I personally feel the #2 slot is the most homogenized out of the three positions. You can put just about any character there and they work. It is more based on match ups. I feel the spots where characters run into the most trouble are either on point or anchor. On point you need to be able to do a lot with a little and some characters really need to have a decent amount of meter stocked to bring them to full strength. Also on point a lot of character flaws are harder to exploit because of the lack of resources so characters like Clark for instance can get away with more than they would expect to later on in the order.
On anchor you either need to be able to do huge quantities of damage fast or you need to be able to slow down the common anchors. In my tier I put the characters most likely to come back on you in the top level as these are the characters who can produce large amounts of sustained damage fast to perform a reverse OCV. The second level is more characters that are great for close games when it comes down to anchor vs anchor. They either have good ways to get hits and end rounds quick or have obnoxious tools that get better as each character gets less health.
Even on the list I show I think in most of those cases you can still make even the ones I rate lower work. IMO no character is completely worthless.
maxima as a top tier point is something i’ve never heard of. without the threats of ex dp+k, ex vapour cannon combos or the ability to drive cancel his grab into bigger damage, he is hard to make good use of. to make matters worse, he would match up unfavourably against other common points like king, duo lon, and billy. even though he matches up (really) poorly against other anchors too, at least meter allows the player enough options to fill in his gaps. i’m not aware of any players who have used maxima as a point character.
but truth be told i’ve probably been using him wrong this whole time anyway so yeah
I agree! It’s not easy to control space in XIII, so the characters that can do so well should be rated higher. This is actually the crux of my doubts about Takuma, whose space control is considerably worse than claw, the kyos, vice, and Shen.
Your tier lists based on position are useful for sure, although an overall tier list has its merits too. I’ve got a lot of questions about the ones you posted, but they’re good to have for discussion.
A few questions;
I thought you could only juggle zanretsuken in the corner, meaning it’s not a true “anywhere juggle.” Can he juggle midscreen?
what’s good about his frametrap game? With those stubby normals, seems to me that his frametrap ability is average at best.
like I said above, you’ve talked me into seeing how they could both be high-mid.
Anywhere juggle is just a generic term for “juggles off of anything” He has situational mid screen juggles, but the other thing is he can also carry to the corner pretty well if he gets a counter hit CD (not uncommon I might add). Even if it is just CD > CD to get to the corner and quickly get the EX.
His normals are only a problem in the neutral game, when Takuma is inside his normals are just as good as you need. c.LK has good range for a c.LK, low jump arc makes AAing hard to do, and a good command grab prevents you from simply blocking all the time.
It’s one of those things till you have really played a high level Takuma, the character doesn’t seem all that difficult to fight against, but when you are playing against a great one the character is a freaking nightmare! He can run through entire teams if you let him get momentum. He is a character who has one of the highest comeback potentials which is why I rate him highly.
What is your guy’s opinion on the top 10 best characters in the game as of 2014? Has the game been almost pretty much figured out
by now? Been awhile since i played (quarter 2 2013) and wanted to know if it has moved around by now.
Top 10 is a little hard. Mr. K is the only character people agree is a unanimous #1. Outside of that you can argue Kim, EX Iori, and maybe Hwa or EX Kyo. Once you get past there the cast sort of homogenizes.
A stab at top 10ish list (grouped by tiers, no order within the tiers)
Mr. Karate
Kim
EX Iori
Shen
Iori
EX Kyo
Chin
Vice
Takuma
Benimaru
Hwa
Kyo
I would argue these dozen characters pretty much dominate the game. Best in the game? I’d say Kim is tops, with Karate and EX Iori close behind. I’d put Kim above Karate just because it’s harder to keep Kim out than Karate and IMO Kim’s neutral game is more oppressive than Karate’s.
I’d say there’s been some movement in the last year. I think Kim overtook Mr. K as number one, and I think EX Kyo, Takuma, and Vice have seen an increase in presence. I’d also say Hwa and Kyo have trended downward (and so has claw Iori, to a lesser extent). I thought Benimaru would see a big jump in usage, but it hasn’t really happened.
Of the mid and low-tiered characters, nobody’s really distinguished themselves too much from the pack. Does anybody think otherwise?
