KoF13 Tier List Discussion

Classic Fighting Games King of Fighters XIII
201

Robert meets or exceeds all of those.

1 meter:
[LIST]
[]cl.C, f.B, f.A [db]~f+BD, dp+C does around 340-50 Damage (does 390~ w/ jump-in)
[/LIST]
1+1:
[LIST]
[](~30-45% screen from corner) cl.C f.B f.A dp+A (DC) qcf+P, db~f+BD, (optional) qcf+A, dp+C (461 / 425 dmg)
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[](in or near corner) cl.C f.B f.A dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, qcf+P, dp+C (436 dmg)
[/LIST]
[LIST]
* cl.C f.B f.A dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, db~f+D (400 dmg)
[/LIST]
2+1:
[LIST]
[]cl.C f.B dp+C (DC) qcb+D, qcf,hcb+AC (530+ dmg)
[/LIST]
[LIST]
* cl.C, f.B, dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, [db]~f+BD, qcf+A, dp+C (525 dmg)
[/LIST]
2+HD:
[LIST]
* cl.C f.B (HD) cl.C f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+A (DC) qcf+A, db~f+D (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, DP+C (DC) qcf,hcb+BD (814 dmg)
* cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC),qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, fbf+K (840 dmg)
[/LIST]
3+HD
[LIST]
* cl.C f.B (HD) cl.C f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+A (DC) qcf+A, [db]~f+D (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) fbf+BD (DC) qcfhcb+BD (878 dmg)
[/LIST]
[LIST]
* cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, qcf+A, fbf+BD, dp+A (899 dmg)
[/LIST]
And for shiggles…

4+HD
[LIST]
* cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC), qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, qcf+A, qcfhcb+AC (970+ dmg)
[/LIST]

202

haha i guess numbers dont lie. i guess i just think of him that way, as a character that tends to not do damage. i.e., they have a weak mixup game in this case. for example, i consider mature a ‘weak damage’ character even though she does like 400+ with 1 drive 1 super…the damage is there, but getting it is another story. robert is a really weird case since all the tools are there…hes got a good cross up, a command grab, etc. it all comes down to ‘how are you going to hit the other guy’. in this case, robert’s cross up is slow because of his jump arc. his command grab, even ex has start up, small range, and no invincibility. you can look at any of the characters above him and see that most of them just have better offensive options.

btw that 1 meter combo wont work on crouchers and those midscreen hd combos dont work from just anywhere, its very possible to not reach the corner by the time you do the charge b,f+d to divekick which lowers the damage a lot. theres also a spot in the middle of the stage where you will reach the corner too early, but be too far to do the corner combo and you have to change it there too, a lot of liabilities for doing his hd midscreen. this has reminded me how fun his combos are though, i might use him more in the future

203

I’m well aware of these things. I just wanted to correct the notion that Robert can’t do damage when he lands a hit. With good awareness of where you are on the stage, and by choosing the optimum combo, Robert does a truckload of damage. After getting used to him, I’ve never once dropped an HD because I chose the wrong combo for my location. It’s true, he doesn’t have that kind of ridiculous pressure that characters like Kyo or Iori can bring, but he’s a veritable wall if he manages to corner you. His really good j.CD and j.D, unhoppable fireball, good DP, command grab that leads to safejump, and ability to move around very quickly and easily by using the backdash + crossup all make it really tough to escape from the corner when he has you there. Hitting people with supercancel ranbu on-reaction when they roll a fireball feels real good too, haha… Mid-screen he can dance around a lot of characters with his souped up backdash, getting in a lot of free fireball hits if they should hop in and misjudge the range which can potentially lead into [db]~f+K followup, or dp if they jump expecting the fireball. On j.CD counter-hits he can follow up with a full HD combo utilizing bypassed j.qcb+BD, or just get em with bypassed NeoMAX.

