or don’t understand what I mentioned in the first paragraph about both players not being affected equally even if they are in the same environment.
That said, I find it quite funny when totally random button mashers that clearly show no display of fighting game knowledge/sense, complain about lag.
Blame canada.
I cant stand playing 3s in 4 frames of lag. ST is mostly fine.
3s is a game of hit confirms… the two players jump/dash around, get knockdowns, blah blah blah, but at the end of the day if your crazy mindgames allow you to hit your opponent with a low forward and you do not connect the super then it was all completely pointless. Your super coming out 1 frame or 4 frames late can actually make it so you are the one eating the combo.
Plus stuff like blocking overheads on reaction (especially in the corner with the aegis on you) or parrying things like remy’s cold blue kick, or dealing with urien’s ex heabutts, or yun’s dives…
3s is like 85% a game of split second reactions.
That said if ppl whine about lag thats dumb, they should just stop playing.
On the topic of being grateful. Those of you who don’t know me, I started playing on XBL in 2005. 3s isnt the first fighting game that i started playing. I played tons of games from Kof96 to GG. All those games I had little to no competition in. I used to dream about the days when you could play people all around the world from your PC. I never thought online play through console would ever happen in my gameing time. When i heard you could play people around the world from console through your Tv my mouth nearly hit the ground. If I want competion in 3s I have to travel to the city which is about a hour from me. Which is not bad at all. But at the end of the day I end up spending $50-$60 in Gas money,parking,and food cause im down there for about 8 hours. SO I AM MORE THEN GRATEFUL FOR ONLINE PLAY. On XBL I had about 60,000 matches.I made the move from XBL to Mame cause the lagg was not helping my offline timeing at all. I wouldn’t be nearly as good as I am now, if it wasnt for online play.
Exodus I respect what you say as a good player and a person in general. When you and shinshay stepped onto the XBL scene back in 06"correct me if im wrong" you guys smoked me like a freshly rolled joint. From that day on my eyes was opened to how 3s should be played, and there after I didnt want to play the game if I couldnt play like that. Its bin 2 years since then and in that time i have broken my game down several times and built it back up trying to undue my RANDOM WAYS and im still only decent with characters other then remy.But atleast I can say Im not random in any shape or form now. Its not easy learning certain things online. When you came online you already had a very good understanding of the game. Which is why its alot easier for you and say nataku to adapt to coast to coast gameing. Im not saying that online didn’t get you better, but you had a mighty strong foundation when came on board. You were already placeing good in tourneys like 06 Nec.
The reason I brought up keeping WC and EC ranbat seperate is because, even though this is all for fun there is a ranking system involved. All i want is to be able to use my full potential. Regardless if I suck or not, i wanna know that I gave it my all and it just wasnt good enough, or maybe it was good enough who knows. Last Evo East I lost to a Alex player due to human error. He was knocked down and we both had like 10% energy. I ran up to his body and I smelled wake up super all over him, so i held block and sure enough super came out. I went for a jump in combo and messed up. But the point of the matter is i gave it all I had and lost due to human error not some unknown element like lagg. Mixups are the easy part to 3s when you use 50/50’s. If you really want to get good at 3s you gotta look outside of 50/50’s. When you start playing like that is when the lagg hammers down on you.
Lag or Delay? I experience consistent lag on GGPO from a decent amount of the players in the MvC lobby [doesn’t seem to be too much different than Kaillera in that respect]. Maybe it’s just the specific people I’m playing [I only play games once in a while]. For example, I was playing Brandon yesterday. We went for about 5 rounds every round was laggy. I found it irritating to my eyes to try to play in that.
I had a few good not so laggy games before with other people, but I can verify that our pings were very low. I believe Brandon and I separate by a about approx 2400 km.
It’s still in it’s alpha stages so I guess we have more good things to look forward to. The delay rocks though :tup: :tup:.
Sure ok…I’ll GPOG as soon as ST is on there.
well…here’s the thing. 3S ISN’T about hit confirms. at the very least, not in it’s true sense. the only match i even remotely consider hit confirms important is a chun li mirror. and not just any chun li mirror, but a turtle chun mirror. the chuns that just constantly throw out those MKs in order to confirm them. most of the time, hit confirms are just confirming whether or not your opponent was doing something right before they got hit. training mode hit confirms (opponent does not move, you actually have to confirm the HIT) are almost non-existent in actual 3S play.
sure, i had a decent understanding of 3S BEFORE i hopped onto xbox live. but it was xbox live that trained me into a deeper understanding of 3S. my 3S game didn’t even mature until maybe about a year or so ago. and i owe it mostly to online play.
your ability to recognize things enhance after you’ve played through the delay. you tend to play more safe, less wreckless, and hone your timing even more. if you’re able to alter your timing and play online, that helps your offline timing IMMENSELY. for most players, it’s the ability to embrace the difference and adapt to it. the repulsion of the delay sends them running.
i didn’t make this thread to preach. it was mainly to express my disgust at how unsportsmanlike some people are, and a discussion of lag tolerance came out of it. as a veteran 3S player, online helped my game.