Well Beni might appeal to those who are into…flamboyant characters let’s say. He does have an interesting playstyle. Mr. Karate though…playstyle wise or aesthetic wise, I don’t think anyone would play him he wasn’t so powerful.
I honestly think Claw is a little lower in the list. Still not bad, but people have figured out how to play against him. I would honestly put Beni in the top 6 characters because the number of tools and his versatility in team order allows you to be flexible with how you use him.
My tiers weren’t ordered, but I would mostly agree with what you said. Beni may very well be the best character of that second tier - his oki isn’t quite as abusive as the top-tier characters and he isn’t as versatile with his midscreen damage, but his neutral game is as good or better than the top-tier characters.
I have less experience with claw Iori than anybody in the second tier, with the possible exception of EX Kyo. Though he may have slipped somewhat from his early usage/rating, as an anchor I think he’s as versatile or more versatile than anybody in the second tier (except maybe Vice). I guess my point is, he’s still aged better than Kyo and Hwa, whose limitations have been exposed IMO.
Do you see anybody standing out from the “rest of the pack” characters? I kinda forgot about Yuri, who you could make a good argument belongs in the second tier. I think she’s easier to keep out than the best rushdown characters, but she still has a really good mixup and does good damage. Other than that, I think Elizabeth, Duo Lon, and K’ have good potential to stand above the rest. Liz and K’ require more work than the higher-tiered characters, but their tools and damage are good enough to compete IMO. Duo Lon’s pretty handicapped by his inability to do damage, but his space control is pretty unique, and his mixup game still gives people a lot of problems.
Liz I would still put pretty low, but of course not saying she is bad. Her problem is that she does a lot of work for not always a ton of damage. K’ to me feels like a one trick pony. He’s probably one of the most one dimensional characters in the game.
Duo though is easily near the top. As a point or 2nd character he is absolutely dangerous. He isn’t a character who will do a lot of damage quickly because of his low damage output, but man is it hard to pin him down and actually get a hit on him. He’s probably one of the best at keeping a lead in the entire game. He’s also really meter efficient.
Here is how I personally would do the first couple tiers based on overall versatility.
Put them anywhere in any situation
Mr.K, EX Iori, Kim, Benimaru, Hwa
Has problem match ups or positions, but overall still really good and can play multiple roles
Shen, King, Yuri, Duo Long, EX Kyo, Kyo, Athena, Takuma, Ryo, Sakai, Ash, Chin, Vice
All the other characters IMO start to fall into roles of “specialist” where the roles they can take on a team are limited, but they still perform those roles well. For instance Joe is still really good, but it’s hard to put him anywhere besides #2 on a team because he needs the meter for the stun combo and also he doesn’t make the best anchor. Mai makes a very good anchor, Mature is an awesome point character, etc.
Overall no character is unusable, but where the tops make their mark is that there isn’t a bad spot to put them. They can play any match up and play any position. They have good tools, high enough damage output to play anchor, and also can be meter efficient on point.
When I see Liz players, I’m always impressed how they seem to get damage off of such a wide variety of situations. She has to to hustle, but for lower-tier characters, the test for me is how they stack up against the tops. The best Liz players can definitely hang with the top-tier characters.
Why do you see K’ as one-dimensional? His normals are pretty good, and everything he does pushes you to the corner, where his damage is really scary. Eins trigger is an annoying neutral tool that helps him in his goal to corner his opponents. He has his weaknesses (meter-dependent, not as safe as the top tiers), but he again seems like he can hang with the top-tier characters.
I think what makes the top characters top is that they have really oppressive neutral tools. Kim has probably the best footsies in the game and his oki mixup is a nightmare. It’s very hard to react to Karate’s pressure, and he can convert his DM/SDM off of a million different situations. EX Iori might have the best oki in the game, and controls space very well with his normals and rekkas. Shen can punish and convert damage off of a ton of situations, and his pressure is tough to react to as well. The common thread IMO is versatility in terms of landing damage, not so much meter usage or team placement.
Also, do you think Hwa is as versatile as the others in your top tier? Always viewed him as meter dependent, point Hwa wouldn’t be a great look IMO. I think Yuri is more versatile than Hwa, but it would be weird to put her in the top group just because she isn’t as good as those other characters.