204

Haven’t played in so long, forgot how godlike this game was. A friend came over wanting to play umvc3 and then saw that I had KoF13 “and said he was good at 98 and never played XIII.” So we played with one rule " I couldn’t use drive cancel combos cause he never learned them." He had solid fundamentals and it became obvious he wasn’t lying when he said he was good at 98. Lol
Good matches… best one was the last one with the double k.o… ahh yes, time to start hitting the training mode again, missed this game.
Ps: K’ team theme is hype…
Elizabeth, Yuri, Kyo or Ex Iori is da team<3

205

Hey guys, I’m getting back into this game and trying to get a better handle on the cast. How would you rate these characters?

B: Duolon, Chin, Andy, Kensou, Mature, Ralf, Clark, K’, Daimon, Robert, Billy, Ash
C: Joe, Leona, Terry, Athena, Maxima, Mai, Ryo, Raiden, Liz, Kula

The top 14 characters I have a pretty good feel for, but these I don’t. Feel free to break these 22 characters into sub-tiers or whatever, I’d just like to hear some opinions of how to assess these characters.

206

Here is david kong’s tier list from dreamcancel:

http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=m9kbdtfa6kcfaqlbaeqqj4lgg6&topic=1908.375

It’s a good list to discuss IMO. My thoughts, based on my (very) limited knowledge:

  • I generally agree with the top tier. Hwa and Beni aren’t quite as prevalent among tournament-winning teams as Mr. K and EX Iori, but I’m ok with them being where they are.

  • I do disagree, however, with King, Yuri, and Takuma in mid-high tier. In short, I don’t think Yuri and Takuma are as good as the other members of this tier in the neutral game, and King simply does not have the damage-dealing ability of characters like claw, the Kyos, Chin, and Shen.

  • Mid-tier and below I have some disagreements with, but also concede that these characters are less known than characters in the top and high tiers. Here’s a summary:

rated too low: Vice (can land her HD off of more situations than any character in the game, pretty good neutral), Elizabeth (too well-rounded to be in bottom tier)

rated too high: Andy (has a lot of gimmicks, but is basically a zoner, and he’s not nearly as good as Saiki at that game)

207

I know this post is a little old, but just had to make a comment. Takuma IMO is a character who can be one of the biggest threats on a team. He is one of the few characters who scares the living crap out of me when I play against him because a single mess up will most likely cost my character.

208

Comments are appreciated. Could you elaborate a bit? At a very high level, at least?

I know what kind of damage Takuma is capable of, but his lack of defensive tools means he has to constantly be on the offensive to inflict his damage. Do you think he’s that hard to keep out?

209

Takuma can kill with 1 meter 1 drive - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCPLueiq50&feature=player_embedded

He doesn’t have to spend the same kinds of resources as others to deliver damage. He can kill a character from full on the first round off a frametrap. His defense sucks relative to some characters, but his offense is straight up insane. Not only is he hard to keep out, he can play the ranged game just fine with fireballs and has invincible startup DMs to deal with jumpins and other things. His hop is low as shit, his air CD activates 2 frames faster than Karate’s making it arguably the best air CD in the game and he has a comboable command grab. The character is a beast. Karate’s way better defensively and maybe better rounded, but Takuma at a certain level of play/mastery is unmatched for damage.

210

He lacks wake up tools, but defense no. He can slow down most common pressure. Stupid jumps can be supered, he still has a great jump CD, etc. You aren’t going to just go ham on a Takuma.

No character in this game has a horrible defense to the point where they can’t do anything.

The problem is he is hard enough to keep out that he can still gain hits and he only needs one solid hit to destroy a character. For how little meter he needs he can basically run through characters if he gets momentum. He scares me more than characters like Claw Iori, Hwa, etc because of how fast he can build back the critical meter needs to run through the next character.

211

I guess I should’ve qualified what I said with “relative to the other characters in mid-high tier.” Here’s who I agree with David Kong is in the mid-high tier:

A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, Chin, Shen Woo

(I would add Vice to this tier.)

I respect Takuma, but don’t rank him as high as these six characters. Yet.

