Dude, he’s already top 5. However, top Beni players like Reynald and Romance do not do the Raijinken loop due to it’s risk. We all know how important meter management is, so if you mess up the loop, you lose almost all your meter depending on where you stopped. I know how to do the loop really consistent along with more harder shit but when pressure is on your shoulders you can easily drop the ball. And when I said 500+, I meant 500 damage and above, which includes death lol. I saw Reynald drop it twice at FR and he wasted all his meter, ever since then I have not seen him do it.
Very nice, did not know this, good knowledge to have.
that doesn’t work, her neomax isn’t 0f after the flash, so they can always just high block on reaction to it.
Yo GreatDarkHero, someone is ahead of us in DreamCancel, haha.
TheMasteroth
http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1908.225;topicseen"XIII Tier List:
An overall ranking assigned based on the total number of tools, strengths and weaknesses each character possesses.
S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro
A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen
A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature
B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry
B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima
Potential Based on Position:
A ranking assigned to each character based on how strong they are when compared to other characters in the same position on the team (first/second/third). Essentially a tier list for each spot on the team.
Andy: A+/A/B+
Ash: B/B+/A
Athena: A/B+/B
Benimaru: A+/S/S
Billy: A/A/A
Chin: A/A/A+
Clark: B+/B/B
Duo Lon: A/B+/B
Elisabeth: A/A/A
Goro: B+/A+/S
Hwa: A+/S/S
Iori (Claw): A/A+/S
Iori (EX): S/A+/A+
Joe: B/B+/A
K’: A/A/A
Kensou: A/A/A
Kim: S/A/A
King: A/B+/B
Kula: A/A/B+
Kyo (XIII): S/A+/A+
Kyo (EX): S/A+/A
Leona: B/B+/A+
Mai: B/B+/B+
Mature: A/B+/B+
Maxima: B/B+/B+
Mr. Karate: S/S/S
Raiden: B+/B+/A
Ralf: A/B+/B+
Robert: S/A/B+
Ryo: A/B+/B+
Saiki: B+/A/S
Shen: B/A/S
Takuma: A+/S/S
Terry: B/B+/B+
Vice: B/B+/A
Yuri: B+/A+/S
Top 10 Batteries:
A list of the characters who both build meter very quickly, while also having many tools and strong damage options with no meter or drive.
Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything.
Kyo (XIII) - Also no bad matchups, good at everything, needs corner more than Karate does.
Kyo (EX) - Very strong normals, safe pressure, auto guard bullshit.
Kim - Safe as hell, fast as hell, strong as hell.
Iori (EX) - Every tool, he’s goddamn Iori.
Duo Lon - Fast fast fast, scary mixups. Hope you like blocking.
Billy - Amazing normals, safe pressure, good meter building and cost-effective combos.
Robert - Every tool in the game, meterless, so why not?
Andy - See Robert, but without grab and with higher damage.
Hwa - Like Kim until he gets a drink in him, then he’s like Mr. Karate + Takuma combined.
**
Honourable Mentions:**
Kensou
Ralf
King
Athena
Mature
Top 10 Anchors:
Characters who have many tools and extremely high damage potential with high resources.
Hwa - Stupid damage, can start 800+ damage combos (non-HD) from any hit, and lands hits well
Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything, and now with high damage!
Benimaru - Throw combos, rekkas, zoning, crossups, he has it all.
Takuma - Touch of death. The end.
Goro - Grab touch of near death. The end is near.
Shen - Don’t jump! Don’t not jump! Don’t get hit! At all!
Saiki - Good zoning and defensive tools; insanely strong HD combo in the corner.
Iori (EX) - Every tool needed to get into HD mode.
Kyo (XIII) - Like EX Iori minus without grab > HD.
Iori (Claw) - Great pressure, great mixups, great damage. Lacks zoning tools.
