Bu bu but those are 2 out of 3 of the characters on my main team. Seriously though great post and discussion on Beni. He controls space incredibly well and is especially dangerous when he has you cornered but it’s the sum of his parts that make him really good. Although I’m not a high level player and haven’t been playing KOF seriously for very long I however play Benimaru in every KOF and his 13 incarnation is like his 97/98 self without the J. CD, Far C and spinneroni. From my experience he can be outspaced and he can be zoned out, specially if you bait out far D.
mmk can anyone help me out with explain how Shen is supposed to work and/or what am I supposed to do with him? I’ve been trying to use him (I want to have him as my anchor) for a bit but I feel lost with him, its like I have no gameplan if im outside the cl.C range ~___~
Also, anyone know where to get frame data for specials? the Wiki has the data for normals but last i checked specials/DMs/neomaxes were not there…
Also I will agree with others that Benni is really good scary good but not broken.
To Laban/Sparkster/Other really good KOF players:
What do you guys think of Kim? I see a lot of people using him besides MAD_KoF and I have been using him on/off since arcade. I feel like he’s a strong character and I have trouble playing against him and have trouble Executing when I play him. What are his exact weaknesses? He has safe blockstrings and a scary instant backdash qcb+D is -1 or 0 frame advantage if blocked and serves as an instant overhead while whiffing most low normals. I feel like he’s easily one of the top characters in the game, but maybe it’s me? Please share your thoughts, and actually anyone share your thoughts because I am really seeing him being played on the big stages a lot more soon.
It’s been a while since I touched Kim, but I think his dive is not an overhead. So please check it out again in the lab and tell me if I’m correct or not. His blockstrings could be safe, but if he wants to chip with something like qcb+B, he ends his momentum unless he wants to commit to something stupid like a flash kick frame trap (block and punish.) With him, I feel his main deal is like Hwa Jai’s. The player has to utilitize all his normals and string together his normals to make his pressure and spacing work.
So you have to take note of which normals aren’t that hot. Certain rapid chain cr.Bs can actually win against his Far D, for example. Far D has low body invul in the beginning but will eventually run out, and certain rapid chain cr.Bs can tap Kim outside of his reach. Kim’s st.B is a good defensive poke that covers both the ground and hop space, but isn’t really neutral or plus advantage on block (so he kinda ends his momentum there.) So on the ground, a good Kim will have to play a basic Rule of 2 game just to keep up momentum and frame advantage (cr.B, st.A, hop j.A.) So from there, he has to utilize his great air to air and air to ground game by using normals such as j.A (jump-in/cross-up/deep), j.C (SF Makoto’s Tsurugi/covers multiple spaces), j.D (fast, direct air-to-ground, both horizontal and vertical sweet spot), and j.CD (decent j.CD speed, air to air, could connect with an opponent air to ground for frame trap, difficult to contest.)
In this manner, it becomes a game where you have to out space Kim and play better footsies and “air spacing.” Along with that, it’s making sure you punish any and all gimmicks Kim has. Such as, punishing mid screen whiffed ff.A or punishing a whiffed corner ff.A by making sure you hit him as soon as he bounces off the wall with something like a cl.C. Gotta run forward cl.C/D his qcb+D on block because it’s not safe. Make sure that anything unsafe he does, just punish. It may be difficult doing so but with time it should come naturally. After that, it’s just pure understanding of mid/close range spacing with normals and out anticipating him. He doesn’t really have a chip game and he just loses momentum if he tries to do one.
oh his dive is not an overhead, but air qcb+D is, but you can buff it inside of a dash, so you can 2144D and it comes out the moment he leaves the ground, I checked it out in the lab(with dummy on guard1-jump) and he takes off either at the same time or about 1 or 2 frames aftwards, its hard to tell.
Also, thanks for the feedback on how to punish him. I think the problem I have with him is that j.C pressure in the corner, I guess with Iori I just have to s.C it? Everything else I tried got beat.
I’d try fast moves first or invul moves. Like the hitbox first starts above Kim and then comes down like an Axe in front of him. So you might want to use a fast move that can get in there before his foot comes down to cover his frontal space. So yeah I’d get balsy with Iori run forward cl.C or try to tip with Iori’s Far D in a situation where if Kim tried to hop forward, he’d run into the tip of Iori’s foot (preempt, not necessarily reactive anti-air.) Other than that, I’d try to keep a strong neutral game and be ready to DP (but it’ll be tough since Kim has a more standard, quick hop.) Maybe try just standing outside the range of j.C so that if he hops or hyper hops forward, he’ll whiff if he wants to commit to that attack and maybe hit him with a special or a sweep from outside their optimal range. But then Kim is still able to use other attacks like j.D or j.CD for horizontal and air to ground range so be careful.
EDIT: Oh the corner. If he does it repeatedly just either cl.C the proceeding one or DP if it’s that predictable. It’s not a prefect block string so there should be gaps or means to get out or punish it.
There’s no official frame data reference for the console release so all we have is the data from 4 characters that was compiled manually from a few SRK members. If you’re concerned with Shen, then hopefully you can feel things out like how his qcf+P is probably -1 on block since it can only be punished with command grabs (unless you fully charge the C version, then it can be mad unsafe), st.C/st.D are probably slightly negative or neutral at best, cr.C is unsafe on hit against a grounded opponent, and so forth.
Sounds like you’re having trouble getting in with Shen, but you’ve got plenty of ways to approach or to play defensively. You can use either j.D or j.CD from a forward hop at maximum range to close the distance on the opponent, but both moves are also wonderful attacks to utilize from a neutral hop in order to air-to-air the opponent or hit them as they move closer to you. Shen doesn’t have a DP, but with cr.C and air-to-airs along with occasional tripguard anti-airs (which are somewhat iffy with Shen), you should be able to intercept the opponent in most cases. Since you’re using Shen on anchor, don’t be afraid to buffer qcf qcf+P to punish projectiles or big whiffs and the EX version can stop short hops if you can buffer it in time. Both versions cause a hard knockdown and let you get back in on the opponent. Otherwise he’s got just about everything he needs to approach characters, including his projectile deflector against zoners.