Does Takuma’s efficiency in doing damage make up for the fact that it’s harder for him to score hits compared to the other characters in this tier? I think Claw, the Kyos, and Shen are just so much better at getting big damage, from their defense as well as their offense. Their pressure is just as good, if not scarier than Takuma’s, so I just can’t see how his better efficiency overcomes that. Correct me if you think otherwise.

Takuma is closer to Chin and Vice, for sure, because, like Takuma, both Chin and Vice have sizeable holes in their games. Whether you tier them the same or differently depends on how highly you think of their respective strengths. I’d be curious to hear if you think Takuma is better, worse, or the same as those two. I currently peg him just behind, because both Chin and Vice can convert damage off of a much wider range of circumstances (from all over the screen) than Takuma, despite the fact that they aren’t as efficient at it (and their pressure isn’t as good).

about Takuma’s ranged game: His fireball is ok, but it’s hard for him to use it to gain a significant advantage. Isn’t his only invincible DM the slow, 11-frame start-up C ranbu? That’s a good move against normal/high jumps, but it seems hard to consistently use to deter people from hopping in on Takuma. He can use j.CD, but that leaves him open to quick anti-airs, and trip-guard punishes when he lands.

My point wasn’t that he was totally defenseless. I was just saying that he is forced to go offensive more than the other mid-high tier characters, because a defensive Takuma is probably a dead Takuma. Pretty much every other character in that tier has enough neutral game tools (offensive and defensive) where they aren’t under as much pressure to always go in.

212

Takuma doesn’t really lack anything to stop him from opening people up. Like I said, his hop is very low so it’s less reactable than many characters. He can crossup with his air D and B fairly easily. He has hard knockdowns on his Ranbu and normal throw to set up oki, not to mention the best air CD in the game that on counterhit is practically gg. Command grab is comboable into near kills. His damage dealing is far superior to Claw, Kyo or Shen for the meter spent, but it’s more difficult execution-wise.

Regular Ranbu will beat the invicibility of EX Maiden Masher when performed at the same time (wtf?). It’s pretty a pretty godly answer to his defense holes even if it does cost a meter. To be honest, I’m glad he has to rely on meter for defense because God knows I don’t want him to have any for touch-of-deaths. That’s solved by placing him second or third.

I’m of the camp that there’s very few characters that suck. Some have less oki, mixup, defense, etc. than others, but every character has enough to work with to be beast in the right hands. Vice and Chin are excellent characters, but I still think Takuma is better. Vice can convert more due to the anywhere juggle on her EX sleeve, Chin has all sorts of mixup, parries and invincibility, but neither of those two can kill you for free. That’s what Takuma does, he kills you for practically free if he touches you. All characters have to spend in excess of 2-3 meters + full drive to kill you, Takuma doesn’t. That’s more meter for the characters after him to work with, or conversely it’s more meter for the character preceding him which is a problem.

I mentioned he needs meter for defense, but so do a lot of characters (Claw, Vice), but those characters can’t kill you without 3 meters and full drive. If they touch you with 1 meter 1 drive you might lose 500 hp but you won’t be dead. Takuma touches you and it’s gg.

C Ranbu is slower but if you want to stop hops you should be using stand A.

213

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-tr5l6l5l2t6h6l5lah6hai7f6m78ah84ah8sah6r2t7v2t9mah8z2tanaha02tbnaicnai896m966mb02udhajefajfaaig4aigzaihvajimak9z6mjhakk7akl1akb16lbw6kbz2ucx2udu2u-bk8-naGreat_Dark_HeroKOFXIII_2013

214

Mature at the top? How come?

215

She seems to play very well in many team positions. Her mix ups and frame traps (DP+P series) can be quite devastating - frame trap with DP+P, and the Punch follow up while towards the ground and then get the st.C after the fact to maintain pressure… st.C is one of Mature faster normal moves. Both of her DM’s are useful as well… Her ability to produce a lot of chip damage for defeating an opponent seems pretty potent as well. Mature can also a lot of roles on a team (then again, every character can do this depending on what applications the player might have).
http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php/Mature_(XIII)

(I might be overstating her abilities however - This might have something to do with her being strangely popular around where I live when I ranbats take place. Also, players such as JuiceboxKing solidified their own game play with them and even made a basic character tutorial on her so that others can get a good grasp on the said character -

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_Sz41G83M

Mature would probably be in line within the S tier instead with Shen and the others - Her HD combos for 2 bar or less are not particularly easy to perform, plus she would have to worry about damaging scaling, and she does not have any command normal move to speak of).