That’s not what it seems like when you watch high level 3S from Japan.
I kind of agree with this in the sense that, if you try to play online play as if you were playing in an arcade, AND you intend to actually want to overcome this delay, you will have to train to improve your reaction ability even more. However, just adapting to the delay by playing like a lag abuser (splash spamming Hugos, for instance) is the wrong way to go and this is generally what people complain about - people that do shit that would totally not work in the reality, intentional or not.
In the first case, you feel like you are being victimized because your opponent is intentionally abusing something external to the game (lag) - like you’re being cheated. In the second case, it would be annoying because you have a player who doesn’t really know how to play, yet thinks he does because his nonsense gameplay happens to be working in this laggy environment - a mislead player that will probably not change his ways unless he gets owned offline.
This is just not true. Doing a low forward as a meaty and then hit confirming is a fundamental part of gameplay. If youre doing a meaty your opponent had no chance to be doing anything beforehand.
That’s one thing I’ll agree with. Learning online timing can help your offline timing because you have to be able to react a lot faster. Still, you spend too much time online, and it can take a while to get used to offline timing again, and anything more than 3 or 4 frames of delay is complete shit.
Honestly, I’ve heard very very little complaining about lag on P2P. It was way more understandable back in the days when we had like 6-8 frame delay.
That whole VC argument is wayy too semantic though. I know you know your 3S Exodus, but A3 is a completely different game, and VCs aren’t Geneii Jin. That whole game is a race to build meter, and the first person who activates usually wins.
If I’m juggling someone, it lags, and I drop them or they tech out, then they’ve got meter, and I’ve got none, which means I’m in serious trouble depending on who they’re using. It’s not like GJ either where there’s a lot of leeway. If you’re half a second off, the other guy can easily tech out of your combo.
Worst case scenario, they tech, activate and counter VC right away, and if your meter’s still running down, you can’t block it, so you better hope you have time to get away.
That being said, if you’re playing online, you should know how shit works beforehand, but lag can and definitely will cost you a match in that game. A lot of VCs do anywhere from 50-100% damage if you count infinite CCs afterwards, and certain characters have unblockables that you can’t get out of unless you have meter to alpha counter with.
considering that not every character has hit confirms, no, 3S isn’t about hit confirms. it’s one aspect of it, but it does not DEFINE the game. every principle of a fighting game applies to 3S, with the exception of the old fireball->srk corner pressure. spacing, anticipation, combos, hit confirms, offense/defense. all of it applies. so no, 3S isn’t about hit confirms, no matter where it is played. i also said it was ALMOST non-existent, not that it is completely non-existent.
the argument about players blatantly lag abusing. if you’re not smart enough to adapt to someone spamming a certain move or certain mechanics, as long as it’s not EXTREMELY LAGGY, then you need to build up your patience. no GOOD player whines about lag tactics. sure, the lag tactics might get a round or a match, but a gimmick can only work for so long.
while this is true, this is also an advanced part of gameplay. i never said you can play online to emulate offline 3S in its entirety. take your typical average skilled player. there are so many aspects of the game that he can improve on, the last thing he needs to worry about is hit confirming meaties.
kyokuji - i actually don’t play A3, and i don’t know its details. therefore, i can’t argue on it in detail…but the concepts of offense and defense still apply, and i still believe that just because you missed an offensive opportunity does not mean you will lose the match. once again, only in the scenario where both players are equally skilled and always go down to the wire, does a random lag spike affect that particular round.
you guys have to remember that everything is relative. when i talk about online lag, i’m not talking about the spikes. if there’s a lag spike, the connection IS NOT STABLE. if there’s 1-4 frame delay, but NO lag spikes, then that’s a good stable connection.
when i praise online play as helping players evolve, i’m not going to say that the online play will help them beat japan’s best. the best players in the world usually have people they play with locally. they don’t NEED online. but for most of us, online 3S will definitely help us improve our game. and don’t try to counter and pick apart my argument by going for the extreme case scenarios, or specific situations like meaty hit confirms. no statement is ever absolute; there are always exceptions, but when people make a statement, they talk about the overall picture. would i play online INSTEAD of offline? no.
Its available on the test server.
Yes, because many of them give up playing online.
Depends what the gimmick is. How about in kof where some people spam hop D into crouch B, or empty hop into crouch B, over and over? The counter to this is risky, you might be able to beat the gimmick a few times but in the end it’s going to overwhelm you.