Honourable Mentions:
Yuri
Chin
Leona
Kim
Elisabeth
Top 10 1 Meter and/or 1 Drive Potential (Ideal Middle Characters):
This is essentially an assessment of a character’s EX and Drive Cancel usefulness alongside their tools with low to medium resources.
Hwa - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen invulnerable shoryu?
Takuma - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen meterless grab?
Mr. Karate - Have you been paying attention so far?
Benimaru - Every tool needed to land big damage without HD.
Chin - Drunk combos are scary, very strong defense and tricky offense.
Kyo (XIII) - Doesn’t really need meter but can use it to increase his already great damage.
Joe - 1 drive and 1 meter gives him access to ridiculous combo potential in the corner.
Yuri - With meter and drive her offense, defense and combo potential all skyrocket.
Goro - Meter and drive allow him to turn his grabs into amazing damage. Gains an overhead.
Iori (Claw) - High damage mid-screen and even higher damage in the corner.
**
Honourable Mentions:**
Billy
Shen
Iori (EX)
Terry
K’
This is a well thought-out tier list of the entire cast based on which position on the team that they are most effective in, how their gameplay changes based on the amount of meter/drive they have and how they compare to one another in the team placement scenario. The tier list was mainly done by Sami (t3h mAsTarOth…!) and Matt Alder over the course of roughly the last 6 months."
Disagree quite a bit with it. Claw Iori is S BEING LAST because he is very meter heavy to get those 500+ combos. If anything I would put him A+/A/S in terms of where he should go. EX Iori is not S last, he’s probably S/A/A+ in that order. Takuma has the best 50% drive/1 bar combo because he does 600 damage with that much meter. I think Kyo(XIII) is second behind him following a Drunk Hwa and then probably K.’
Also, Ralf low tier with Clark? HA! No way in Hell. If Ralf had his Bomber from KOF 98, he would easy be top tier because he would have a DP option. He also has some of the best normals in the game and a command move that is + frame advantage on block. Clark has crazy mixup and he is not low neither.
EX Kyo is NOT top tier’d in terms of characters. He has some good matchups against Saiki and Ash, but he is ASS against good sweep characters or just good low hitting normals(since they beat autoguard). He’s B+ or A at best, Normal Kyo runs trains around the character.
Ok so, I am about to redesign my list a little bit because of recent discovs by not just myself, but the community in terms of combos and whatnot and who I think may be the best character on the game if He is played at the highest potential(which eventually I think he will but thank you learning curve and familiarity).
Why don’t we see what you have now according to DC’s format…?! This is what most of us came up with:
FORMAT
The Character = Starter/Battery/Anchor
Grade System:
S = Best
A+ = Exceptional
A = Proficient
B+ = Decent but needs serious help
[SIZE=4]B = Turbulent [/SIZE]
The current character tier placement on each team positions are, as follows:
King = A / S / S
Yuri = A+ / S / S
Duo Lon = A+ / B+ / B
Leona = A / A / A+
Shen = A / A+ / S
Mature = A+ / A+ / A+
Mai = B+ / S / A
Terry = B / A+ / A
Claw Iori = B+ / A / S
Regular Kyo = A+ / S / S
If there are in discrepencies please address them and provide additional info on the said character (I got a feeling I’m going to hear more about Claw Iori, Leona, Terry, and Duo Lon later on during this discussion - it will be a good thing if that is the case either way; the more we know, the better!)
[SIZE=3](The reason why Regular Kyo is on the list is because I am going present a showcase Kyo’s tier place based on Havatchu’s format once again - please stand by for more information.) [/SIZE]
My next target is Kyo Kusanagi!