EDIT: This should be a little more sensible: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-tr5l6x5l2t6e6x5map6iap796x79ao8bao99ap6g2t7d2ta3ap872tb0ap942tbvaqckap876x966xa16xdbape2apewaofoangianhaanhzanaw6xiranjlankhanbx6xcu6x9z2tas2tbq2t-bk8-naGreat_Dark_Hero

216

Top tiers:

Mr. Karate (zero bad matchups, annoying fucking fireball, gdlk jCD, easy confirm into super for 400dmg, has an answer to everything and cannot be zoned), Beni, Chin, EX Kyo, Takuma, Yuri, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Iori.

Everyone else.

217

While I’m not the most knowledgeable about the game, there are more than just two tiers in KOF XIII. To say that Shen, Kyo and Vice are no better than the likes of Terry, Maxima, and Kensou is wrong.

218

I give you Vice and Shen but everyone else can basically do the same damage with HD mode and 2 bars. Everyone gets better with EX. It’s all matchup specific after Iori in the tier list.

The top tiers I mentioned because they can either do everything or just have massive damage at their disposal with very little use of meter and have no bad matchups.

219

It’s not all about damage, it’s about tools and ability to land that damage. And not only that, if a character like Kyo can do 35-40% damage without using any meter, that’s a significant advantage over the rest of the cast (damage efficiency/meter matters). It is wrong to say that just because everybody does hella damage when they have a lot of meter/HD, they are equally good.

I think you do have a point, in that for about 20 characters, we don’t really know yet how good they are compared to the rest of the cast. Even that is slowly being teased out though. For example, we now know that King, Ryo, Saiki, and Duo Lon are clearly not top tier characters, but they belong in a different tier than Terry, Mai, Kensou, Ash, etc.

Even among your top tier characters, it’s inaccurate to say they are all equally good, and it’s especially incorrect to say that they have no bad matchups. I would not equate, for example, Iori (claw), who can be zoned and is meter-hungry, to someone like Kim or Karate, who are much less meter dependent and have far more oppressive neutral games. EDIT: Holy shit, I just realized you excluded Kim from top tier. That’s worse than saying Shen is equal to Terry.

We went back and forth on Takuma earlier, and I’m definitely open to including him in high tier, but not top.

220

It’s not just about ability to land that damage, but also ability to prevent other characters from landing that damage. I think good defensive abilities are greatly underrated in this game.

Controling space is something I feel many mid-tier players overlook. For instance, sure King isn’t going to open you up fast, but at the same time you aren’t going to open her up fast. If she is sitting on meter she has a constant “No Fly Zone”. Leona is also really obnoxious to get a hit on.

IMO a better tier list than the usual tier list would be rating a character according to position on the team. Because some characters are more sensitive to team position than others, but it doesn’t make them worse than the other characters.

Takuma doesn’t really have an issue opening people up. That’s the thing. He has a good command grab, a good anywhere juggle to go with that j.CD, and a decent enough frame trap game to get you scared of hitting buttons. If you get cornered against Takuma any hit is going to result in some large damage.

I’ve played more than my share of legit Takuma’s including players like Renald. The character is a nightmare to defend against. Characters like Claw Iori I can usually take a hit or two unless Claw has a full HD and 3 bars, but Takuma can be sitting at part of a bar and some drive and make me fearful of getting hit.

There are literally 2 or 3 characters that any time they are out on the screen make me sweat. Takuma, Claw Iori, and Hwa

I wouldn’t put regular Kyo above Takuma any day if we were doing a standard tier list.