Also, you said something to the effect of “just because the lag screwed up your combo doesn’t mean that it was the entire cause of you losing because what about all the things that happened before the lag spike” and well…this all goes back to Ponder’s old article about critical points. When you screw up a game winning combo like that, the entire match changes. The momentum shifts to the opponent, especially in something like A3, as Kyokuji mentioned. But even worse is how it affects you mentally…most would get frustrated at the fact that they just screwed up their game winning combo…this frustration results in them playing worse later in that same match and it could very well result in a big comeback for the opponent…all because of a missed combo/counter due to lag.
An even better example would be when the opponent does something punishable and I’m ready to run up for the easy punish combo and but it ends up lag comes in and I screw up the punish and instead eat a super. Now, instead of the opponent being dead and me having a perfect, both players have 50% health…again, the momentum changes here, and I would probably second guess my ability to punish things in lag. I’d probably turtle up and refuse to punish the next few things that the opponent did because I’d be too afraid of lag screwing it up again…opponent can take advantage of my frozen state now and probably come back and win…when people pull these type of bullshit wins, I give them NO credit whatsoever…they don’t deserve it. Pulling out dps/supers after semi-punishable random moves that you hope the opponent screws up punishing due to lag, gets no respect from me. The gameplay is meaningless, just a lag tactic.
i agree.
and what of the good players that DO play online?
…
i’m very well aware that when you miss something because of a LAG SPIKE, that can change your mentality and turn the momentum in favor of your opponent. BUT, if you get angry, shouldn’t that be something you’re working on in your game? in tournaments, one of the biggest hills people must climb is the overcoming of nervousness. when someone’s nervous, they’re prone to make errors in both execution and judgment. if a player gets mad easily, i’d think it’s in their best interest to overcome that obstacle, as opposed to quit. quitting doesn’t help them. if they fuck up in an offline tournament, it’s the same thing. they’ll get mad, the opponent will have an opportunity to reverse the momentum. in this respect, i’d go in favor with playing online since it gives you more opportunities to work on your flaws.
if an opponent is blatantly spamming moves that are indeed punishable, then why aren’t you able to counter it by looking out for it and timing your punishment? clearly if you cannot even do that then you’re incapable of adaptation. if you can’t adapt, then don’t bother with online at all. if you want to tough it out, then leave your ego aside.
i’ll say it again. i don’t play online 3S to be the best player in the world. there’s no crown involved when you beat players online. the way i approach online 3S is that it allows me to become a better player because it hones certain skills.
if you’re unable to punish and do things on reaction in 4 frame delay, then that’s clearly you. i’ll say it again, i’m not talking about SPIKEY JERKY connections. im talking about stable 1-4 frame delay. so bringing up to me the fact that you fucked up a VC because of a lag spike…that doesn’t really counter any arguments. you’re bringing up a specific case at a specific time, one that does not describe online 3S in its normal form. lag spikes CAN happen, but they RARELY happen under normal conditions.
Generally because they don’t have much of an offline scene to go to, or don’t care much about how well they do online.
Depends what I have a reason to be angry about…lag is an external thing, I think there is a valid reason to be angry about it…it wouldn’t be any different than someone deciding to hit your joystick in the middle of your combo in an arcade, or shake the machine violently while you are playing. Otherwise, I agree that when you screw up shit normally in a match, it is important to train yourself to not get angry/nervous…
It’s not about spamming…it’s about them doing random punishable moves. In the end, if someone does something that has recovery and you KNOW you can punish it, but run up and fail to punish due to lag(delay or spiking or frame skip), then there isn’t really an issue here about adaptation…after you fail punishing it once, you end up in a state where you are afraid to try to punish almost anything, and thus the opponent gets too many second chances when they miss stuff. The adaptation here would be to just stay away from the range of any possible random moves he might toss out, but then you’re playing a totally different style of game and because of what? Because of lag. In this situation, I’d just complain about lag to the guy (probably call him a lag abuser if he is one) and leave. It’s not worth it to adapt in this particular situation.
In Xbox CvS2, I hear there is so much delay that it is very difficult to block jump roundhouse into crouch roundhouse, and empty jump into crouch roundhouse. What is your method of adapting here? Just tossing out psychic dps hoping they jump? Walking under in hopes that they jump, only for them to decide to sweep you while you are walking (which you can’t stop to block due to delay). Is it even worth it? It’s a joke…if kaillera was this bad, and I had to fight someone like this in a tournament, then of course I’m going to blame lag…what else could I do?
In some games, timing is so critical that just a little bit of lag completely changes the outcome of the match. in ST, there are many dumb players that just jump at you after they knock you down (and no, they don’t use safe jumps). As reversals are so hard to do online, you are now forced to block this and then be stuck in situations where he will probablyl tick you (which is also very hard to get out, due to reversals being screwed up online). The game changes from you being able to easily counter on wakeup, to now constantly being stuck in situations that heavily favor the opponent…a drastic change in the result of the game, all because of lag. How can anyone not blame it as a reason for losing?