You’ve got to feel out how to approach the opponent, be it by a hop attack, running forward and going straight into an attack (or when close, running into his EX command grab which can lead into big damage), walking cautiously while being ready to block or anti-air, or attracting the opponent to move in towards Shen.
Also it may help to break down some of the common spacial ranges and thus Shen’s options from them:
Fullscreen you can’t really threaten the opponent with any attack, but it should be easy to deflect or hop projectiles on reaction or even whiff a special to build meter if needed. Aside from projectiles and other fullscreen attacks, there isn’t much to worry about at this range.
At just under halfscreen’s length, you’re able to threaten with qcf qcf+P which should discourage projectile pokes as well as other long specials such as Vice’s hcf+K, or with the EX version you can be on the lookout for hops or just about any whiff to punish, just as long as you’re not overtly buffering which can lead to the DM being baited. This is about the range where you can hyper hop into j.D/j.CD to hit the opponent at the maximum length of the attack, meaning that it becomes difficult to anti-air these approaches from the ground without DPing him. Likewise, the opponent may hop forward and so the neutral hops and anti-airs I mentioned become more relevant at this range. Still, this specific range falls outside of st.D range even so there isn’t much poking you can do without moving in closer.
Just outside of your cl.C range is where st.C, st.D, and st.B become wonderful and at a moment’s notice you could run or walk or hop into cr.B/cl.C’s active ranges. This range is especially fun since it allows you to use Shen’s godlike st.A as a fast hop check that carries little risk on whiff, and by doing seemingly random st.As you can even hit characters out of their longer pokes and specials, such as EX Kyo’s rekka or whatever other move an opponent may toss out. St.C can do the same with one point of autoguard, though of course it has more recovery and startup so it requires tighter timing and distance to use properly.
One you’re up in the opponent’s face you’ve got his EX command grab, CD counterhits, j.C, cl.C, and cr.B all for dealing damage or leading into HD damage if you’ve got it, and all of his (good) blockstrings are safe or plus on block, so go wild.
I’m way more interested in hit boxes than frame data, someone told me that with a JTag xbox you can do something to see them.
Actually Shen’s frame data along with a few other characters are available on the following site. I posted here last night in the thread, but I guess nobody saw it… sigh…
My mistake, I only found the list of jump arcs because I am blind.
Big thanks for posting that, was about to do Shen’s data this weekend along with Elisabeth but this saved me a ton of time.
I don’t read Japanese but is there any Hitbox data on that site?
Thanks for the detailed breakdown, much appreciated =)
what blockstrings are you talking about though? I dont really have any Shen stuff in my disposal aside from damaging combos <_<
I’ve seen vids of stuff like cl.C> f.B>qcf+C~D>run up command grab and stuff but thats pretty much my only string/trick…
ok can someone makes his understandable? coz I have no clue on which move is which ~___~
Good shit on that Kim write up Laban. Since launch (First KOF game too) I have pretty much exclusively using Kula, K, and Iori and I wanted to start branching out and learning other characters to understand the game more and Kim was someone I was really interested him. I think I have a little better understanding of the character now because of that write up.
Who are some other characters that excell in constant safe pressure?
I don’t know the exact frame advantage from feinting from f.B but it’s been improved (and the frame data source mentions something about st.CD being feinted and giving +5 on block or something, couldn’t tell exactly) but it feels generally safe to do something afterward and there’s more than just throwing afterward. Some players like to try to counterpoke Shen afterward but you can usually slap them first with st.B or st.C or even hop forward/neutrally to beat certain counterpokes. You can also move forward or run back in into another cl.C since its activation range is huge, and you can make this frametrap even tighter say if you do* cl.C > feint > walk forward slightly > cl.C > f.B * so you can mix up the feints a little even. There’s also his cr.B > cr.C link which is best at point blank so that the cr.C actually hits, but you can also chain that into f.B and feint into whatever. You can keep his blockstrings really simplistic and brickwall the opponent with safe blockstrings that are easy to confirm off of, and when pushed out just make a smart followup. Shen’s close options are good so have at it.
On one more note, feinting an attack makes him pretty safe against any sort of CD counters so you don’t need to worry about them much at all with Shen. So you can also go for a guard break fairly safely, especially if you land a decent blockstring like *j.C > cl.C > f.B > feint > cr.D > f.B > feint/qcf+D *because the opponent was being overly cautious/defensive.
Claw Iori, Hwa Jai, Terry has some good safe pressure(and a very balanced character if you ask me), Ralf, Mature, BOTH Kyo’s, Shen has safe pressure via feints/cancels but not just doing a special move, and Mr. Karate.
Good safe pressure? Boy… Definitely Billy and then EX Kyo, EX Iori, Mature, Shen, Claw Iori, and Saiki. The others Nagot mentioned just have really good pokes but not really good pressure. At least I don’t consider one good poke and fireball blockstrings to be really good pressure.
Serious question, does this game have any sort of input leniency? In UMvC3 I mess up RDPs a good 9/10 times and then I’ll play this to practice Kyo combos and notice Im doing RDPs perfectly 10/10 times. I can do it in combos or by itself but in Marvel I just cant.
There are some shortcuts and stuff like that going on. For example, when I was doing some of Elizabeth’s trials, I was suppose to drive cancel the dp into the qcf but I kept getting super, but to get the drive cancel, I just go from the df to f.