Starter:
Mid High tier - Kyo has everything a man (or woman) could want in a fighting game such as this. A nice standard character. A ground-based projectile to help him zone. His EX HCB+K is a one frame command grab! Kyo has several SWEET anti-air options and he can EASY benefit from punishing his opponent. Kyo can come up with quite a few frame traps with his QCF+B or C if he corners his opponents and he is safe for the most part after the fact. In this position, the player can play any way he/she wants to: If you using a zoning, keep-away, and nice normal game, playing it as safe as possible(Kyo/Mai/Saiki … Kyo/Takuma/Ash… woooo… ya’ll get the idea) - or you can play with nice dirty mix-ups and rush down with Kyo being the leading man (Kyo/Andy/Shen or Kyo/Yuri/Claw Iori) -I’m positive that you guys came up with some nasty thoughts about brutally annihilating your opponents, especially with Kyo on your team. Kyo does well with three meters but he can zap far too quickly if the player chooses to use more damaging combos - what will be left for the battery character, though? Kyo’s meterless combos can help him get the job done. Kyo fits pretty well in this position. Basic BnB’s include: (corner) st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+A for 304 dmg… or cr. B, cr. A, df+D (1), qcf+D~D, hcb+K for 245 dmg - just to give you insight… the latter combo is sort of mandatory to know.
Battery:
[FONT=times new roman]High tier - Kyo does have a choice - He HAS to be high tier in this position. It’s guaranteed. Four meters can get you REALLY REALLY… REALLY… REEEEEEALLY far with someone like Kyo. But… ya’ll still need to be careful about your meter usage (unless the third character happens to be Shen… or Betty… or Athena… or anyone with good meter-less combos and comeback potential). So many good things to say here - Like… this? st. C, dp+C (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcb hcf+AC for 500 dmg damage and two stocks plus one guage? Hmph, why not? Or the player can steamrole the shit out of the opponent in the corner with this: st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+C (1), (DC) hcb+K for 422 dmg … and just two drives! NONE of Kyo’s reversal moves are safe so the player will have to make the best reads as possible, otherwise the player can always stick to zoning them out with safe poking them to death, CVS2 style. After all, Kyo has the tools to do so - Kyo’s df.D and his st.D are pretty good pokes (Kyo’s st.D makes him immune to some ground-based moves momentarily). The EX DM… Orochinagi has one two (three?) frames with of start up, so it is fast, has good range… and… the air version is good for more corner juggles. Also, RDP+C has a slight invincibility start-up. The EX version of this move lasts longer and this is good for punishing mid-air opponents (you can super cancel into the air Orochinagi as well and laugh about it while you’re at it). [/FONT]
Anchor:
High tier - Guaranteed. Pretty much for the same reasons stated in the the battery paragraph - many of Kyo’s better combos and corner juggles need to have him launch the opponent into the air. You can still play defensively if the opponent becomes desperately aggressive - you should have some meter (Kula, Athena, or things like Andy can help Kyo with that) to do some Guard Cancels… then hit confirm into an 685 damage HD combo, like this one - s.C, df+D (2), [BC] s.C, df+D (1), qcf+D, hcb+K, (HDC) dp+A, (HDC) qcf+D, (wait) rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A, (HDC) qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+C, (HDC) qcf~qcf+AC … a.k.a, a nice two stock HD combo at that. Kyo’s Neo Max is COMPLETELY unsafe on gaurd (I wonder why a lot of online players can’t comprehend this…) and any decent player is guaranteed to not to fall for it. But, hey! Kyo is EXTREMELY good with punishing opponents for any mistake they make! Nice and practical. The player can use this to their advantage to set some really good, high damaging punish combos.
Should you desire a little more insight please report here:
Thats a pretty bad combo, no reason to spend the extra drive. Just do : st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcb,hcf+A, hcb+K for about the same damage and 1bar1drive 
(and as i mentioned in the kyo thread, his commandgrab is not 1f)
Sorry. You said 4f on Kyo’s EX HCB+K. As for the combo notations, I was only providing examples of Kyo’s HD combo’s, in spite of them not being practical. Only for the sake of show casing what Kyo CAN do… Thanks for clearing up lose ends on the Kyo forum. I’ll make the following corrections in due time and post better combo for high damage (and low risk of wasting meter of course).
K’?
I tink raiden takes home the award for best 1 bar 1 drive combo by a pretty big margain heh. Also im pretty sure Hwa is 600+, especially if you are in the corner wich you have to be for takuma to get triple caddilac into super. And chin is not far behind either with 570 from cl.C ^^
Nah. Ryo can most likely be the best character on the game if played a the highest level. There are good Ryo’s now like Fox and Reynald’s Ryo isn’t too shabby neither. However, Ryo played at the best of his abilities can easily beat every character on the game.
is there any tiers lists out atm ? can anyone link me to one ?
Check this link from Dreamcancel : http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1908.msg57377#msg57377
Now that I have a little time I am going to go over the Dream Cancel tier list and give my thoughts on what I don’t agree with. This isn’t a royal bashing party, merely what I personally do not find accurate but my opinion could be off.
S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro
A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen
A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature
B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry
B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima
Things that instantly jump out:
Clark: I have no idea how Clark is ranked in the bottom tier, this is the only one of the bunch that makes absolutely 0 sense to me at all. They guy may not be everything in the kitchen sink, but he is for sure nasty and needs some respect. His mixup game is sick off of his command grab with his ambigous rolls and what not… his mixups are layered too. So it is initially a left/righ where he can go LOW or GRAB. If you block the low he can canel it into his grab… so if you initially guessed right you still might be guessing.
Goro: I love Goro, I have always considered him underrated. That being said, I don’t think he should be mentioned with he other characters in the top tier. The guy has some nasty matchups that lower his value at a tourney level imo, still a great character and I dont think A+ is too farfetch’d for him.
Minor things that jump out:
Ralf: I have been playing Ralf for a little while now and I dont think he is on Maxima and Mai’s level of bad. Sure he has his issues, but he is a great point character and doesn’t need meter to do damage. It may take him a little longer to land that first hit, but when he does it is going to hurt and he will BE ON DAT ASS. He will widdle down your guard meter with his frame traps and force you to make a decision (sometimes a bad one) and when it happens more damage. Momentum is his game. I think he is at least B+ (actually B+ seems about right for him)
Vice: Vice with meter has one of the craziest neutrals in the game by being able to convert off of pretty much any hit anywhere. She doesn’t do amazing damage, but she can get 3 or 4 conversions off the most retarded confirms which equal 2 or so of someone elses in a much harder to get confirm. Caked out, you don’t have to worry about high/low/grab with her you need to worry about getting hit PERIOD. Should be higher imo, at least 1 tier up.
Kensou: Massively underrated, I think he should be in the A+ area. He has a great fireball/dp game that is very street fighter esque and some of the most annoying corner pressure. He is a character you need to play patient against but he makes players do really stupid things.
Takuma: He seems a bit high to me, I for sure think he is a monster, especially on the ground. But he has issues with people who like to jump on him and in KOF13 the air is a huge part of it due to normals being relatively weaker AA’s compared to the games past. His command grab game is still among the best though so I think he should be A+.
Duo Lon: People need to give Mad KOF more credit, he made Duo look a lot better than he actually is. I think he made a statement that Duo isn’t as bad as people initially thought, but Duo Lon’s at evo got away with a lot more than they should. I still think he is a very solid point with a unorthodox neutral, but it still doesn’t take away that his damage isnt great for the meter he has to waste to make it decent and that a lot of his stuff is unsafe. Not bottom tier but B+ area.
Saiki: I firmly believe when Saiki is on top of his game he is the most frustrating thing to try and take on. I think he deserves to be up with the top tier.
Ryo: I am with Nagato on this one and think Ryo is really underrated, he has all the tools in the game to be excellent and when played at top notch there isn’t anything he can’t take on almost. I dont agree he might be #1 and I don’t actually think he is S tier material but rather A+ Tier. Getting hit with that overhead into super is one of the most frustrating things lol.
THe list itself is pretty good and I agree with a lot of it. Honestly the real only head scratcher is Clark to me.
Clark I would definitely place higher. He has good footsies and if he’s just within mid-range he can easily put you in a 50/50 situation: You jump you run the risk of getting air grabbed or getting nailed with Gatlin’ (Which is a good AA). If you stand still, he can use SAB which leads to hard knock down and he can put you in another 50/50 where you need to guess what he’s going to do.
Goro is good but he really needs to use meter to overcome bad matchups. The way Kauro used him was basically using EX roll to get through any kind of fireball zoning and land his grab. And rush them and use mindgames. He’s definitely good but he requires good reading to use.
Ralf’s pressure game is amazingly good. Lacks everything else essentially.
Ryo I’ve always thought was the best shoto character. Very fast invincible SRK with fast recovery, great fireball pressure that’s almost completely safe and you cannot use GCR to punish him very well because of that recovery and he can bait you to waste meter like that. He does good damage, easy 25% guard damage, plus he’s got parries…
That Dream Cancel tier list did not make that much sense to me either. (What the hell is Clark AND Ralf doing down there anyway? They are MUCH better than that! And, Ryo, Mai, and ESPECIALLY King shouldn’t even be that low either)! Most of us agree with the top tiers but every other character completely debatable! Regardless, now we are going to talk about Saiki!
And, this is the part where I happily explain why everyone else should think so too.
Starter: High Tier. One of the best zoners in the game besides Athena and Joe. Seriously. The best projectile in the game: The Kiyoku no Tsuki projectile (the A version) travels at a medium speed so it is possible for Saiki to conduct a follow up after the projectile should he have a enough time… Saiki has a lot anti-air options as well. The C version of his Kiyoku can be treated as a anti-air, his DP, his Washiba Otoshi DM, and his cr.C. Saiki’s D version DP has a follow-up. At three stocks and some drive meter, Saiki can batter the opponent violently thanks zoning and his teleport. Saiki can also apply some serious corner pressure (He has a air-target combo which is j.A > f.B) Saiki’s B Donkey Kick is quick but the D version allow him to teleport without the use of meter. A meter-less combo’s for Saiki would be like cr. B, cr. B, cr. B > qcb + B or Hop D, cl. C or D > qcb + D HOLD C > dp + B… A good meter-less corner combo for about 336 damage would be to start off with the air target combo (j.A > f.B) then press cl. C > qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B (land) dp + D HOLD D. This way you can catch your opponent off guard and build meter while conducting some good damage - part of the reason why he should be high tier. Saiki would probably fit best in this position.
Battery: High Tier. For the same reasons mentioned above. You notice that Saiki has very good DM’s, all of which can serve a specific purpose: Washiba Otoshi is a anti-air. Yami Otoshi is a air DM that can follow the opponent and goomba-stomp them. Saiki also has a projectile DM (that does not seem to let the opponent guard cancel until the very last hit because the hits registers so quickly while the opponent guards the move). Last, Saiki has another DM which is a command grab. Saiki also has a decent Neo Max, but it would not be a good idea to use it by itself and use it in a combo instead. It is possible to do over 1000 damage with his HD combo, the second reason why he is noteworthy in this game. For three meters, you can do this for 1006 j.D, s.D, (HD) s.D, qcb+D~C, dp+B, (HDC), qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, qcb+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, dp+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air qcf~qcf+B, (HDC) Neomax (THIS IS A CORNER COMBO EXAMPLE). For one stock Saiki can do a h[SIZE=4][FONT=times new roman]opping D into cl. C > qcb + D HOLD C, qcf(x2) + B or D for 377 damage or use his air target combo into [/FONT][/SIZE]cl. C > qcb + BD HOLD D, air b+B, qcf + A, dp + D HOLD D for 426 as a good corner combo. Saiki has a lot of good combo opportunities from both the mid-screen and in the corner. Saiki’s moves can fit into a huge variety of situations, but he is still recommended for first position while battery’s like Andy, Kyo, Yuri, Mai or things like Kensou can do a magnificent job in the battery position.
Anchor: High Mid Tier. Saiki’s special moves aren’t exactly safe here and as I said before, he really needs reliability on his zoning to smack his opponent around. The reason why he is lowered in this particular position is because he has no characters to back him up. This is going to happen to a lot of characters in this position save for about eight or nine others that may do well in this position Shen and (Claw) Iori nod their head at you as you walk by…
Saiki special moves are going to require good timing so that he can keep himself safe (because he is unsafe after most of them anyhow). Saiki’s A version Kiyoku has a very nice and beautiful hit box so PLEASE don’t hesitate to use it when necessary. You can also keep yourself from getting anti-airs by using f.B in mid-air to stop yourself and put yourself on the ground. A nice tool for mix-ups, mind games, and valuable set-ups. While five stock meters are not particularly a bad idea for Saiki, he is still the last character - should you still intend to use HD combo’s here is a good one for 963 damage… start off with his air target combo and then cl. C (HD) cl. C > (qcb + D~D, air b+B, dp + B, HDC, qcf + C)x2, qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B, dp + D (HDC) qcb + D HOLD D, air qcf(x2) B or D (MAX CANCEL) qcb hcf + AC for a nice finisher. Saiki is still recommended for first position.
That Dream Cancel one is what Havatchu presented on the last page. This the tier list I made from the same guidelines but based on the information that we have discovered and spoke about:
King = A / S / S
Yuri = A+ / S / S
Duo Lon = A+ / B+ / B
Leona = A / A / A+
Shen = A / A+ / S
Mature = A+ / A+ / A+
Mai = B+ / S / A
Terry = B / A+ / A
Claw Iori = B+ / A / S
Regular Kyo = A+ / S / S
After a week or so there been a change of opinion:
Leona is now this: = A / A+ / A+ (She can basically get away with the same thing in her battery position as she could in her anchor position).
Claw Iori is now this: = A / A+ / S (Claw DOES have good meter-less combo’s and his EX HCB - K goes through a lot of projectiles and he still has a nice option select command throw after a jump-in and does a lot of damage - Iori’s BnB’s are rather simple much like King’s are and he can get some very good resets off of his own combos as well for continuity purposes. He has a very nice Neo Max as well.
Mai is now this = B / S / A+ (Mai’s would only be playing keep-away and using punish BnB’s in the first position unless the match up is in her own favor. While in the battery and anchor she can get away with a lot more and she is far scarier in the last two positions. With meter, her EX moves will set the opponent up for juggle and they are rather simple to hit confirm into as her normals have ludicrous priority).
Mature is now this = A+ / S / A+ (Mature has a very large set of moves for many situations. She fits in very good in the battery position as well because she has a back-up character, she can be played in many ways, and… her hit confirms are RIDICULOUS. Her attacks are also easy to conduct a follow up after and she has many options after most of her attacks and very good resets).
Everything else remains the same.
Added Saiki:
Saiki = S / S / A
Betty = A+ / A+ / +
Betty will be elaborated on in the near future.
Cafe ID interview, the list their top 5 and bottom 5
http://dreamcancel.com/2012/07/21/dream-cancel-interviews-cafeid-kofxiii-players/
I agree with Robert, Ash and Mai being relatively weak.
Robert being weak is some serious bullshit. Robert has everything. Every tool you could possibly want on a character.
Hitconfirms out the ass both high and low.
Command crossup that can also be used for ultra speed like Iori/Kyo/Athena.
Wall jump.
Fireballs.
DPs.
Air and ground divekicks.
Command grabs.
I saw that shit last night and loled. Loaded up Robert in practice mode with the goal of finding a good 1 meter 1 drive. Got 445 damage out of him in the first 5 minutes. There’s better damage out there but with the amount of tools Robert has it’s a small price to pay. At the very least he’s a great point.
Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I’m not putting much stock in their “Robert is shit” analysis.